Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[LNER4479]

Wandering around the layout just now (coming back down to earth!)

 

Garsdale handled trains in its interim 'terminus' configuration, just as previously.

 

Close up of two celebrity Carlisle locos. 45573 'Newfoundland'* has headed the Waverley, and waiting to bring it back is 60093 'Coronach' (ex-Haymarket 64B layout). Of course, this particular A3 would not have been seen on the S&C but others of the class were in the late 1950s.

(*before someone picks me up on it - yes, I know 45573 was a long time Holbeck loco but it worked into Carlisle over the S&C. Forever immortalised in the Peter Handford gramophone record 'Newfoundland heads the Waverley'. So that makes her a 'Carlisle' loco in my eyes! And may well on occasions have given way at Citadel to 60093 for the continuation of the journey over the Waverley route)

 

At Bog Junc, an ex-MR 4F trundles through with a coal train.

 

Central station is looking remarkably empty, meaning we must have been 'winning' in terms of getting trains out round the layout. In truth, it wasn't that simple and our ability to get trains turned round quickly waxed and waned throughout the day. Much was learnt though and things will improve.

 

Here's a symptom! The fiddle yard cum carriage sidings stuffed full of goods stock! The temptation to pull trains round there to free up the arrival roads for the next one being a little too great (mea culpa).

 

Here's an interesting (to me at least) view of what happens out the back of Central station. The longer trains go round the bend! Top - The Royal Scot, below that the Thames-Clyde Express. Below them, a Princess Royal from an earlier arrival heads down the centre release line to get to the shed. This aspect shows promise but need refining a little yet.

 

My grateful thanks to my visitors for giving up their Sunday to come and play and provide a fitting end to the work week. Progress will slow back down now to its usual rate(!) but it feels good to have pushed things on a bit 😉

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by LNER4479

[LNER4479]

11 hours ago, mullie said:

Ballasting next or is all the visible track on Peco foam?

Sorry - can see you've added a question.

 

Foam only on main running lines; other lines, sidings etc will be ballast, as will be Carlisle station area. I'm a bit hampered these days with point underlay no longer being part of the range. Station area ballast has a somewhat different appearance compared to a stretch of plain double track running through the countryside in any case.

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Seen here taking a breather from trying their hardest to break the layout

Well, you've got at least a couple of experts there.

[Barry O]

Thank you to Red Leader for letting us create havoc on the layoutand also the great bacon butty at lunch time.

 

I noted the large amounts of ballasting which will be required.. be nice to get some of it done before the room turns back into a fridge!

 

Baz

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

 

Next for doctor!!

 

Mike.

[Black Marlin]

I don't know if you've seen this picture, but it's right in your time period and location. A number of things are of interest. First, the locomotive is a Jubilee, which the rest of the book (referenced below) suggests had a surprisingly large and active presence on freight trains by BR days. Second, the variety of the stock in the train itself (and, crucially, the proportions of the various types of wagon) offer a good indication of the nature of a main line mixed freight into a major station. I'm particularly taken by the fact that there is only one container wagon while there are three bogie bolsters (and, possibly, a twin bolster or plate immediately after the last of these). 

 

(Photograph by Machell, Noel A.; reproduced in Healy, John M. C. [1990], British Railways Freight Steam, Silver Star Books, p.48)

[LNER4479]

48 minutes ago, Black Marlin said:

A number of things are of interest. First, the locomotive is a Jubilee, which the rest of the book (referenced below) suggests had a surprisingly large and active presence on freight trains by BR days. Second, the variety of the stock in the train itself (and, crucially, the proportions of the various types of wagon) offer a good indication of the nature of a main line mixed freight into a major station. I'm particularly taken by the fact that there is only one container wagon while there are three bogie bolsters (and, possibly, a twin bolster or plate immediately after the last of these). 
 

Not seen that particular picture (thanks!) but do have plenty like it on file!

 

The key factor here is the date - 1962. By that time, the diesel cascade was underway, meaning that the Jubilees, being somewhat secondary passenger locos, were losing their traditional work to the 7Ps (and others). You can see it from the allocation records - the Jubilees started getting reallocated to other depots for more mixed traffic work. The Jubilee in question here is a good case in point. According to BR Database, it was a Longsight then Bushbury loco in the 1950s - both depots that were predominantly passenger depots and the loco would no doubt have been seen on London expresses from both depots. But at the time of the photo, she was allocated to Crewe South (5B), which was the major WCML freight depot at Crewe. Crewe and Carlisle shared much of the express freight work between those two main WCML freight hubs. That having been said, their use on (express) freight trains in the 1950s was not unknown - the Patriots perhaps more so.

