12 Wheel Pullmans + Bournemouth Belle train pack

[robmcg]

Och Aye,

 

Allus keep yurr eyes peeled Laddie, an' watch oot fur yurr bits droppin' off......

 

 

In the proud tradition of exactitude native to this thread I must observe that the train pack I received recently, also in NZ., from Hattons, was not damaged but one of the loco cab roof-ventilator halves was missing, for which I initially blamed myself but am now content to blame the English.

 

It is not visible in the view below (apologies if I repeat the pic) thanks also to Ceptic for the lovely images of the carriages themselves.

 

Also may enquire as to the relevance of 1st class kitchen car 'Monaco' and 3rd class parlour car 'No 98' to any express trains, as these are or have been available from Hattons, as well as the supplimentary carriage pack, the latter having needed to be pre-ordered (yes! I actually had pre-ordered!). I expect a video within the next while, of the six or seven cars behind 'Alfred the Great'. I doubt any of my unrebuilt Bulleids would haul such a load without slipping, if in fact light Pacifics ever hauled the Bournemouth Belle.

 

 

Rob

[Ceptic]

Hi.

Sorry to learn of your missing part, robmcg. I trust you have searched every nook and cranny, inside and outside the box. This does add to the growing list of bits dropping off. I do sympathise, as I've had the same problem.

Is it possible to make one yourself, using the other as a pattern ?.

 

From what I can gather from Antony M. Ford's book on the 12-wheelers, 'Monaco' was initially a SE&CR 'Continental Express' boat train car (until 1924). I would make a broad guess that it remained on these workings under the auspices of the SR until the outbreak of hostilities. (this needs further investigation) Requesitioned for NAFFI use during WW2 and after, returning to SR Eastern Section & BR(S) Eastern Division for use on the 'Night Ferry' and Folkestone boat trains. The book doesn't list it as running in the B/Belle formations, nor do my lists.

 

Car No. 98 certainly did. I've got it listed for 1947/52/57/58. Antony Ford's book lists it's years in the B/Belle formation, pretty much continuously, from 1947 to 1960.

 

Now, everyone, the question is this... Have Hornby released this model (R4385) 'Car No. 98' yet ??.

Their 2009 catalogue shows a photo with release date of 4th. Quarter.

In the 2010 catalogue, it's vanished, without trace ! !. On their website it's listed, but 'Not in stock'.

Wa'as happened ??. Have I missed the boat ? .

 

As far as Bulleid's light pacifics hauling the B/Belle, there have been many recorded instances, photographic, or otherwise.

 

The pics I have at hand are :-

 

34061 '73 SQUADRON' (Orig.) 29/5/1950), Lymington Junc'n, with the headboard as Hornby's AtG train-pack.

34109 'SIR TRAFFORD LEIGH-MALLORY' (Orig.) 31/5/1954, Hinton Admiral, with later, oblong headboard.

34059 'SIR ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR' (Orig.) 26/8/1956, Talbot Heath (B'm'th / Poole boundary)

34061 '73 SQUADRON' (Orig.) 27/3/1960, Holes Bay Junc'n (Poole), via the 'Old road'.

34009 'LYME REGIS' (Orig.) 3/4/1960. Parkstone bank, via the 'Old road'.

34046 'BRAUNTON' (Reb'lt) 22/10/1962. Boscombe.

34009 'LYME REGIS' (Reb'lt) 7/4/1966. Pirbright Junc'n.

 

I'm sure there are many more records of the light pacifics in charge of the Bournemouth Belle. If anyone has their own lists / observations. please post 'em in.

 

Regards to All.

[Ian J.]

Now, everyone, the question is this... Have Hornby released this model (R4385) 'Car No. 98' yet ??.

Their 2009 catalogue shows a photo with release date of 4th. Quarter.

In the 2010 catalogue, it's vanished, without trace ! !. On their website it's listed, but 'Not in stock'.

