Medals for drone pilots

[Torper]

Until now, medals in the UK have been awarded on the basis of rigour and risk, and being physically exposed to danger.  However, Michael Fallon, UK defence secretary, now wishes to give medals to the "pilots" of drones fighting ISIS as he feels that as the nature of warfare is changing medals should now go not only for acts of conspicuous bravery, but also to those who "make a vital contribution from outside the battlespace".

 

To me, this seems yet another example of "dumbing down" that will merely serve to devalue the whole idea of medals awarded to military personnel. I do think that there still ought to be some element of personal risk and bravery involved before a medal is awarded.  Or am I just lagging behind the times as usual?

 

DT

[Oldddudders]

Until now, medals in the UK have been awarded on the basis of rigour and risk, and being physically exposed to danger.  However, Michael Fallon, UK defence secretary, now wishes to give medals to the "pilots" of drones fighting ISIS as he feels that as the nature of warfare is changing medals should now go not only for acts of conspicuous bravery, but also to those who "make a vital contribution from outside the battlespace".

 

To me, this seems yet another example of "dumbing down" that will merely serve to devalue the whole idea of medals awarded to military personnel. I do think that there still ought to be some element of personal risk and bravery involved before a medal is awarded.  Or am I just lagging behind the times as usual?

 

DT

 

Do generals get medals, despite not usually being involved in the physicality of the combat? I think so. They get them for having overseen a successful campaign, and making a difference. Drone pilots may be comfy and safe, but their expertise in doing whatever the drone is required to do may shorten a war, may save lives. It certainly merits consideration. 

[The Blue Streak]

There are (and has been for some time) already different types of Medals available. There are the GSM (General Service Medals) type that are awarded to those who may have service usually in an overseas area where some sort of Hostilities are or might be in effect. GSM are awarded to all those who have served in a specified area (whether they be combat related and in the thick of the action on a daily basis or those who may be some distance from front line duties in supporting roles).

 

If the drone pilots are "in country" then they are entitled to the same GSM as everybody. If they are operating from outside the area of threat they may also have a fair claim in certain circumstances.

 

During WW2 for instance the 1939 - 45 Medal was available to anyone who served in any capacity home or abroad. Also The Defence Medal was available to not only those who may have served O/s but also to those who may have only served in the UK but been subjected to air or other attack. (There were also medals that were awarded to those who served in various theaters ie Pacific star or Africa Star.)

 

Although these medals may have been awarded to those who may have never even seen combat, they certainly don't detract or diminish the type of medals that are awarded to those who have recieved them through acts of gallantry.

Different Medals for different things - eg.-  LSGC for long and efficient service and VC for outstanding acts of gallantry.

 

The drone pilots are under a completely different kind of pressure and stress and just because they are some distance away and unlikely to be killed or injured in the line of duty, I bet the emotions after "a kill" or possible PTSD problems later on are just as real. Just reason for some sort of recognition I think.

Edited September 20, 2017 by The Blue Streak

[Happy Hippo]

There are medals, and then there are medals!

 

The award of a medal is governed by many factors, not necessarily just being exceptionally brave in combat.

 

For instance. a pilot who repeatedly risks his life during combat missions could be awarded a Distinquished Flying Cross.

 

The same pilot who loses the engine of his Hawk trainer on a training mission and glides it 40 miles to a safe landing could be awarded an Air Force Cross.

 

However, you could not reverse the awards, as although excellent flying skills were shown in the second instance, it would not qualify for a DFC.

 

In the case of the drone pilots, I expect that they will be picking awards such as a military division MBE (in the same way as some SOE operatives did in WWII).

 

Many years ago, a friend of mine was awarded a BEM, gazetted for his 'charity' work in Belize.

 

In truth the 'charity' was supporting UK and US Special Forces over a prolonged time.

 

Returning to the drone pilots, as Ian has stated, they may be sitting in a chair a huge distance from the action, but it is a well known fact that they get so immersed in their work that they   do suffer from mental fatigue and can even develop combat stress over a period of time.

