TOC Liveries

[D854_Tiger]

It seems the new WM livery (which looks like someone's sick by the way) has come about thanks to the provinces (regions) being given a say in managing their railways and, like a dog is to a lamppost, they just can't resist leaving their mark.

 

This is all well and good on an all shacks between Dorridge and Stourbridge but not much use, or appropriate, turning up at Euston, where in any case we already have TfL keen to urinate over everything.

 

Equally, we are told DfT are now poking their ore in over what the TOCs can do with their trains, Scotland wants a go and no doubt soon the Mayor of Manchester will be doing the same thing, for no better reason than upsetting Liverpool, which is always a popular sport up there.

 

Surely the whole point of privatisation is for the TOCs to not just put their money on the line but also their reputations and how are they going to do that if they can no longer be identified.

 

Then there's also one very good reason why the TOCs should be readily identifiable and that's to help the passengers, increasingly armed only with a TOC-only value ticket, identify their correct train.

 

Armed with a discount ticket for Euston purchased from some super cute Japanese inspired website, what use is a train with West Midlands written all over it that looks as if it shouldn't be allowed any further than Smethwick.

[Legend]

I think the ScotRail image being constant despite who the franchise owner is was one of the best things they've done up here. So no matter who runs the service the train will still be in the ScotRail spots livery. Saves changing colours after every change of franchise

[phil-b259]

I think the ScotRail image being constant despite who the franchise owner is was one of the best things they've done up here. So no matter who runs the service the train will still be in the ScotRail spots livery. Saves changing colours after every change of franchise

 

Exactly. A new paint scheme does absolutely nothing to make the trains run to time, provide more capacity or a more frequent service.

 

Railways are NOT like cans of Baked beans - most people have no real choice about using them, and if they do its more a choice between a train and another mode of transport (i.e. car / plane) and no amount of glitzy free market 'rebranding' nonsense will change that.

 

The ScotRail idea is what should be replicated - one common livery for Long Distance InterCity services and another for regional services. By all means have a sticker on them saying "Operated by" but leave spending cash on things that actually make a difference to users.

[D854_Tiger]

Exactly. A new paint scheme does absolutely nothing to make the trains run to time, provide more capacity or a more frequent service.

 

Railways are NOT like cans of Baked beans - most people have no real choice about using them, and if they do its more a choice between a train and another mode of transport (i.e. car / plane) and no amount of glitzy free market 'rebranding' nonsense will change that.

 

The ScotRail idea is what should be replicated - one common livery for Long Distance InterCity services and another for regional services. By all means have a sticker on them saying "Operated by" but leave spending cash on things that actually make a difference to users.

 

Except we have three operators for London here in the West Midlands each offering their own fares.

 

It might be an idea for the passengers to be able to identify their trains correctly, there's no mistaking a LM train from a Virgin one currently and it's unreasonable to expect the passengers to know the distinction between a class 350 and a Pendolino.

 

Like it or loath it, we do have a privatised railway, there's no point pretending we're back in the days of Network South East, Regional Railways and Inter-City.

[newbryford]

Exactly. A new paint scheme does absolutely nothing to make the trains run to time, provide more capacity or a more frequent service.

 

 

 

But a new paint (or vinyl) scheme does make many think they are new trains.......

 

Cheers,

Mick

[cal.n]

The branding and the livery are a big part of showing a new franchise holder is making a difference. It's not an accident that the new Arriva hasn't applied the new Northern branding to a Pacer yet and it doubt it ever will, but the newer 319s, 158s, new 331s and 195s are mostly in the new livery. Therefore you associate the Arriva brand with nicer journeys.

 

But the point still stands, a splash of paint can't make it faster or hold more people

[Talltim]

Being in Sheffield I hadn't realised that Northern had a new livery!

[russ p]

They should have kept the last BR liveries and just had small decals saying who operates the franchise

McDonald's are franchised but the branding and colours are the same the world over

There is hardly any post BR liveries I like and these with so called swooshes are foul!

[JDW]

I'm not sure we should go as far as one livery for all "Intercity" franchises, another for "Regional Railways" franchises etc, but certainly I agree that the ScotRail idea is a good one, it gives consistency and makes trains easily identifiable.  OK, the scheme can be changed, modernised, etc, but changing it every few years for the sake of it is pointless, passengers just want their trains to be clean and tidy and don't really care if it is blue and green (Northern Spirit), turquoise with cream doors (ATN), purple and white (Northern) or white and purple (new Northern) so long as they do the job.

[jim.snowdon]

Branding is all very well where there is competition and a need to differentiate your product from the opposition's, but there are few places on the railway network where competition exists between operators. Most of the time, as a passenger, you have to put up with whatever the incumbent operator provides, with no alternative other than to drive or not travel at all. The colour of the train is immaterial to a large extent, other than that it should be clean.