It's difficult to make out the lamp codes - as well as the lamp on the top, there's a splodge on both the middle and left hand (viewed from the front) lamp bracket, which means it's either a Code D or Code H. Code D is required to have at least a third of the train fitted and operable from the loco (ie, if not immediately behind the tender then through piped so the brakes are active). The first 7, at least until the bolsters, look to be fitted to me; thereafter, unsure ... which might make it a bit marginal for a Class D? Such things are far more significant in terms of a make-up of a traditional freight train than individual wagon types per se.

As a general strategy, the WCML route over Shap was used predominantly for the fast(er) express goods traffic, partly because of the restrictions on unbanked, non-fitted wagons, but mainly (I think) to simply keep the traffic moving. Perhaps less well-known is that the S&C was used a lot for the slower moving traffic from Crewe, via the somewhat convoluted Wigan-Chorley-Blackburn-Clitheroe-Hellifield connection. With a less severe gradient (relatively speaking) no banking was employed on the S&C and the traffic density was lighter so slower moving traffic, with a greater proportion of unfitted wagons, and an 8F at the front slogging up the long drag(!) was more the order of the day. The great benefit of my Carlisle scheme is that I can incorporate both!

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

46 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Not seen that particular picture (thanks!) but do have plenty like it on file!

 

The key factor here is the date - 1962. By that time, the diesel cascade was underway, meaning that the Jubilees, being somewhat secondary passenger locos, were losing their traditional work to the 7Ps (and others). You can see it from the allocation records - the Jubilees started getting reallocated to other depots for more mixed traffic work. The Jubilee in question here is a good case in point. According to BR Database, it was a Longsight then Bushbury loco in the 1950s - both depots that were predominantly passenger depots and the loco would no doubt have been seen on London expresses from both depots. But at the time of the photo, she was allocated to Crewe South (5B), which was the major WCML freight depot at Crewe. Crewe and Carlisle shared much of the express freight work between those two main WCML freight hubs. That having been said, their use on (express) freight trains in the 1950s was not unknown - the Patriots perhaps more so.

It's difficult to make out the lamp codes - as well as the lamp on the top, there's a splodge on both the middle and left hand (viewed from the front) lamp bracket, which means it's either a Code D or Code H. Code D is required to have at least a third of the train fitted and operable from the loco (ie, if not immediately behind the tender then through piped so the brakes are active). The first 7, at least until the bolsters, look to be fitted to me; thereafter, unsure ... which might make it a bit marginal for a Class D? Such things are far more significant in terms of a make-up of a traditional freight train than individual wagon types per se.

As a general strategy, the WCML route over Shap was used predominantly for the fast(er) express goods traffic, partly because of the restrictions on unbanked, non-fitted wagons, but mainly (I think) to simply keep the traffic moving. Perhaps less well-known is that the S&C was used a lot for the slower moving traffic from Crewe, via the somewhat convoluted Wigan-Chorley-Blackburn-Clitheroe-Hellifield connection. With a less severe gradient (relatively speaking) no banking was employed on the S&C and the traffic density was lighter so slower moving traffic, with a greater proportion of unfitted wagons, and an 8F at the front slogging up the long drag(!) was more the order of the day. The great benefit of my Carlisle scheme is that I can incorporate both!

 

 

Interesting things there.  First of all the date is right on the ci usp of the change (beyind the WR) from classfication by letter to classification by number with the Supplement to the General Appendix being dated 18 june 1962.  What might have happened however is that the change pre-dated that and the Supplement simply confirmed an earlier Notice?

 

Anyway as you say there are seemingly three lamps visible - even after enlarging theh photo and lightening it so while theh clearest lamps are definitely Class H (Class 8) it could potentially have been Class D (Class 5)because of what looks like that third lamp.   the other thing which happened when teh classifications were changed was that the requirement for fitted vehicles in the new Class 5  increased from one third in the former Class D to half in the new Class using the same lamp positions.  So dates become rather significant in trying to understand what was happening in a photo like this.

 

The first 7 vehocles definitely apoear to be fitted after enlarging and adjusting the photo and i would agree that it would have been marginal for Class D (let alone completely wrong for teh new Class 5.  I do wonder if in the event of there really beinga third lamp there the formation had been altered somewhrere and someone forgot to remove a lamp.  Or is what we are seeing at that end of the bufferbeam not a lamp at all (although it looks a bit like one even with the picture considerably enlarged).

[Black Marlin]

After reviewing the original image under a magnifying glass, I can confirm that it is a Class H headcode and that what appears to be a lamp over the right-hand buffer is a coincidence of the staining on the drystone walling behind the locomotive.

