12 Wheel Pullmans + Bournemouth Belle train pack

[kiltedsignaller]

Dirty

Have just ordered a set + Monaco

 

 

I seem to have mislaid last year's Hornby Catalogue.

 

Can someone please remind me: is there due to be an extension set of three coaches to go with the Bournemouth Belle?

[Ian J.]

I seem to have mislaid last year's Hornby Catalogue.

 

Can someone please remind me: is there due to be an extension set of three coaches to go with the Bournemouth Belle?

Yes, R4381 http://www.Hornby.com/passenger-rolling-stock/r4381/

[kiltedsignaller]

Yes, R4381 http://www.Hornby.co...ng-stock/r4381/

 

 

Thank you, Ian, you're most kind.

[PrestburyJack]

Looking at both the Hornby website and Hattons, there appears to be only 3 different 12-wheel bodyshells available as single items and in train & coach packs - Brake, 1st Kitchen and 3rd Parlour - am I right, or are any other body types available that I have missed?

[Forester]

Looking at both the Hornby website and Hattons, there appears to be only 3 different 12-wheel bodyshells available as single items and in train & coach packs - Brake, 1st Kitchen and 3rd Parlour - am I right, or are any other body types available that I have missed?

 

I believe you are right. Also they all appear to have panelling, with no flush side option. Quite a lot of 12 wheelers were plated in the Fifties.

Despite the large range of Pullmans now on offer it is quite difficult for modellers of the late 1950s era to find suitable Pullmans, 8 or 12 wheel, off the shelf without at least changing crests.

[kiltedsignaller]

Looking at both the Hornby website and Hattons, there appears to be only 3 different 12-wheel bodyshells available as single items and in train & coach packs - Brake, 1st Kitchen and 3rd Parlour - am I right, or are any other body types available that I have missed?

 

 

Until I bought Antony Ford's excellent book on the 12 Wheeler Pullmans, they were an unknown quantity to me. His research is fascinating and I can quite understand why it seems there will only be the three bodyshells from Hornby. Each individual car had its own history, most going through at least one rebuild; the 3rd Parlour, for instance, was one of several which started as named first class cars. No 96 was SYLVIA.

[kiltedsignaller]

Until I bought Antony Ford's excellent book on the 12 Wheeler Pullmans, they were an unknown quantity to me. His research is fascinating and I can quite understand why it seems there will only be the three bodyshells from Hornby. Each individual car had its own history, most going through at least one rebuild; the 3rd Parlour, for instance, was one of several which started as named first class cars. No 96 was SYLVIA.

 

 

I notice that the proposed set of three accompanying coaches to the Bournemouth Belle includes Car No 45, described as Third Class Kitchen. According to A M Ford, it was very different from the First Class Kitchen, and so a fourth bodyshell will be necessary; to begin with, the doors are flush with the sides, and not cut up into the roof. It started life "used by the LNER as a Restaurant Car", but it is accurately included in the Bournemouth Belle consist.

 

I wonder: does the double-spread photograph on page 82/83 of the 2010 Catalogue hold a clue??

[Garry D100]

Can anyone tell me if its easy to remove the Bournemouth Belle roof signs or are they fixed?

 

Thanks

Garry

 

 

[Ceptic]

Looking at both the Hornby website and Hattons, there appears to be only 3 different 12-wheel bodyshells available as single items and in train & coach packs - Brake, 1st Kitchen and 3rd Parlour - am I right, or are any other body types available that I have missed?

 

 

Hmmm....Good question.

If you've got the 2010 catalogue to hand, have a close look at the photospread heading pages 82/3.

It shows the observation car, 12 wheeled Brake car No.94, and, nearest to the camera, a 12 wheeler with a combination of details not featured on any of the current releases.

The vestibule door has a full length oval glass, but without a cut-away roof cornice, similar to the brake. It's not a brake though, as the mainlight window spacings are different (narrower). Also, the panelling surrounding the oval toilet window is made up of 5 sections, instead of 4.

Possibly, this is a pre-production mock-up, or maybe there's a fourth model awaiting the go ahead ?

[kiltedsignaller]

Hmmm....Good question.

If you've got the 2010 catalogue to hand, have a close look at the photospread heading pages 82/3.

It shows the observation car, 12 wheeled Brake car No.94, and, nearest to the camera, a 12 wheeler with a combination of details not featured on any of the current releases.