Wa'as happened ??. Have I missed the boat ?

 

Depending on which shop websites you look at it appears that 98 is due end of June or during July. Hattons don't have a pic of a model, just the photo Hornby originally put out when it was announced, so I think it's probably safe to say that it hasn't hit the shops yet, but may very well do within the next few days or weeks.

[robmcg]

 

Sorry to learn of your missing part, robmcg. I trust you have searched every nook and cranny, inside and outside the box. This does add to the growing list of bits dropping off. I do sympathise, as I've had the same problem.

Is it possible to make one yourself, using the other as a pattern ?.

 

 

Thanks for the reply and the info. I'm sure a carefully cut rectangle of black photo album card would make a suitable replacement cab roof ventilator cover, it has similar texture and lacks the ridge on the sliding edges but would probably be almost indistinguishable from the lost one.

 

Hattons have car no 98 available on pre-order, described as 'due late June 2010' in the heading but 'unknown' in the text, so who knows?

 

http://www.ehattons.com/StockDetail.aspx?SID=25814

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

[Bill]

As far as Bulleid's light pacifics hauling the B/Belle, there have been many recorded instances, photographic, or otherwise.

 

The pics I have at hand are :-

 

34061 '73 SQUADRON' (Orig.) 29/5/1950), Lymington Junc'n, with the headboard as Hornby's AtG train-pack.

34109 'SIR TRAFFORD LEIGH-MALLORY' (Orig.) 31/5/1954, Hinton Admiral, with later, oblong headboard.

34059 'SIR ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR' (Orig.) 26/8/1956, Talbot Heath (B'm'th / Poole boundary)

34061 '73 SQUADRON' (Orig.) 27/3/1960, Holes Bay Junc'n (Poole), via the 'Old road'.

34009 'LYME REGIS' (Orig.) 3/4/1960. Parkstone bank, via the 'Old road'.

34046 'BRAUNTON' (Reb'lt) 22/10/1962. Boscombe.

34009 'LYME REGIS' (Reb'lt) 7/4/1966. Pirbright Junc'n.

 

I'm sure there are many more records of the light pacifics in charge of the Bournemouth Belle. If anyone has their own lists / observations. please post 'em in.

 

Regards to All.

 

To reassure one and all - Both Unrebuilt and Rebuilt Bulleid Light Pacifics sometimes pulled the Bournemouth Belle - Sure the major traction was in the form of the Merchant Navy Class but each week once or twice (and sometimes even thrice) a Light Pacific would be in charge. How do I know? I went to school in Woking and for Three years from 1957 to 1960 or so checked out the Bournemouth Belle each day during term time as it came blasting through the station. Eager to get an eyeful and an earful of whatever was pulling it on that day. It was truly a glorious thing of beauty to behold! I no longer have any records of what pulled what and when but at the very least a good 30% of available LP power took its turn.

[kiltedsignaller]

It would seem Hornby has grossly under-supplied YET AGAIN: Not an add-on coach pack to be had in the land!! Grrr

[7013]

If Car 96 and Sunbeam had the same bodies as prototypes and were reclassified as was pointed out Hornby are spot on, if they were not the same then Hornby have just been very lazy and will only serve to alienate modellers. With prices rising to all time highs one would expect the companies to strive to continue to develop models not rehash carriages (assuming they are not prototypically the same).

[Ceptic]

It would seem Hornby has grossly under-supplied YET AGAIN: Not an add-on coach pack to be had in the land!! Grrr

 

These folks may still have them.......maybe.

 

http://www.modelfair.com/acatalog/index.html

 

Search - R4381

[Ceptic]

Depending on which shop websites you look at it appears that 98 is due end of June or during July. Hattons don't have a pic of a model, just the photo Hornby originally put out when it was announced, so I think it's probably safe to say that it hasn't hit the shops yet, but may very well do within the next few days or weeks.