[LNER4479]

33 minutes ago, Black Marlin said:

After reviewing the original image under a magnifying glass, I can confirm that it is a Class H headcode and that what appears to be a lamp over the right-hand buffer is a coincidence of the staining on the drystone walling behind the locomotive.

That was my suspicion; thanks for confirming.

 

@The Stationmaster thanks for highlighting the letter-to-number classification changes - I'd completely overlooked that! My interest lies in the 1950s steam era and therefore progressively wanes for every year with a '6' in it thereafter.

 

I read somewhere of a propensity for the railwaymen of the day to adopt the principle of 'if in doubt, run it as a Class H!' It certainly reads as a 'catch all' headcode. Is that something you've come across?

Edited July 17, 2023 by LNER4479

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

That was my suspicion; thanks for confirming.

 

@The Stationmaster thanks for highlighting the letter-to-number classification changes - I'd completely overlooked that! My interest lies in the 1950s steam era and therefore progressively wanes for every year with a '6' in it thereafter.

 

I read somewhere of a propensity for the railwaymen of the day to adopt the principle of 'if in doubt, run it as a Class H!' It certainly reads as a 'catch all' headcode. Is that something you've come across?

It certainly seems y to have beena sort of policy on the GWR post-war when the vacuum fitted (at least partially if not fully) we reintroduced.  A number of them only survived part of their journey before being shown as (=) Class H after leabving so & so.

 

 The big  problem in the real world as opposed to the planners' aspirations was finding enough vacuum fitted, or even piped, vehicles to get the required percentages for the higher Class so it was either reduce the load - rather frowned upon I expect - or reduce the Class.    And similarly why make it harder work forming the train just to get the vac and non-vac sorted if they could all be left in the non-vac segregation?   Going on from that what I definitely found in yards even in the second half of the 1960s was a distinct aversion to having to deal with vac fitted wagons and a tendency not to bag-up the vacuum pipes wherever it could be avoided because it took time and meant going in-between.  If the job couldn't be done with a shunting pole there seemed to sometimes be an attitude that it couldn't be done at all.

Edited July 17, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[LMS29]

21 hours ago, Barry O said:

Thank you to Red Leader for letting us create havoc on the layoutand also the great bacon butty at lunch time.

 

I noted the large amounts of ballasting which will be required.. be nice to get some of it done before the room turns back into a fridge!

 

Baz

As Baz said, really enjoyable day with a great project. Cannot wait to see the next sections complete and scenery  building start.

 

Tom

[LNER4479]

18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

It certainly seems y to have beena sort of policy on the GWR post-war when the vacuum fitted (at least partially if not fully) we reintroduced.  A number of them only survived part of their journey before being shown as (=) Class H after leabving so & so.

 

Thanks @The Stationmaster. The point about the formation altering along route due to setting down / picking up traffic (which could be fitted or unfitted) is well made.

 

I also suspect - having worked at a few BR depots (albeit passenger ones) where shunting was involved - that it was a question of priorities. If a yard has some time-sensitive, high value Class C and D trains to attend to then they're going to get the attention over and above the lesser traffic. Perhaps Class H was even a tacit acknowledgement of that practicality of railway life?

 

All good stuff! We'll get immersed in the world of train headcodes in due course, once we have enough railway to run a meaningful working timetable over.

 

Incidentally, I did spend a couple of shifts (at one of said depots) shunting for real when staff got a strop on and wouldn't work overtime, leaving the afternoon shift uncovered. Respect to anyone who frequently 'went in between' to swing buckeyes and connect brake pipes, ETH and RCH jumper cables ... in the dark ... and the pouring rain. There was an unofficial 'rule' - max five shunts* per night. Timetable change night, when many of the formations changed, was a hoot - took us three weeks to get the least priority set into its correct formation!

(*meaning knocking a vehicle out and replacing it with another)

[Chamby]

The WTT I have for the former GC line to London would support the use of Class H as a default, it was used almost universally for the famed Windcutters/Runners.  Perhaps because it was impossible to predict the formation of each train until the day!

 

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks @The Stationmaster. The point about the formation altering along route due to setting down / picking up traffic (which could be fitted or unfitted) is well made.

 

I also suspect - having worked at a few BR depots (albeit passenger ones) where shunting was involved - that it was a question of priorities. If a yard has some time-sensitive, high value Class C and D trains to attend to then they're going to get the attention over and above the lesser traffic. Perhaps Class H was even a tacit acknowledgement of that practicality of railway life?

 

All good stuff! We'll get immersed in the world of train headcodes in due course, once we have enough railway to run a meaningful working timetable over.