The vestibule door has a full length oval glass, but without a cut-away roof cornice, similar to the brake. It's not a brake though, as the mainlight window spacings are different (narrower). Also, the panelling surrounding the oval toilet window is made up of 5 sections, instead of 4.

Possibly, this is a pre-production mock-up, or maybe there's a fourth model awaiting the go ahead ?

 

 

Am I right, or a meringue?

 

Your thinking is like mine, Mr Ceptic; we must watch this space.

[Ceptic]

Can anyone tell me if its easy to remove the Bournemouth Belle roof signs or are they fixed?

 

Thanks

Garry

 

 

 

 

Errrr.... They seem to be fixed.

If you're really desperate, you could unfix 'em with a sharpish pointy thing and a touch of dexterity.

[Garry D100]

Hattons have now put the pack price up from £164 to £184.

[Ceptic]

Where did these particular coaches run?

 

 

As ye kiltedsignaller recommends, for a full history & whereabouts, you can do no better than invest in a copy of Antony M. Ford's book 'Pullman Profile No.1, The 12 Wheeled Cars'.

If you look on page 171, you can see that they got around a bit, from the LNER Pullman trains in the '20s, to gradually migrating, mostly to join their sisters in the South. in the '30s/'40s.

I've got my own compiled list of some of the Bournemouth Belle formations, which I can post here if anyone wishes. (it was previously posted on the equivalent thread on the old RMweb).

 

P.S.

My apologies kiltedsignaller, for not including your quote regarding your observations/comments on the 2010 Hornby catalogue. I haven't quite mastered this multiquote thingy yet .

I seem to remember some one also picking up on it earlier this year, on the Hornby forum.

 

Regards.

[kiltedsignaller]

 

P.S.

My apologies kiltedsignaller, for not including your quote regarding your observations/comments on the 2010 Hornby catalogue. I haven't quite mastered this multiquote thingy yet .

I seem to remember some one also picking up on it earlier this year, on the Hornby forum.

 

Regards.

 

 

Nae worries, ye auld Ceptic

 

Regards (too!)

[7013]

I have got the original Bournemouth Belle and coach pack that comes with New Zealand line, will perhaps add a twelve wheeler, but it has never been out of the box so I am not sure what tweleve wheeler to add/substitute

[RFS]

Hattons have now put the pack price up from £164 to £184.

Rails of Sheffield have the set priced at £154.50.

[Garry D100]

Rails of Sheffield have the set priced at £154.50.

And slightly cheaper still elsewhere

[kiltedsignaller]

I have got the original Bournemouth Belle and coach pack that comes with New Zealand line, will perhaps add a twelve wheeler, but it has never been out of the box so I am not sure what tweleve wheeler to add/substitute

 

 

That's great that you have those. It will mean that you can add to it with the 12 wheelers: all of that which is available is correct. You can have a FULL LENGTH Bournemouth Belle!

[Forester]

That's great that you have those. It will mean that you can add to it with the 12 wheelers: all of that which is available is correct. You can have a FULL LENGTH Bournemouth Belle!

 

Ummm. Nothing's ever simple in Pullman World.

 

The New Zealand Line Bournemouth Belle train pack represented the 1960 8-wheel set (Rosemary etc) which replaced the 1948 12-wheeler set (Sunbeam etc) represented by the Alfred the Great pack.

[kiltedsignaller]

Ummm. Nothing's ever simple in Pullman World.

 

The New Zealand Line Bournemouth Belle train pack represented the 1960 8-wheel set (Rosemary etc) which replaced the 1948 12-wheeler set (Sunbeam etc) represented by the Alfred the Great pack.

 

 

Oh I know, Forester. But just a big supposing . . . on the day of the changeover . . . everything in use . . .

[kiltedsignaller]

I have to say I am VERY impressed with these new Pullman cars. I think Hornby has captured the essence of the heavy wooden 12-wheelers remarkably well. Following on from the 8-wheelers, points have clearly been tweaked and improved and these are just stunning.

 

The bogies are very fine and the wheels run beautifully freely; the underframe trussing is very delicate, following on from No. 14's success.

 

Interiors are excellent, though I would query the number of seats in No.96 - it is Third Class, after all (at least it'll be right for Sunbeam). Correct seats in both Malaga and No. 94, however. I love the sink, draining board and oven in Malaga's kitchen; equally the sink in the pantry.

 

Congratulations to Hornby on these.

