Would a short parcels train need a guards van

[pctrainman]

Hi , can you somebody tell me if a train consisting of an Ivatt 2MT plus 2 parcels vans and a GUV require a guards van ? when out on the mainline ?.

[Dunsignalling]

Hi , can you somebody tell me if a train consisting of an Ivatt 2MT plus 2 parcels vans and a GUV require a guards van ? when out on the mainline ?.

Not a guards van in the sense of a goods brake van (though that did occasionally happen on short trip workings or in winter when the guard required a stove for heat).

 

But, yes. one vehicle must have a guard's compartment. GUV's don't and you don't specify what your two parcels vans are, but you will need something like a BG (Brake, gangwayed) several types have been available, LMS Stanier, BR Mk1, LNER Gresley and Thompson plus GWR Hawksworth. Also suitable would be a Hornby Van B or BY.

 

Not all those mentioned are currently available new, but most aren't too difficult to find second hand.

 

John

Edited November 5, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[APOLLO]

Am I correct in saying that most / all parcels trains were fully braked so the guard need not be in the rearmost vehicle, just in one anywhere in the formation that had guard accommodation ?.

 

Don't forget the red tail lamp !!

 

Brit15

[Dunsignalling]

Am I correct in saying that most / all parcels trains were fully braked so the guard need not be in the rearmost vehicle, just in one anywhere in the formation that had guard accommodation ?.

 

Don't forget the red tail lamp !!

 

Brit15

Parcels trains were indeed fully fitted but I believe that there was a regulation (before my time) that the van with the guard in it had to be one of the three rearmost vehicles in the formation.

 

I think this requirement was done away with c1962, after which the situation was as you describe.

 

Also, of course, parcels trains often included several vehicles with guards' compartments with only one of them being occupied.

 

John

Edited November 4, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[TheSignalEngineer]

Am I correct in saying that most / all parcels trains were fully braked so the guard need not be in the rearmost vehicle, just in one anywhere in the formation that had guard accommodation ?.

 

Don't forget the red tail lamp !!

 

Brit15

Parcels trains were fully braked. As long as the automatic brake was working on a certain number of vehicles counting from the back of the train the van could be anywhere.  Piped only vehicles could not be used at the back end.

Edited November 4, 2017 by TheSignalEngineer

[Fat Controller]

There's a lovely shot, in 'Heyday of the Hydraulics' IIRC, of a Hymec with a very short Weymouth- Bristol parcels. The train consisted of a single BR GUV and a BR Standard BG. Had there been but one vehicle, it would have to have been the BG.

[pctrainman]

Thank you all , I want this lineup to be no more than the Loco and 3 pieces of rolling stock and to incorpoate the GUV as a certainty , I also want it to be as short as possible so i'd rather not go the route of using a BG because of it's length , what options does that leave me with ? the layout is set in 1964 and is N gauge.

[Michael Edge]

You could have a BY or BZ (4 wheel or 6 wheel) brake van but the BG is the most likely vehicle to find in this train.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Not sure if this one was used in the thread on modelling a traditional parcels train, but it's around your period, Ivatt Class 2, GUV, Mk1 BG and LMS BG

[46490 at Dudley (pjs 360) by geoff7918, on Flickr

Edited November 4, 2017 by TheSignalEngineer

[Dunsignalling]

Thank you all , I want this lineup to be no more than the Loco and 3 pieces of rolling stock and to incorpoate the GUV as a certainty , I also want it to be as short as possible so i'd rather not go the route of using a BG because of it's length , what options does that leave me with ? the layout is set in 1964 and is N gauge.

Sorry, all my recommendations were OO. I'm not familiar with what is/has been available for N.

 

John

[D9020 Nimbus]

Dapol do the Maunsell Van B.

 

The N Gauge Society have done the Stove R 6-wheel van which ought to be suitable as well.

[phil-b259]

Before the mid 1960s ALL trains, be they passenger, goods, empty coaching stock, parcels, etc HAD to have a guards van of some description within the train however Long or short it was.

 

The initial change was limited to diesel / electric hauled fully fitted freights and allowed the guard to travel in the rear facing cab of the loco - at no stage were guards permitted to share cabs with drivers which means all steam hauled fiitted freights still needed brake vans. Parcels and ECS trains would still be expected to contain guards accomadation rather than have the guard travel in the loco.

 

Over subsequent years further changes saw the need for a guard to be present on certain types of train was removed.

 

But to summersise, if you are model in a steam hauled parcels train it MUST contain guards accommodation.

Edited November 4, 2017 by phil-b259

[Steven B]

The Farish LMS BG at 50' is 7' (about 1/2 inch) shorter than the BR equivalent. Otherwise the NGS Stove R would fit the bill.

 

Steven B

Edited November 4, 2017 by Steven B

[Dunsignalling]

Just had a cruise round Hatton's website and spotted that Dapol do the Southern Van BY long wheelbase 4-wheel brake which should fit within your restricted length.

 

In earlier years, most of these were on regular diagrammed duties and didn't work off their home turf very much (unlike the basically similar PMVs and CCTs without guard's accommodation which could be seen on all regions) but by 1964, they were beginning to range more widely. 