 

 

Thanks for that reassurance Ian and robmcg.

I had done a search through Hattons 'New releases' going back to January, prior to my posting, but nothing came up.

Looking in the wrong place.....as usual. I'll have to keep ma eyes extra peeled.

 

Cheers.

[Oldddudders]

Thanks for that reassurance Ian and robmcg.

I had done a search through Hattons 'New releases' going back to January, pror to my posting, but nothing came up.

Looking in the wrong place.....as usual. I'll have to keep ma eyes extra peeled.

 

Cheers.

I think Hattons services include a rather useful feature, enabling you to receive an email when the item comes into stock - but with no obligation to buy. Might be worth setting this up for your Pullman, perhaps.

[Ian J.]

Got my set today. The main thing of note is that car 95 is a steel sided example of the brake, as contrasted with matchboard car 94 from the train pack:

 

 

 

I am not in a place to review these coaches for accuracy, but they do look nice

[Ceptic]

If Car 96 and Sunbeam had the same bodies as prototypes and were reclassified as was pointed out Hornby are spot on, if they were not the same then Hornby have just been very lazy and will only serve to alienate modellers. With prices rising to all time highs one would expect the companies to strive to continue to develop models not rehash carriages (assuming they are not prototypically the same).

 

 

Given Hornby's time and effort, not to mention the research into the Pullmans cars' complicated history, I would say that Hornby have earnestly strived to produce accurate models of these cars, and haven't cut corners in production, just to save a few coppers.

 

Car No. 98 was/is a 3rd. Class Parlour Car, re-modelled (to quote Antony M. Ford), in 1947, for use on the B/Belle, from 1st. Class Parlour Car 'MILAN'.

The re-classification only involved the interior layout, 26 1st. class seats increased to 38 3rd. class, (with the removal of the Pantry ?. We'll have to see whether Hornby have altered their interior ?) The exterior body-work would have remained the same as before.

'SUNBEAM' was of the same batch & design as 'MILAN', and remained a 1st. class Parlour Car until withdrawal.

 

I hope this helps ?.

 

For a fuller history, why not buy the book ?

 

Pullman Profile No.1

THE 12-WHEEL CARS

By Antony M. Ford

 

Publisher, Noodle Books / Ian Allan. ISBN 978-1-906419-00-4

 

Regards.

[Ian J.]

I can't vouch for 98, but 96 and Sunbeam seem to be exactly the same internally. It's very difficult to tell though.

[kiltedsignaller]

Got my set today. The main thing of note is that car 95 is a steel sided example of the brake, as contrasted with matchboard car 94 from the train pack:

 

I am not in a place to review these coaches for accuracy, but they do look nice

 

 

Car 95 IS accurate, and DOES look nice. Ex 1st Class car ARCADIA.

[Ceptic]

Got my set today. The main thing of note is that car 95 is a steel sided example of the brake, as contrasted with matchboard car 94 from the train pack:

 

 

 

I am not in a place to review these coaches for accuracy, but they do look nice

 

Thanks for posting your pics in, Ian J, and showing the different versions, and, as you forecast, a 5th. moulding.

As said, Hornby are going for it, regarding accuracy....Well done Hornby .

[Ceptic]

I can't vouch for 98, but 96 and Sunbeam seem to be exactly the same internally. It's very difficult to tell though.

 

 

Just been looking through Julian Morel's 'Pullman' book*, and the appendix 1 shows that Car No. 96 ( 36 seat, 3rd. class Parlour) was converted from 1st. class car (Parlour with Pantry) 'SILVIA', in 1947, for use on the Bournemouth Belle.

'SILVIA' was again, of the same batch as 'SUNBEAM' and 'MILAN'.

 

* 'PULLMAN' by Julian Morel

Publisher - David & Charles, 1983, ISBN 0-7153-8382-5

 

It always pays to have a book on the subject, (Lord knows where these authors get their info' from) and photos, to refer to.