[Ceptic]

I have got the original Bournemouth Belle and coach pack that comes with New Zealand line, will perhaps add a twelve wheeler, but it has never been out of the box so I am not sure what tweleve wheeler to add/substitute

As a generalisation, the Bournemouth Belle formation pre-war,1936-39 and early post-war 1946+ would be made up of 8 wheeled cars, topped & tailed with 12 wheeled Brakes, usually Nos.40/41 or 94/95 (modelled by Hornby). In late 1947 more 12 wheelers appeared, ROSALIND, HIBERNIA, SUNBEAM, 3rd.Cl. cars 96,97,98,47 & 17, sometimes running with one or two 8 wheeled PHILOMEL, IBIS, LYDIA & ROSEMARY. From then, and until 1961, the majority would have been 12 wheelers with, again, a couple of 8 wheeled cars, at the most. ROSEMARY,SAPPHO,TOPAZ and URSULA (1928 all steel car) + Car No.303 also spring to mind.

It was during the very early 60s that the 12 wheelers became life-expired and were gradually replaced by newer models, some of which were from Pullman stock allocated to other regions. Ex NE region cars can be picked out in photographs by the position of their roof board mountings, just above the gutters in this case.

The NE.Reg cars included both the 8 wheeled K Class cars (Hornby super-detailed) and the 1928 built all-steel cars (Hornby Railroad). Later on, several more cars from the M.Reg & W.Reg were added to the S.Reg list.

So, as Forester says, and as you can see, nuthin's ever simple in Pullman World.

Just one train, made up of at least, one of them, has it's own, often complicated, history.

 

Regards.

[kiltedsignaller]

As a generalisation, the Bournemouth Belle formation pre-war,1936-39 and early post-war 1946+ would be made up of 8 wheeled cars, topped & tailed with 12 wheeled Brakes, usually Nos.40/41 or 94/95 (modelled by Hornby). In late 1947 more 12 wheelers appeared, ROSALIND, HIBERNIA, SUNBEAM, 3rd.Cl. cars 96,97,98,47 & 17, sometimes running with one or two 8 wheeled PHILOMEL, IBIS, LYDIA & ROSEMARY. From then, and until 1961, the majority would have been 12 wheelers with, again, a couple of 8 wheeled cars, at the most. ROSEMARY,SAPPHO,TOPAZ and URSULA (1928 all steel car) + Car No.303 also spring to mind.

It was during the very early 60s that the 12 wheelers became life-expired and were gradually replaced by newer models, some of which were from Pullman stock allocated to other regions. Ex NE region cars can be picked out in photographs by the position of their roof board mountings, just above the gutters in this case.

The NE.Reg cars included both the 8 wheeled K Class cars (Hornby super-detailed) and the 1928 built all-steel cars (Hornby Railroad). Later on, several more cars from the M.Reg & W.Reg were added to the S.Reg list.

So, as Forester says, and as you can see, nuthin's ever simple in Pullman World.

Just one train, made up of at least, one of them, has it's own, often complicated, history.

 

Regards.

 

 

 

One would almost think Hornby was trying to open a can of worms here. I don't think so; through discussion and research, it is awakening in our select group the knowledge of a wonderfully colourful part of the history of the railway. I have to say I myself have learned a lot this last few weeks.

[Ceptic]

I have got the original Bournemouth Belle and coach pack that comes with New Zealand line, will perhaps add a twelve wheeler, but it has never been out of the box so I am not sure what tweleve wheeler to add/substitute

 

 

Although it was advertised in the 2009 catalogue, It doesn't appear to have been released yet, R 4385 3rd. Cl. Parlour car No. 98 could be an option. This car was a 'Belle' vehicle and was withdrawn in May '61.

The 12 wheelers released separately, to date, are not those which would, normally, be included in the 'Belle'.

For a bit of variety, loco wise, you could also haul the 50's train using, apart from the Brit', MN, WC/BoB locos, a King Arthur 'N15' Cl., re-named/numbered 30780 'SIR PERSANT', or one of Bachmann's E.Region 'V2' 2-6-2s re-numbered 60893/6 or 60928. Or, if you've got the time and/or cash, a kit/rtr 10201/2 or 10000/1 diesel-electric.

If you want to model the train during it's 1967 demise, you could always re-number a grotty green 'Duff' Cl.47 into D1924.

 

Regards.

[brushman47544]

If you want to model the train during it's 1967 demise, you could always re-number a grotty green 'Duff' Cl.47 into D1924.

 

Regards.

You'd then need a Chocolate & Cream (WR) liveried BG as well, since towards the end they had replaced the life-expired Pullman Brakes. Bachmann 39-179B is shown as due June/July.