What colour was the silver jubilee really?

[richard i]

So what was the real colour of the train?

I have picked up a rake which is definitely silver.

But colour film on you tube shows it as almost white.

Was it the same colour as the locos?

I know colour film changes shade over time.

Does anyone remember seeing it?

Has anyone got the paint spec?

Any advice gratefully received.

Richard

[Metr0Land]

Can't help directly but in the 1990's 60019 was repainted as Silver Link.  Presumably the NRM went to lengths to get the colour correct though a daylight shot would be better.  It was my understaning the original loco colour closely matched the carriages.

A4 "SILVER LINK" by BRIAN PLAYFAIR, on Flickr

[richard i]

More grist to the mill

Loveless definite silver to it.

Colour footage from time almost identical to train engine, and much more white/ cream

A illustration from the time? Engine darker than coaches which are bright white

Black and white photos but coaches look different from engine colour

First more of a silver tone

Here more white

Ideas?

Edited November 17, 2017 by richard i

[Nearholmer]

If you look at b&w photos, in several of them the loco looks very slightly darker than the coaches under the same light.

 

I know that Ace Trains of London had their coarse-scale 0 models finished that way, loco very pale grey, coaches an aluminium colour, and Allen Levy, the leader of Ace Trains, I know used to watch trains at Kings Cross long enough ago that he might be one of the few people around who has first-hand knowledge of what it looked like.

 

Kevin

[JeremyC]

I have no knowledge of the actual colours used, but according to Michael Harris's book 'Gresley's Coaches' when built the body panels were covered in silver grey Rexine, but despite careful cleaning this became stained within six months and Doncaster then sprayed the set silver, which was repeated at regular intervals. To me this suggests the possibility that painting  may have changed the colour of the set.

Other livery details given in the book are; roofs were spray painted aluminium over white lead base, fairings and bogie frames lead grey, wheels and axle boxes black.

 

[Edited to clarify meaning re cleaning]

Edited November 17, 2017 by JeremyC

[jwealleans]

The Coronation set was hand washed after every run: did that also apply to the SJ?

[richard i]

So two colour might be right!

Here is the ace colour. It looks much more aluminum.

So my coaches colour might be about right. But was the repaint after it became an eight car set, because if so mine would have to go into the earlier colour.

Richard

[Northroader]

There was a fad for “silver” paint soon after ww2, I remember it even extended to printing ink in magazines. The Irish system CIE decided to go for silver painted diesels with their first builds, but experience showed that it was pretty disastrous long term, as it weathered badly, and was soon changed to green. I would think that prewar service of the LNER even with a carefully tended premium train would go down the same route.

I used to make aircraft models for my son with plastic kits, and found that if you used just straight aluminium/ silver paint it handled badly, and evolved into painting them with a 50/50 mix of light grey and silver paint, which looked just as realistic, and handled much better.

[Nearholmer]

Here's what Hornby thought it looked like at the time (they clearly had the wrong glasses on), but notice that in the artwork on the left the loco is pale grey, and the train 'aluminium'.

 

Notice also that the artwork seems to show the locomotive exhaust getting drawn into the turbulence behind the rear car, which probably accurately reflects an issue in the days before it was properly understood that streamlining the back of things is as important as streamling the front.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Nearholmer

[JeremyC]

Here's what Hornby thought it looked like at the time (they clearly had the wrong glasses on), but notice that in the artwork on the left the loco is pale grey, and the train 'aluminium'.

 

Notice also that the artwork seems to show the locomotive exhaust getting drawn into the turbulence behind the rear car, which probably accurately reflects an issue in the days before it was properly understood that streamlining the back of things is as important as streamling the front.

Maybe they did understand that, hence the 'Beavertail' observation car on the Coronation? [Though some say that was built for styling reasons]

Edited November 17, 2017 by JeremyC

[Nearholmer]

But, the LNER poster artist had slightly the opposite idea ......

[micklner]

Hornby have done their most recent version in a pale almost white shade similar to the above poster. My kit built Jubilee set see page 1 (onwards) on my workshop thread was painted in Precision paint with LNER Silver Grey sides and is very similar to the poster. If the sides  were painted Aluminium, they would have had to change the Lettering and Numbers as they would have been virtually invisible on a Aluminium shade paint base, in photos the Lettering/ numbers are clearly visible.

 

This photo shows Dominion of New Zealand is in Garter Blue,  it show the Coaches very well , and being shown for education purposes only.

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by micklner

[Clearwater]

Here's what Hornby thought it looked like at the time (they clearly had the wrong glasses on), but notice that in the artwork on the left the loco is pale grey, and the train 'aluminium'.

Notice also that the artwork seems to show the locomotive exhaust getting drawn into the turbulence behind the rear car, which probably accurately reflects an issue in the days before it was properly understood that streamlining the back of things is as important as streamling the front.

