GWR and SR Overlap Questions

[Zomboid]

Thread on Southern Railway in the 1950s and onwards...

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/110221-southern-railway-in-the-1950s-and-onwards/

 

Note who started it...

Edited November 17, 2017 by Zomboid

[eastglosmog]

To get a bit back on topic, it was not unusual for competing railways to have considerable intertwining, especially in mining and industrial areas (which Cornwall was, though in terminal decline by the late 19th Century).  Also, one railway having running powers over another railway was not at all unusual - the LNWR relied on them over the GWR to get to its lines in South Wales.

[rab]

The Bodmin and Wadebridge (bagged by the LSWR to the GWR's annoyance) relied on china clay traffic.  As far as I know, it was quite profitable, but was basically short haul to the coast (as was the GWR's equivalent down to Fowey) due to the arrangements to protect coastal shipping.  The LSWR also had the huge Delabole Slate quarry to generate traffic.  Trouble is, the slate trade declined drastically in the 20th century which dented the economics of the North Cornwall line a bit.

I may be wrong on this but I think one of the original reasons for the creation of the B&W was to carry sand

from the river at Wadebridge up the line to local farms.

I seem to remember that at one time trains would stop alongside the nearest convenient field to unload.

 

Apologies for drifting even further off topic.

[eastglosmog]

I believe you are right, in that sea sand was a back cargo, to balance the downwards mineral traffic.

[D854_Tiger]

The Midland and South Western Junction Railway was built to allow the Midland Railway's traffic to reach the ports of Southampton without having to rely upon the GWR as an intermediary a situation hardly helped, at the time, by the GWR being on the broad gauge.

 

Much to the annoyance of the GWR the MSWJR gained access to Cheltenham using one of the GWR's affiliate companies, the Banbury and Cheltenham Direct Railway, from Andoversford Junction.

 

However, the relationship could not have always been antagonistic because when the GWR eventually acquired the Banbury and Cheltenham they were then persuaded to double track the section from Andoversford to Cheltenham.

[KeithMacdonald]

Can anyone suggest additions to this list of candidates please?

I'm trying to choose a suitable location for modelling, where both GWR and SR overlapped on a regular basis.

 

Dorchester

Exeter St.Davids

Exmouth

Lydford Junction

Plymouth North Road

Plymouth St.Budeaux

Perhaps places on the West Somerset Railway?

 

Re Exeter St.Davids, perhaps that's too big?

[john new]

Kevin - I believe such amalgamations required the sanction of Parliament at that time.  Suspect this would not have been forthcoming in 1914, but if it had I wonder what they would have called the new company? Great South Western? Greater Western?  It would certainly have made a difference to the grouping!

I am sure I have read somewhere the Salisbury smash also halted some of the rivalry.

 

Regarding the post immediately above -

 

One of the rare GW/SW joint lines was the Portland Branch.

 

For a mainline option have a look at what is now just Upwey between Dorchester & Weymouth (Previously named as Upwey Junction later Upwey & Broadwey). Double track main line and the Abbotsbury Branch Junction and a nice set of level differences to challenge scenically and operationally. Also there are prototypical road over bridges and the Bincombe Bridge & Tunnel to give scenic breaks at all three places necessary.

 

For a branch the simplest prototypical option would be Abbotsbury Gates or Rodwell  and Easton makes a good layout (All on the Portland Branch). WMRA members did have models of both Rodwell & Easton  a few years ago. Rodwell got scrapped when the owner sadly died many years ago now and I think Easton got scrapped a few years back too as I've not seen it recently at any of their open days.

Edited September 11, 2018 by john new

[Quarryscapes]

Can anyone suggest additions to this list of candidates please?

I'm trying to choose a suitable location for modelling, where both GWR and SR overlapped on a regular basis.

 

Dorchester

Exeter St.Davids

Exmouth

Lydford Junction

Plymouth North Road

Plymouth St.Budeaux

Perhaps places on the West Somerset Railway?

 

Re Exeter St.Davids, perhaps that's too big?