 

Regards.

[craigwelsh]

It always pays to have a book (Lord knows where these authors get their info from ?), and photos, to refer to.

 

Regards.

Original research of company records, private collections and asking around. Its amazing what you can dig up if you put the time into it. Its taken two years but i've finally got a photo of the back of the station I want to model for example! Oh and Swindon work drawings for the class 14 took some work at the NRM and I need another afternoon to try and find the bonnet drawings.

 

The Pullman books coming out now really are spot on as were the two Blue Pullman books, the supplement just showing how much extra turns up after you 'complete' a work like that!

 

Hornby are doing really well with these though for commercial RTR and someone high up at the company must want his own Bournemouth Belle; wonder if I can convince them they want the ordinary coaches in the South Wales Pullman to go with the bar car too..

[robmcg]

Just been looking through Julian Morel's 'Pullman' book*, and the appendix 1 shows that Car No. 96 ( 36 seat, 3rd. class Parlour) was converted from 1st. class car (Parlour with Pantry) 'SILVIA', in 1947, for use on the Bournemouth Belle.

'SILVIA' was again, of the same batch as 'SUNBEAM' and 'MILAN'.

 

* 'PULLMAN' by Julian Morel

Publisher - David & Charles, 1983, ISBN 0-7153-8382-5

 

It always pays to have a book on the subject, (Lord knows where these authors get their info' from) and photos, to refer to.

 

Regards.

 

On the subject of 'Bournemouth Belle' (and perhaps other SR Pullman trains) could someone offer a representative order of carriages from the 6 produced by Hornby so far, and perhaps also car no 98 should it appear? I might make a short video showing the loco and train passing slowly and imagine that the brake 3rds are at each end, but am not sure of the likely order of the remainder. I suspect kitchen 1st in the middle-rear

 

Rob

[Mike at C&M]

Not quite true that there are no more R4381s left on the shelves of this land.

 

C&M Models in Carlisle have one set left which we will sell at £99.99, plus postage, upon quoting RMWeb.

We also have 1 of R2819, the Bournemouth Belle set with the Britannia loco at £169.99, plus postage.

 

Phone us on 01228 514689 during shop hours.

[Ceptic]

On the subject of 'Bournemouth Belle' (and perhaps other SR Pullman trains) could someone offer a representative order of carriages from the 6 produced by Hornby so far, and perhaps also car no 98 should it appear? I might make a short video showing the loco and train passing slowly and imagine that the brake 3rds are at each end, but am not sure of the likely order of the remainder. I suspect kitchen 1st in the middle-rear

 

Rob

 

 

Hi Rob.

If a train consisted of Pullman cars only, it was desirable to have a Kitchen car adjacent / coupled to a Parlour car, be the cars 1st. or 3rd. / 2nd. class. So, given this, there would be several Kitchen cars in the train's formation.

 

I'm pretty sure that questions asking of the Pullmam train formations of the other BR regions, and some of the Southern have been answered elsewhere on this forum.

 

A (very short) B/Belle train made up of Hornby's 12-wheelers, released to date, would be much the same as depicted on the train / coach packs' box sleeves.

 

Loco + Parlour Brake Third No.94 + Parlour Third No.96 + Kitchen First 'MALAGA' + Parlour First 'SUNBEAM' + Kitchen Third No.45 + (Parlour Third No.98) + Parlour Brake Third No.95.

The only difference being, was that the first class cars were normally in the centre of the train.

 

Other 'regular' 12-wheeled B/Belle cars were Kitchen Firsts 'HIBERNIA' and 'ROSALIND', Kitchen Thirds Nos.17 and 47 and Parlour Third No.294.

 

Regards.

[robmcg]

[ ... ]

 

Loco + Parlour Brake Third No.94 + Parlour Third No.96 + Kitchen First 'MALAGA' + Parlour First 'SUNBEAM' + Kitchen Third No.45 + (Parlour Third No.98) + Parlour Brake Third No.95.