 

Incidentally, I did spend a couple of shifts (at one of said depots) shunting for real when staff got a strop on and wouldn't work overtime, leaving the afternoon shift uncovered. Respect to anyone who frequently 'went in between' to swing buckeyes and connect brake pipes, ETH and RCH jumper cables ... in the dark ... and the pouring rain. There was an unofficial 'rule' - max five shunts* per night. Timetable change night, when many of the formations changed, was a hoot - took us three weeks to get the least priority set into its correct formation!

(*meaning knocking a vehicle out and replacing it with another)

You were lucky - I spent just over a week covering Passenger Shunters who were out on unofficial strike at Paddington.  Very little to do with dropping buckeyes but an awful lot of time hanging engines on or off stock, including steam heat where the boiler had been running on an arrival, and also those even worse ETH jumpers.  Chuck in, or rather slide about in, the dirty, oily wells in the four foot  and it was what I think is called a 'life forming experience'.

 

I don't know about 'up there' but the Marshalling Instructions for Western freights told yards what to leave off if the train would make up to full load with particular traffics.   Do that every day during theh week and come the weekend you'd be running a special/specials to clear all the surplus traffic which had built-up cluttering up your yard.

[LNER4479]

On 16/07/2023 at 08:24, Enterprisingwestern said:

Video camera broken then?!!

Everything comes to those who wait ...

 

Courtesy of Paul, we set this up carefully at the end of the session and it took just the one take. Noted subsequently that the train sets off with the rear tender wheels off the track (my bad!) but they get miraculously re-railed at Shap summit(!) - the wonder of trailing points. Other things to note include the length of time of the run - over two minutes - and note at the end as it arrives into Central station, it crosses under the tracks on which the run started, hence a complete circuit of the chapel, comfortably exceeding a scale mile.

Edited July 18, 2023 by LNER4479

[BoD]

So which member of the team needs the wicker chair stored under Shap?

 

Answers on a postcard to …

[Flying Fox 34F]

Good to see everyone enjoy themselves Spotting!  
Also is there a Claughton sat in the yard at Central?

Good to see the Project is progressing nicely.

 

Paul

[Enterprisingwestern]

10 hours ago, BoD said:

So which member of the team needs the wicker chair stored under Shap?

 

Answers on a postcard to …

 

Alan?

 

Mike.

[Enterprisingwestern]

11 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Everything comes to those who wait ...

 

Courtesy of Paul, we set this up carefully at the end of the session and it took just the one take. Noted subsequently that the train sets off with the rear tender wheels off the track (my bad!) but they get miraculously re-railed at Shap summit(!) - the wonder of trailing points. Other things to note include the length of time of the run - over two minutes - and note at the end as it arrives into Central station, it crosses under the tracks on which the run started, hence a complete circuit of the chapel, comfortably exceeding a scale mile.

 

Well done, congratulations to you all.

Did I mention patience was my middle name?,,,, oh, wait!

 

Mike.

[LNER4479]

13 hours ago, BoD said:

So which member of the team needs the wicker chair stored under Shap?

Destined for the balcony, along with the other one that's already up there, plus coffee table ... rug ... electric fire ... carpet slippers ... 'Clive - where the devil is my cuppa?'! 😄

 

4 hours ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

Also is there a Claughton sat in the yard at Central?

 

Ah - wondered who would spot that first? It's rather nice; been placed on long term loan to the project by a grateful modeller from Ireland who I visited recently to mend a few things for him. There's a set of coaches to go with it waiting for me on the next visit. Train will then be duly posed on Shap. The colour light signal and the cars will need air-brushing out!

[Clive Mortimore]

4 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Destined for the balcony, along with the other one that's already up there, plus coffee table ... rug ... electric fire ... carpet slippers ... 'Clive - where the devil is my cuppa?'! 😄

 

Ah - wondered who would spot that first? It's rather nice; been placed on long term loan to the project by a grateful modeller from Ireland who I visited recently to mend a few things for him. There's a set of coaches to go with it waiting for me on the next visit. Train will then be duly posed on Shap. The colour light signal and the cars will need air-brushing out!

Well if you don't inform the tea boy that an event is about to happen how can he perform his duties? 🤔

 

Do you take sugar?

[LNER4479]

All in good time. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[Barry O]

But there was a discussion about where the tea urn can be sited @Clive Mortimore..

 

Baz

[mullie]

21 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Everything comes to those who wait ...

 

Courtesy of Paul, we set this up carefully at the end of the session and it took just the one take. Noted subsequently that the train sets off with the rear tender wheels off the track (my bad!) but they get miraculously re-railed at Shap summit(!) - the wonder of trailing points. Other things to note include the length of time of the run - over two minutes - and note at the end as it arrives into Central station, it crosses under the tracks on which the run started, hence a complete circuit of the chapel, comfortably exceeding a scale mile.

Must feel good to have got this far, looks great.

 

Martyn