 

John

Edited November 5, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Rugd1022]

Later than the OP's period I know, but worth a mention - when we worked the Padd-Aylesbury papers in the early '80s ocasionally it would be formed of a single CCT van, with the Guard asleep, sorry, cough... travelling in the rear cab of the loco.

[pctrainman]

The Farish LMS BG at 50' is 7' (about 1/2 inch) shorter than the BR equivalent. Otherwise the NGS Stove R would fit the bill.

 

Steven B

Would the LMS BG have still been in use in 64 Steven ? and in what colour scheme ? as the layout is set within the old LMS area the BG is a strong possiblity teamed with the GUV and a Southern BY as suggested by dunsignalling . I am not trying to achieve full prototypicality  but rather something that to the knowledgable looks about right .

[Fat Controller]

Would the LMS BG have still been in use in 64 Steven ? and in what colour scheme ? as the layout is set within the old LMS area the BG is a strong possiblity teamed with the GUV and a Southern BY as suggested by dunsignalling . I am not trying to achieve full prototypicality  but rather something that to the knowledgable looks about right .

They lasted until the end of BR's 'collect and deliver' parcels service at the beginning of the 1980s, as did the Southern vans.

[pctrainman]

They lasted until the end of BR's 'collect and deliver' parcels service at the beginning of the 1980s, as did the Southern vans.

Would any of them have survived in their LMS livery  FC ? or would BR have repainted them prior to 64 ? and if so in would they be Grey or Bauxite ?.

[Fat Controller]

Would any of them have survived in their LMS livery  FC ? or would BR have repainted them prior to 64 ? and if so in would they be Grey or Bauxite ?.

They would have been repainted by the early 1950s, firstly into either BR Crimson or 'blood and custard', then into Maroon, and finally into Blue or Blue and Grey. They were classed as 'Non-Passenger-Carrying Coaching Stock' and so would have normally have followed the painting regimes of their passenger-carrying brethren; after all, they might be on a lowly parcels one day, but on the Royal Scot the next.

[pctrainman]

They would have been repainted by the early 1950s, firstly into either BR Crimson or 'blood and custard', then into Maroon, and finally into Blue or Blue and Grey. They were classed as 'Non-Passenger-Carrying Coaching Stock' and so would have normally have followed the painting regimes of their passenger-carrying brethren; after all, they might be on a lowly parcels one day, but on the Royal Scot the next.

Maroon it shall be then FC  , this brings up a further question though in that with my layout 98% finished is there an easy way ie Rattle Can to change the paint scheme to Maroon or is an airbrush the only option ? I don't have an airbrush and would rather avoid the expense of purchasing one just to paint one or possibly 2 wagons .

[Metr0Land]

Of course you could always got for something like this!  Presumably a portion was picked up en route or a portion is to be dropped off?

 

E5010 at Denton by Peter, on Flickr

[pctrainman]

Hi ML , yes that is very much the look I am trying to achieve albeit with the 2MT and just 3 pieces of rolling stock .

[Fat Controller]

Maroon it shall be then FC  , this brings up a further question though in that with my layout 98% finished is there an easy way ie Rattle Can to change the paint scheme to Maroon or is an airbrush the only option ? I don't have an airbrush and would rather avoid the expense of purchasing one just to paint one or possibly 2 wagons .

I presume the vehicle's in LMS Maroon; if so, remove the LMS crest/ company name using surgical spirit or similar and a cotton wool bud. The colour of LMS and BR Maroon weren't that dissimilar You could 'weather' by brushing overall with 'track dirt' brown or similar, then remove from sides and roof with a bit of cloth; these vehicles stayed reasonably clean (i.e. you could tell what colour they were, unlike the ex-SR vans) into the 1970s. The ends and and underframe did collect grime, though.

[The Johnster]

If you are constrained for space and need 3 vehicles, I'd suggest something like the GUV, a BY 4-wheeled guard's van (Southern) or BZ 6 wheeled one (LMS or LNER), and a CCT, PMV, GW Fruit D, or even an XP rated vanfit as the other vehicle (you might even be able to squeeze 2 of these in).  If you are running in winter, when steam heating must be provided for the guard if there is no stove in his van, do not marshall the vanfit(s) between him and the loco.

 

The attraction of parcels trains, even short ones, to which I have myself fully succumbed, is the variety of stock used, even into the 1980s.  Back in the 60s all sorts of pre-nationalisation stuff could still turn up, and the livery was usually just plain filthy; these were hard worked vehicles on circuits that were never cleaned!

 

The single manning agreement that allowed guards to ride in the back cabs of locomotives was not implemented until after the end of steam.

Edited November 5, 2017 by The Johnster

[RfDforever]

To give an idea of the wanderlust of the ex S.R. BY; one (777) was the front vehicle in the Peterboro-Liverpool St (via Ipswich) mail train in March, 1950 which, after passing several adverse signals in fog, collided with a freight train at Witham Junction. In 1969, all surviving ex SR BYs had their lighting removed and were regarded officially as former brake vans. Sources SR Passenger Vans, Oakwood Press, and the accident report in Railways Archive.