I don't think their latest "attempt" was much better....

[Northroader]

I note that Hornby were really trying with the o gauge prewar tinplate coaches, having an articulated set, even if the loco was an 0-4-0. From that point of view the modern OO offering of mark 1s is really pathetic.

[Nearholmer]

For clarity, I'm not suggesting that the coaches were painted Aluminium; I'm pointing out that whatever colour they were, certain model makers and artists have represented it with a colour that looks like aluminium ......... I probably should say 'lightly oxidised aluminium'.

 

If they were repainted 'silver', it would be interesting to know what the pigment actually was; I'm betting it wasn't silver.

 

The lettering and trim stands out against the base colour very clearly, as in that excellent photo, and I'm guessing that it was either chrome-plated or stainless steel.

[coachmann]

The coaches were originally clad in Rexine, but as someone else said, it was later sprayed silver. I presume Rexine had a surface texture and so even after it was painted it would reflect light differently depending on how light hit it. This could make it look lighter than the locomotive or darker. The loco was of course wallpapered... I'm lying!

[Metr0Land]

But there was a different loco covered in wallpaper (advert for Solvite) just not a Streak

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Metr0Land

[Nearholmer]

I wonder what on earth possessed them to cover the outside of a train in Rexine, it seems such a strange choice.

 

Was a Director of the LNER a major shareholder in the Rexine company?

[Andy Hayter]

Pure speculation, but perhaps Rexene was used as a protective coat over the steel panels of the coaches.

 

It was already being used externally on cars - especially rooves - where its ability to protect and to flex with movement was a selling point.

 

LNER experiance with steel coaches was at that stage relatively limited.  We all now that steel rusts and maybe Rexene was seen as a way of reducing the need to paint - something that proved to be not the case, albeit that the painting was to keep a top of the range look about the exterior.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Andy Hayter

[Clive Mortimore]

The proper Silver Jubilee was black with silver trim.

 

http://www.jubilees.co.uk/images/photos/45552b.jpg

 

And it pulled some very nice Crimson Lake coaches.

[richard i]

The proper Silver Jubilee was black with silver trim.

 

http://www.jubilees.co.uk/images/photos/45552b.jpg

 

And it pulled some very nice Crimson Lake coaches.

Thank you Clive, funny but ......wrong line.

So what is rexene? I must google it.

[JeremyC]

Pure speculation, but perhaps Rexene was used as a protective coat over the steel panels of the coaches.

 

It was already being used externally on cars - especially rooves - where its ability to protect and to flex with movement was a selling point.

 

LNER experiance with steel coaches was at that stage relatively limited. We all now that steel rusts and maybe Rexene was seen as a way of reducing the need to paint - something that proved to be not the case, albeit that the painting was to keep a top of the range look about the exterior.

If so it doesn't seem to have worked as according to Harris's book when the Rexine was later removed it was found that moisture had percolated through it and caused considerable corrosion to the steel panels. Edited November 18, 2017 by JeremyC

[LNER4479]

I have no knowledge of the actual colours used, but according to Michael Harris's book 'Gresley's Coaches' when built the body panels were covered in silver grey Rexine, but despite careful cleaning this became stained within six months and Doncaster then sprayed the set silver, which was repeated at regular intervals. To me this suggests the possibility that painting may have changed the colour of the set.

 

[Edited to clarify meaning re cleaning]

Do bear in mind that, aside from the efforts to clean the coaches, the cleaning regime of the silver locos will have had a bearing on the relative appearance of the train in prototype pictured. The 'silver' livery on the locos - unsurprisingly - soon showed the dirt, despite best (and sometimes not so best) efforts. It soon acquired an overall patina which would make the loco appear darker than when originally painted. Not for nothing were the 4 original locos eventually painted blue... Edited November 18, 2017 by LNER4479

[Il Grifone]

Obviously Rexine was one of those "It seemed like a good idea at the time!" ideas....

 

There was probably a difference between locomotive and coaches because different departments were responsible for the finish. This is never a recipe for conformity...

 

Streamlining was one of those "Designer fads" in which an object is first designed to look pretty and then engineers have to try and make it work, instead of the other way round. We still suffer from this today - possibly even more so. I believe the ideal streamlining is raindrop shaped?

 

Hornby's excuse is that it was a bottom of the range 'toy train' and needed to be able to negotiate 9" radius curves (in 0 gauge!)*. Their effort is however considerably better than some of today's IMHO (The horrors with Far Eastern origins sold in various 'bargain shops' for example!)

 

* They still managed to capture the lines of the prototype, but were saving their energy for the Dublo range to be launched shortly afterwards and which included an excellent model of an A4.

[Northroader]

This is ideal streamlining: