GWR and SR Overlap Questions

['CHARD]

 

The town of Chard was the place where both the SR and GWR met - but no through running until British Railways days.

 

 

I don't think either reached as far as Sutton Coldfield.

[The Stationmaster]

@Phil-b259

 

Thanks for mentioning Barnstable.

Would that be both Barnstable Town Station and Barnstable Junction?

 

Barnstable Town Station looks like a nice waterfront location, perhaps easier for a beginner?

Is that where the narrow gauge Lynton line met GWR & SR?

 

Barnstaple had three stations - Victoria was the GWR station, terminus of the line from Taunton.  It was linked, across the river, to Barnstaple Junction (the LSWR/SR station) and Barnstaple Jcn was linked by a further river crossing to Barnstaple Town on the Ifracombe branch.  GWR trains ran via the Junction and Town stations to get to Ilfracombe.  Barnstaple Town had a single platform with the Ilfracombe branch at one platform face and the Lynton & Barnstaple narrow gauge at the opposite platform face so it was at one time served by the trains of three different companies. 

 

Similarly GWR trains from Bodmin Road ran via from Bodmin GWR station to Boscarne Jcn to join the LSWR/SR to Wadebridge and then on to Padstow.

 

Lydford was interesting as it was effectively a station with four platform faces - two each for the GWR and LSWR/SR but on separate routes for the two companies and basically two separate stations until BR times although there was shared signalbox which controlled both sides and was situated on the island platform between the two companies.

[Edwardian]

Pre-Grouping, Barnstaple Town (the site of the station on that section moved in 1898 so that it could lie alongside the new L&B) saw GW through coaches, but attached to LSW services. The first example of a GW loco I know of was a 4-4-0 reported during the Great War running to Ilfracombe.

 

After Grouping, I think it was relatively common to see whole GW trains working through Barnstaple Town to Ilfracombe.  One of the factors facilitating this would be the much larger turntable at Ilfracombe installed, IIRC, sometime in the '20s.  Prior to this, only 6-wheeled LSW tender types could run on the branch, together with the only the smallest 4-4-0s.

[bike2steam]

Yes, it was a requirement that certain Exmouth Junction crews kept up a working knowledge of the South Devon line to Plymouth, with occasional working of Southern locos on that line, a similar requirement was maintained at Weymouth, and (less so) Reading over the respective lines to Bournemouth, before the transfer of Weymouth shed from WR to SR.

[Wickham Green]

One aspect of 'joint' SR/GWR working in the West Country that hasn't yet surfaced in this thread is the regular operation of SR trains between Exeter and Plymouth via the GWR route, and vice-versa, to give the crews the necessary route knowledge in case of a blockage on one route or t'other.

[Nearholmer]

Phil

 

I know I’m getting Chard-obsessive, but the LSWR branch pre-dated the GWR, and began as a locally owned independent concern. It is that, not GWR grumpiness that explains the lack of through connection, and, as noted earlier, the combined service operated by the GWR started in 1917, not under BR.

 

Wouldn’t a model of the branch in the 1850s, when the GWR was still broad, then dual, gauge be interesting? Wacky track layouts, two gauges, bizarre-looking trains, crazy service pattern ....... someone must want to build it!

 

Kevin

['CHARD]

 

I’m getting Chard-obsessive

 

That's what the ladies say....  

[Nearholmer]

Indeed, and here they are, collectively obsessing.

[dibber25]

@Phil-b259

 

Thanks for mentioning Barnstable.

Would that be both Barnstable Town Station and Barnstable Junction?

 

Barnstable Town Station looks like a nice waterfront location, perhaps easier for a beginner?

Is that where the narrow gauge Lynton line met GWR & SR?

 

It's Barnstaple with a 'p'. GWR trains worked through from the Taunton-Dulverton line into Barnstaple Junction station and then over the bridge and through Town station to Ilfracombe. Town station was the junction for the Lynton & Barnstaple narrow gauge line. Barnstaple town station building and signal box still exist though very much built-around with new property. (CJL)

[KeithMacdonald]

Thanks for all the suggestions, the list is getting longer.

Is Marlborough a valid addition?

 

Abbotsbury Branch Junction
Abbotsbury Gates
Barnstaple Junction
Barnstaple Town
Bincombe Bridge & Tunnel
Bodmin?
Boscarne Junction
Chard
Dorchester
Exeter Central
Exeter St.Davids
Ilfracombe
Launceston
Lydford Junction
Marlborough
Portland Branch
Plymouth North Road
Plymouth St.Budeaux
Plymstock
Rodwell and Easton
Upwey Junction
Wadebridge
Weymouth
Yeovil
 

[Nearholmer]

Have we covered the MSWJ?

 

That went all the way to Cheltenham with SR locos didn't it? Certainly in BR days BR(S) locos worked to cheltenham, sneaking unnoticed through Swindon (!!!) on the way.

 

And, you've missed off my other suggestions:

 

- Shawford Junction to Southampton (GWR DN&S service)

 

- Basingstoke to Oxford (SR locos worked cross-country trains, some composed of LNER stock, all the way to Oxford over the GWR)

 

And, and, what GWR services ran to Exeter Central? I thought their engines were too feeble to get up the hill.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Nearholmer

[KeithMacdonald]

Hello Nearholmer

 

Re other suggestions:
- Shawford Junction to Southampton (GWR DN&S service)
- Basingstoke to Oxford (SR locos worked cross-country trains, some composed of LNER stock, all the way to Oxford over the GWR)

 

I saw that (thanks) but wasn't sure which specific locations would be best.

Any suggestions?

[KeithMacdonald]

Additions to the list?