 

Launceston

[phil-b259]

Can anyone suggest additions to this list of candidates please?

I'm trying to choose a suitable location for modelling, where both GWR and SR overlapped on a regular basis.

 

Dorchester

Exeter St.Davids

Exmouth

Lydford Junction

Plymouth North Road

Plymouth St.Budeaux

Perhaps places on the West Somerset Railway?

 

Re Exeter St.Davids, perhaps that's too big?

 

Exmouth was a 100% SR operation.

 

The Minhead branch (todays West Somerset Railway) was a long way from the nearest SR metals and was always a pure GWR operation.

 

The GWR had running powers between Barnstable and Ilfracombe so that line is one place the two companies stock could be seen

 

The town of Chard was the place where both the SR and GWR met - but no through running until British Railways days.

 

Yeovil Town was a SR terminus (a spur from Yeovil junction) terminated there as well as being a through station for the GWR

[Northroader]

Missing out the larger junctions such as Reading, Basingstoke and Salisbury, and the bits around West London, what about Yeovil, Chard, and Weymouth, but I’d say Exmouth is pretty well all SR. Then there’s Barnstaple and Bodmin.

[Nearholmer]

Basingstoke to Oxford.

[KeithMacdonald]

@Phil-b259

 

Thanks for mentioning Barnstable.

Would that be both Barnstable Town Station and Barnstable Junction?

 

Barnstable Town Station looks like a nice waterfront location, perhaps easier for a beginner?

Is that where the narrow gauge Lynton line met GWR & SR?

[Oldddudders]

Has anyone mentioned Wadebridge? GWR services from Bodmin Road and Bodmin General, LSWR/Southern services from Bodmin North and Waterloo!

[Nearholmer]

“The town of Chard was the place where both the SR and GWR met - but no through running until British Railways days.“

 

I’m pretty sure that the LSWR sand GWR agreed some sort of ‘Truce of Chard’, which involved the LSWR attains running through from the Junction to terminate at the GWR aeration rather than their own.

 

In BR days, the ex-GWR service ran to the junction, but I’m not sure which company operated the ex-LSWR bit, and to which of the stations in the town, during ‘grouping’. (Checked: the GWR took over operation through to the junction in 1917)

Edited September 11, 2018 by Nearholmer

[bike2steam]

Yeovil Town was a SR terminus (a spur from Yeovil junction) terminated there as well as being a through station for the GWR

 

There was also the loco shed at Yeovil Town that saw light engine movements to and from Junction station and yard.

Also the Plymouth to Yealmpton and Turnchapel branches (Plymstock).

Edited September 11, 2018 by bike2steam

[Nearholmer]

And, we haven't mentioned the southern end of the Didcot, Newbury and Southampton route, have we?

[Ozexpatriate]

Launceston

I thought the Launceston railway stations for each company were physically separate.

[Ozexpatriate]

Can anyone suggest additions to this list of candidates please?

I'm trying to choose a suitable location for modelling, where both GWR and SR overlapped on a regular basis.

This is something that has long interested me and there are a lot of really good suggestions in this thread.

 

The answer really depends on whether you want to see main line activity - which limits you to places like Exeter (St. Davids), Plymouth (North Road, Lipson Jct - Devonport Jct), Barnstable (Junction and Town) / Ilfracombe and Lydford (SR main line). I was under the impression that the St Budeaux stations (Ferry Road and Victoria Road) were separate, though proximate.

 

A couple of the branch line examples already suggested like Portland, Plymstock and Boscarne Jct / Wadebridge offer lots of potential for mixed running.

 

Mt Gould Jct to Friary Jct offers lots of scope for industrial traffic along with SR main line passenger working.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Ozexpatriate

[Zomboid]

Being no great fan of the GWR or LMS, I've been trying to come up with places that SR and LNER would have met. London being pretty much the only non-ficticious option...

 

Moderately on topic, the Southern route through Plymouth was totally separate from the GWR, and most of it can be traced on modern maps. That's always interested me.