 

Jim

[eastwestdivide]

There's a recent article on liveries and corporate identity at

https://thebeautyoftransport.com/2017/08/30/corporatisation-and-its-undoing-part-1-visual-identities-of-britains-big-five-transport-operators-on-the-railway-1997/

with part 2 to follow, probably next Thursday, as that's when that blog seems to publish

[Reorte]

The livery can affect peoples' behaviour and whether they'll use a train or not - aesthetics are important. Does it look, from the outside, like something you want to travel in? You can logically reply "that makes no sense, you can't see inside it to tell," but the brain doesn't work like that. And just because it's all somewhat subjective doesn't mean you ignore it at your peril. As an example in my case the turquoise and cream Arriva trains I see (presumably) heading off towards Wales do rather give the impression to me that the inside is going to be very uncomfortable plasticy, it conjours up images of those studded plastic floors for some reason, and doesn't make me feel like that's a train I particularly want to get on. If it gives the impression "that's a nice way to travel", more likely. I'd guess that that has less of an effect on commuter trains.

[JDW]

That's certainly true, Reorte, and you're right in that some liveries and styles say "class", others say "cheap", etc., but like with Scotrail I think that specifying a good (yes, that's subjective!) livery for the franchise would be better than letting each operator come in and start splashing whatever branding they like all over, especially when they change so often - look at the Central Trains franchise years ago, with various ex-MML and ex-TPE stock in all sorts of colours with bits of Central logos added on and bits of livery blanked out and so on, which to me creates an awful impression to a lay-passenger.  As you say, its important to give a good first impression, and too much change often spoils that I think.  Of course, that doesn't need to stop the brand evolving.

[RfDforever]

The new TOC is named "West Midlands Trains" but the plan is to run it as two units, one called "West Coast" and one, confusingly in my opinion, "West Midlands". The latter will, it seems, have input from W. Midlands councils, but the former obviously not. Eventually, they will become separate TOCs, it seems - or the West Coast one might be merged with the inter city franchise of the same name. I am sure everyone knows this, but...

One would perhaps expect the two business units to have different liveries, and, as the insipid livery mentioned in the OP was "inspired" by West Midlands council I am intrigued.

Will a 350/1 or /3 used on the Northampton-Milton Keynes - London line be repainted from LM livery into WM Council  livery, then again into West Coast livery, before receiving a third restyle when it moves to another TOC when the 225 (or 265 depending on quote) new coaches arrive? Or is there another, so far unannounced, livery for the Northampton line?

Whatever one's views on train liveries, may I express the opinion that the present  LM livery of glossy black for platform  lamp-posts, seats and other furniture may not be the best choice? Certainly in Northampton it gets dark and even rains and it's surprising that there has been no objection from disabled groups about the visibility of these obstructions  in those conditions.

[Gerald Henriksen]

This is all well and good on an all shacks between Dorridge and Stourbridge but not much use, or appropriate, turning up at Euston, where in any case we already have TfL keen to urinate over everything.

 

And why would a West Midlands commuter train be running to Euston?

 

 

Then there's also one very good reason why the TOCs should be readily identifiable and that's to help the passengers, increasingly armed only with a TOC-only value ticket, identify their correct train.

And how woud have your average passenger in the past told the difference between various First group trains that all looked the same regardless of franchise?

[Luke Piewalker]

None of this explains the abomination that is Virgin Trains East Coast livery... it's like they want the dirt to show up

[Davexoc]

The new TOC is named "West Midlands Trains" but the plan is to run it as two units, one called "West Coast" and one, confusingly in my opinion, "West Midlands". The latter will, it seems, have input from W. Midlands councils, but the former obviously not. Eventually, they will become separate TOCs, it seems - or the West Coast one might be merged with the inter city franchise of the same name. I am sure everyone knows this, but...

One would perhaps expect the two business units to have different liveries, and, as the insipid livery mentioned in the OP was "inspired" by West Midlands council I am intrigued.

Will a 350/1 or /3 used on the Northampton-Milton Keynes - London line be repainted from LM livery into WM Council  livery, then again into West Coast livery, before receiving a third restyle when it moves to another TOC when the 225 (or 265 depending on quote) new coaches arrive? Or is there another, so far unannounced, livery for the Northampton line?

So you get on a WMT service heading to London and just after Rugby it diverges towards Northampton. Now Northampton is in the East Midlands and you're now heading south on a West Midlands service, confusing? Definitely.....

 

DfT could insist on standard liveries with branding. We could have a blue and grey with a stylised WM for the West Midlands, and perhaps a Raspberry Ripple style livery for longer distance trains. Hey London could even go for a toothpaste livery too.......

 

Dave