MSWJ stations like Swindon Town

[Nearholmer]

You mean as potential stations to model?

 

I suppose the small GWR stations between Basingstoke and Reading are of a manageable size. Eastleigh might come out a bit big! I can never remember where Shawford station is in relation to the junction, but it is quite modest in size, although the SR trains through it weren't.

[john new]

You mean as potential stations to model?

 

I suppose the small GWR stations between Basingstoke and Reading are of a manageable size. Eastleigh might come out a bit big! I can never remember where Shawford station is in relation to the junction, but it is quite modest in size, although the SR trains through it weren't.

 

About half a mile (may be more) round the curve at the north end. Pretty much underneath where the M3 now crosses the line.

Edited September 13, 2018 by john new

[Zomboid]

The DNS viaduct just north of Shawford Jn is still standing alongside the M3. Shawford station is south of that, and would have seen DNS trains passing through along with all the SWML traffic.

[john new]

The DNS viaduct just north of Shawford Jn is still standing alongside the M3. Shawford station is south of that, and would have seen DNS trains passing through along with all the SWML traffic.

 

Not only off the DN&S. Regular ex-GWR locos passing through when I was a kid on inter-regionals. Up to and including Halls IIRC, as with this one I photographed back in the day. Sorry about the quality - Box Brownie - mid-60s. Date and loco number not recorded. Location south of Shawford near The Malms bridge/end of the Allbrook loop. Best ex-GWR cop back in the day - City of Truro.

 

 

(Facebook Album link was not working earlier, now reloaded on own website)

Edited September 13, 2018 by john new

[brianusa]

Brownie or not, a great picture.  Captures the moment perfectly and couldn't be improved; seen worse with the best equipment!

 

Brian.

[Nearholmer]

Excellent photo.

 

I think you can see troughing being laid for the electrification in the foreground., so probably 1966. I’ve got a lot of photos taken by a colleague when he was working on that electrification, many steam locos passing, but no GW ones.

 

From what I can work out, in GWR/SR times the GW locos didn’t work cross country trains south of Basingstoke, whereas there are photos of SR locos at Oxford, and headlamp codes in the SR general appendix for such workings.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Nearholmer

[bike2steam]

All WR steam operations ( well standard gauge, and not S&D) ended at the end of 1965, but throughout the summers of 1963/4 & 5, when ever I visited Basingstoke there was always either a Hall or Grange on shed in steam. 1966 saw inter-regional trains, that ended up on the Southern, mostly hauled by Banbury Black 5's until the end of the summer timetable in the September. Some Reading crews had to have knowledge of the road to Bournemouth as there wasn't always a Southern loco to take over at Basingstoke.

edit - The Shawford viaduct is a listed structure. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by bike2steam

[john new]

Excellent photo.

 

I think you can see troughing being laid for the electrification in the foreground., so probably 1966. I’ve got a lot of photos taken by a colleague when he was working on that electrification, many steam locos passing, but no GW ones.

 

From what I can work out, in GWR/SR times the GW locos didn’t work cross country trains south of Basingstoke, whereas there are photos of SR locos at Oxford, and headlamp codes in the SR general appendix for such workings.

 

Agreed re the troughing in the foreground. Summer '66 would have made sense, I got the camera given to me in '62 (2nd hand from my grandfather), by '66 I was 14 so probably being allowed out to train spot by myself. However, given bike2steam's post above, late summer 65 perhaps? Leaves on the trees and the foreground grass gone over to pale stalks appear to rule out the 64/5 winter & spring. There was a regular Saturday morning down Hall turn through Shawford with a syphon on the back. When the trains went over to the Swindon cross-country DMUs the tail load was retained initially. The only regular DMU turn I can recall seeing anywhere with a tail load/swinger. I have no idea what the return balancing turn was, however, as we didn't go down regularly to see it as we did with the morning one.

Edited September 13, 2018 by john new

[Nearholmer]

Electrification works on a scheme that size typically spread over a couple of years, so 1965 is feasible.

 

OT, but tail load on DMUs was normal on the Cambrian until at least c1980. From about 1976 to 1980 I used to regularly travel from London to Porthmadog overnight on a Friday, and the early morning service (c0400?) from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth was a 3 car Met Cam with a utility van on the back for the mail bags. Postmen with their little red vans (and cats for all I know) would be waiting on the platform at each stop for the bags.

[Zomboid]

I need to join in with the love-in for the photo. Captures an atmosphere very well, though being born in the 1980s I've no idea if it's the atmosphere of the time! (The "flaws" actually enhance it, IMO, it would be less effective if it were pin sharp in a million colours).

 

Shame the subject isn't a proper engine from the drawing office of Mr Maunsell or Mr Bulleid, but you can't have everything...

[bike2steam]

I can understand your feeling, but by that time there was very little of Maunsell's ( a couple of moguls) left.

[The Stationmaster]

All WR steam operations ( well standard gauge, and not S&D) ended at the end of 1965, but throughout the summers of 1963/4 & 5, when ever I visited Basingstoke there was always either a Hall or Grange on shed in steam. 1966 saw inter-regional trains, that ended up on the Southern, mostly hauled by Banbury Black 5's until the end of the summer timetable in the September. Some Reading crews had to have knowledge of the road to Bournemouth as there wasn't always a Southern loco to take over at Basingstoke.

edit - The Shawford viaduct is a listed structure. 

 

The following WR classes were permitted to work throughout between Basingstoke and Bournemouth West - 49XX, 68XX, 78XX, and 43XX, in addition 28XX were permitted between Basingstoke and Eastleigh.  All of these plus 2251 were permitted between Eastleigh and Portsmouth Harbour.