 

So although they might not qualify for a gallantry award, some, but not all, should be selected (on merit), for an official award. 

[grandadbob]

They are certainly more worthy of an award than certain grossly overpaid so called sportsmen chasing a ball around.

[Torper]

I think if we're talking of two diffent categories of medals as Richard suggests above, clearly distinguishable from each other, then I suppose there's an arguable case for it.  On the other hand, it does smack of getting a reward for just doing your job, and there are thousands of people in the UK who work under considerable stress every day and achieve good results.  If that is the argument, then why should the medals be limited to military personnel?  The emergency services spring to mind, so do medical staff, teachers in difficult schools, the police, loads of others who come under stress frequently in their work and cope without the necessity or even thought of getting a medal.

 

As for generals, they get medals just for being generals.  Sometimes they will have got their medals for conspicuous gallantry previously.  If its just for being a general, then they shouldn't get a medal of a type normally awarded for gallantry.

 

DT

[The Blue Streak]

Police and other Emergency services have their own Medals available to them for not only long service but also for acts of gallantry. (and well deserved they are too).

 

Also I wouldn't worry too much about generals getting gallantry Medals just for being a General. Gallantry Medals are pretty strictly Vetted and there are many procedures in place to ensure they don't get dished out willy nilly. If a General is sporting an MM for instance, you can bet your backside that they actually earned it as a junior officer at some time in the past.

 

As for the drone pilots, with the high definition cameras that are on these drones, they get a pretty good view of the targets both prior to and after a strike therefore getting a pretty good detailed look at the results of their "handywork". Probably far more graphic than what many service personnel "in country" would get to see unless they were operating at close quarters. (It's not just destroyed buildings or vehicles in those images)

 

I think the type of stress that one gets from being continually subjected to images of that nature, that they have effectively contributed to, is somewhat above and beyond what most people could even imagine. I'm not saying that being a teacher isn't stressful and there would be some who in extreme cases may suffer long term effects, but I think it's apples and oranges. However I also think that our Nurses and doctors, especially those in Emergency wards are under awarded or not applauded enough.

 

But I'll give you an example of how high the numbers are of PTSD affected military personnel are ( these are numbers from Oz but the US has identical figures, so likely the UK does too) for every 10 Service persons Killed in service since 1999, roughly 50 currently serving or discharged members have committed suicide with PTSD / depression etc. and many of them aren't what the general public would call front line personnel. I'd hate to think what the numbers were in the days before help was available and figures were recorded.

 

I think they deserve all the recognition they can get. (Although being ex Army, I might be a bit biased )

Edited September 20, 2017 by The Blue Streak

[The Stationmaster]

I think if we're talking of two diffent categories of medals as Richard suggests above, clearly distinguishable from each other, then I suppose there's an arguable case for it.  On the other hand, it does smack of getting a reward for just doing your job, and there are thousands of people in the UK who work under considerable stress every day and achieve good results.  If that is the argument, then why should the medals be limited to military personnel?  The emergency services spring to mind, so do medical staff, teachers in difficult schools, the police, loads of others who come under stress frequently in their work and cope without the necessity or even thought of getting a medal.

 

As for generals, they get medals just for being generals.  Sometimes they will have got their medals for conspicuous gallantry previously.  If its just for being a general, then they shouldn't get a medal of a type normally awarded for gallantry.

 

DT

 

What a load of tosh.  Lots of people get medals for 'doing their job' in times of war.  My mother and father both received the Defence Medal - for doing their jobs in the AFS and if you happen to think that fire fighting (in the case of my father) in blitzes in places such as Coventry, Southampton and Portsmouth isn't 'doing your job' then you're living in a very strange world.  My mother got it for hours of sitting at night time on a rooftop firewatching - again 'just doing her job' so she received the Defence Medal, as did countless thousands of other people who were 'just doing their job', the critical thing being it was an important job in war time

 

When we do a  job, any job , we make a choice and some might have a cushy life while others don't and in some jobs medals area awarded - my father was a Retained Fireman for many years after WWII and he got two more medals, simply for doing his (part time) job because that is what happens in some jobs (e,.g. the Fire Service and the Police) which can be dangerous and which serve the community.  And why on earth should anyone get a medal for stress in their workplace?