The only difference being, was that the first class cars were normally in the centre of the train.

 

Other 'regular' 12-wheeled B/Belle cars were Kitchen Firsts 'HIBERNIA' and 'ROSALIND', Kitchen Thirds Nos.17 and 47 and Parlour Third No.294.

 

Regards.

 

 

Thanks, that all seems good and logical, a video will be made soon, after a photo being made currently of 'The Heart of Midlothian' on my non-location-specific station scene where platforms are staggered and fast and slow lines are regulaly confused!

 

For what it's worth, the A4 60025 'Falcon' with headboard and paint on lamps is drying as I write, and there is a bit of ambient room light as I write.. looking good, with corridor tender (BRb crest) and crimson-cream carriages, three Hornby pack versions with excellent very 'dirty' crimson or custard, together with 4 Bachmann Mk 1s.. we shall soon see how it all comes together. I mounted the engine headboard in the high position on the smokebox knowing full well that it was probably 'normally' in the lower, but at least one 2009 'Heart' with 60009 has it mounted high...

 

It's quite time consuming setting up a seven carriage 'Bournemouth Belle' (I might add the 12 wheel kitchen 1st 'Monaco' to add substance to the passing train on the video-to-come)... but great fun.

 

Rob

[Ian J.]

For any who might be having difficulty obtaining the extension pack R4381, it appears that The Signal Box in Rochester has some in stock as of today - http://www.thesignalbox.co.uk/index_new.php?pg=3&p_cat_id=43&prod_id=8439

 

Of course if they've just had a delivery it may also mean that other shops could have had deliveries too.

[exet1095]

If you're in Oxford, Graham in Boswell's has one R4381 left too. No connection, other than as a satisfied customer who bought the other one he had in stock.

 

Paul

[robmcg]

Sorry to learn of your missing part, robmcg. I trust you have searched every nook and cranny, inside and outside the box. This does add to the growing list of bits dropping off. I do sympathise, as I've had the same problem.

Is it possible to make one yourself, using the other as a pattern ?.

 

 

As tends to happen when preparing recent Hornby models for use, by me anyway, the missing cab roof ventilator cover for 70009 Alfred the Great was never visible until today, when, after exhaustive searches of box, loco, tender, carpet and so on, it appeared from nowhere .. when I turned engine and tender gently upside down for 4-pin plug connection. ... perhaps it had been stuck somehow out of sight in the cab? ... it's rather large really.

 

There may be some little-understood laws of nature pertaining to lost parts...

 

As if to remind me of universal laws pertaining to myself, one of the wires from the harness to the male part of the plug-socket detached from the plug when I was gently coaxing the harness into alignment. I blame myself for attempting this on a day when the room temperature was perhaps below 15C. Far to cold for wires to bend.... (sigh)

It appears to be an interference fit so I have pushed it back in, and the loco runs well. I seriously do not like these 4-pin connectors, Hornby!

 

At least none of the boiler pipes controls whistle etc have been damaged during several loco-tender inversions. And seven 12 wheel Pullmans await unpacking for a video.

 

Now how to attach the headboard again.... for a video made in a style similar to this, of the Hornby 'Heart of Midlothian' pack;

 

 

Rob

[robmcg]

For any who might be having difficulty obtaining the extension pack R4381, it appears that The Signal Box in Rochester has some in stock as of today - http://www.thesignal...43&prod_id=8439

 

Of course if they've just had a delivery it may also mean that other shops could have had deliveries too.

 

Recieved supplementary carriage pack after pre-order from Hattons and finally made this video.. carriages all excellent, added a two 8-wheelers for video, and 12-wheel 'Monaco'. Loco had a few issues, a loose wire into 4-pin plug and coupling rod fouled connecting rod, but runs beautifully now, plenty of adhesion for the 9-total tried so far.