 

There was never a connection between the LSW and DNS at Whitchurch, was there? Nor any connection at Tavistock? Both are places you could fictionalise a link, at least.

[Quarryscapes]

I thought the Launceston railway stations for each company were physically separate.

 

No idea as regards to buildings and infrastructure but I have photos of WR trains alongside SR ones at the platforms. There's a small one near the bottom of http://www.northcornwallrailway.co.uk/ace/

Edited September 11, 2018 by Quarryscapes

[phil-b259]

No idea as regards to buildings and infrastructure but I have photos of WR trains alongside SR ones at the platforms. There's a small one near the bottom of http://www.northcornwallrailway.co.uk/ace/

 

There was no physical connection at Launceston until WW2 at the earliest - and I have a feeling that it wasn't put in until BR days. Certainly concentrating all trains in the SR premiss was a BR decision

[phil-b259]

“The town of Chard was the place where both the SR and GWR met - but no through running until British Railways days.“

 

I’m pretty sure that the LSWR sand GWR agreed some sort of ‘Truce of Chard’, which involved the LSWR attains running through from the Junction to terminate at the GWR aeration rather than their own.

 

In BR days, the ex-GWR service ran to the junction, but I’m not sure which company operated the ex-LSWR bit, and to which of the stations in the town, during ‘grouping’. (Checked: the GWR took over operation through to the junction in 1917)

 

When originally constructed the LSWR had their own separate station at Chard and the line linking the two stations was for goods only. As you say common sense did prevail after a while and the GWR site was rebuilt as a joint passenger station before the SR came into being.

 

Incidentally I believe that one of the reasons the chard branch could not be accessed from the LSWR mainline without a double shunt manoeuvrer was in part due to a fear by the LSWR that the GWR might seek running powers on the mainline.

 

I also understand that while BR did make it a through Chard Junction - Taunton service this was merely to save on resources and the timetable was pretty much the  same as when it had been worked as two separate branches.

[phil-b259]

Being no great fan of the GWR or LMS, I've been trying to come up with places that SR and LNER would have met. London being pretty much the only non-ficticious option...

 

 

Indeed.

 

If you examine the number of tie ups between the big 4, what you see is that the constituents of the SR & LMS both looked to muscle in on GWR territory (e.g. LMS presence in Bath and Bristol while the SR competed in Exeter and Plymouth) and thus became natural partners. Of course this is the same reasoning which led the Midland Rly and the LSWR to take oer the SDJR rather than let it fall into GWR hands (as the MSWJR did in 1923 when the 'men from the ministry' decided it should be absorbed by the GWR)

 

The SR had no 'competing' lines with the LMS and thus there was no need to do tie ups with the LNER, although the little matter of the Thames Estuary getting in the way kind of prevented them doing so anyway. Had the UKs capital city ended up inland like Paris where lines could freely radiate in all directions then its quite likely that some SE / NE linking lines or competition would have occurred.

 

However both the LNER and the GWR had very good reasons to gang up together on the LMS! - The GWR was in competition with the LMS for traffic to Birmingham and Liverpool (via Birkenhead) while the LNER competed with the LMS for traffic from Rugby (and other places served by the GC), Manchester, Leeds and Scotland.

 

Now naturally none ofthe above means that the SR and the GWR didn't form working arrangements where it suited them - just as the LMS did deals with the LNER and GWR on occasion and certainly as time went on the attitudes inherited from pre-grouping enemies did soften. However it doesn't change the overal picture where the SR / LMS found a common enemy in the GWR and the LNER / GWR had a common enemy in the shape of the LMS.

[bike2steam]

Moderately on topic, the Southern route through Plymouth was totally separate from the GWR, 

 

Not quite, North Road was a joint station, through to the west side of Laira Junction, and the branch junction at Plymstock on the Yealmpton and Turncahapel branches - as mentioned in post#40. 

[Wickham Green]

 

 

Now naturally none of the above means that the SR and the GWR didn't form working arrangements where it suited them - ............

The two railways certainly DID cooperate on some matters : Railway Air Services was set up jointly, if I remember rightly.