 

So do a bit of research before blabbing out nonsense please and don't forget that just because you do a particular job, however hard and dirty it might be in peacetime doesn't mean you are going to get any greater reward than some job satisfaction and a pay packet.

 

And of course Generals don't get medals just for being Generals - although they do get campaign medals and they can get awards for meritorious service, i.e. doing something beyond the normal call of just holding the rank

[runs as required]

I heard on BBC R4 Today this morning two 'top brass' servicemen agreeing with one another that all ranks, including Generals, will salute a VC holder (awarded for Gallantry).

dh

[Ozexpatriate]

There's drones and drones too.

 

An argument can be made that a weaponized drone operator will experience the same emotional reactions to being ordered to kill as a sniper in a well protected hide at a distance from the sniper's target. One could also make an argument about the similarities between this and a bomber pilot operating in an environment of total air supremacy, absent an immediate threat of being shot down.

 

Even in non-weaponized situations, the combat stresses of operating a purely observational drone that witnesses people (hostile, friendly and civilian) coming under fire.

 

It should not be forgotten that there are a wide variety of drones that are operated in theatre - where the launch and recovery is done in sight of (though well out of small arms range) of hostile positions. (This is very common in Afghanistan.)

[Torper]

Just for Stationmaster's benefit I should maybe point out that Michael Fallon was talking about a rethink on military medals of the type normally awarded for courage, not long service or campaign medals.  What he said was that there needed to be a shake-up in how servicemen and women are recognised for their contributions to UK operations.  A little bit of research on Stationmaster's part really should have made that clear and would have avoided the tosh that he posted.

 

One point I do agree with Stationmaster, however, is his question as to "Why on earth should anyone get a medal for stress in their workplace", which would be better put to Michael Fallon who took the view that the medal would be seen as a recognition of the psychological toll drone operation can take.  I personally find that very unconvincing, although I'm not sure that I'd go quite as far as one commentator who asked "You mean you can get a medal for being hundreds of miles away from the battle zone, in a safe bunker, with absolutely no risk of injury and playing video games?!".  In fact, if you take that a little bit further, presumably medals will also awarded to cyberhackers who endeavour to disable the other side's cyber machines, and so on.

 

I have no objection to those who make an outstanding (not merely routine) contribution towards a conflict being awarded with some sort of honour.  I do however believe that "medals" of that nature should be differentiated from the more traditional medals awarded for courage and gallantry.  The USA, of course, came up with a similar idea a few years ago when a military medal (the DWM) was proposed for "extraordinary achievement" that did not involve valour.  US veterans objected, stating that "Medals that can only be earned in direct combat must mean more than medals awarded in the rear".  Eventually the medal was cancelled, being replaced by a new "disinguishing device" that could be attached to an existing medal or dervice ribbon.  That seems a pretty good compromise to me.

 

Ozexpatriate, I note the arguments you suggest, though it seems to me that you do so without much conviction.  They seem very unconvincing to me, as i'm sure they will to The Stationmaster, relying as they do on medals being awarded for stress while doing one's job in a safe environment.

 

DT

Edited September 20, 2017 by Torper

[PhilH]

Decisions made by and actions taken by these people and those perhaps those above them who make other decisions can often prevent the need for people to have to carry out 'actions of valour' as you describe, ie sometimes stopping actions before they happen which could stop others being harmed.

If that's the case, which after conversations with involved family members it clearly is, then they can have any medal they like for me.

Edited September 20, 2017 by PhilH

[Andy Y]

Just for Stationmaster's benefit

 

An unfortunate tone to take when you have started a topic soliciting opinion.

 

Would you have the skills and the courage to make a call on whether what you see from thousands of miles away is a terrorist cell meeting with intel of a likely attack or an innocent meeting of an extended family? And sit there and witness the aftermath. It's not Call of Duty.