Colman's wagons, real and model

[Johann Marsbar]

That Barclay Fireless from Leicester Power Station should eventually meet up with the Ellis & Everard wagon again as it is the intention that it is moved to Mountsorrel Heritage Centre at some stage...

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Johann Marsbar said:

That Barclay Fireless from Leicester Power Station should eventually meet up with the Ellis & Everard wagon again as it is the intention that it is moved to Mountsorrel Heritage Centre at some stage...

 

That is good news.

 

Thread drift, I realise, but lots of good things to see at the Mountsorrel site:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Edwardian

[Johann Marsbar]

The Fireless "should" have gone there last year from storage at Snibston, but Covid put paid to that. In the meantime the Jinty, 47406, has taken up residence there until it gets overhauled later this year. The Fireless won't appear until that has gone as there isn't room for it until then!

The kit of parts for the Stephenson lift bridge should be the next things to arrive.....

http://heritage-centre.co.uk/in-the-press/stephenson-lift-bridge/

....though even they have been held up by the current Lockdown. Hopefully they will appear in the next few months, though only the metal parts were saved when it was taken apart at Snibston, which means that new timbers have to be sourced (and paid for..).

 

Don't forget this is there now as well...

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Johann Marsbar
added photo

[Compound2632]

I am averting my gaze from certain details on that Midland brake...

 

For some reason wagon restorers seem to struggle with Midland livery - perhaps its very simplicity offends. 

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I am averting my gaze from certain details on that Midland brake...

 

For some reason wagon restorers seem to struggle with Midland livery - perhaps its very simplicity offends. 

 

[Johann Marsbar]

17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I am averting my gaze from certain details on that Midland brake...

 

For some reason wagon restorers seem to struggle with Midland livery - perhaps its very simplicity offends. 

 

Well this is definitely wrong for the period when the van in question was built - and they know it - but it still looks rather nice (and it was fully restored from a wreck in 3 months!)

 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

Well this is definitely wrong for the period when the van in question was built - and they know it - but it still looks rather nice (and it was fully restored from a wreck in 3 months!)

 

 

Having recently had some very helpful correspondence with a couple of the Mountsorrel Railway people over a photo of early Midland wagons, I'm in no hurry to be critical. It's a place I'd like to get to, once we can.

[Mark Saunders]

The matter of what colour to paint it or style is secondary the main thing is that it has been restored and well painted to protect against the elements!

[Edwardian]

Back to the covered wagons ....

 

- I still wonder about seed transportation. Carrow Works, I read, was established ion 1856, main production was there from 1865 and the GER lines to the work were certainly there by 1880, the date of the earliest OS survey at the national Library of Scotland.  I could have a go at dating the cattle wagon photo based on the loco, but I believe it's given as 1896.   I just wonder what the situation was c.1880 to 1908.  I might have expected Colman's to become dissatisfied with cattle wagons somewhat earlier than 1908.  That said, building wagons you can only use once a year is never going to be something you want to do.  I don't know when mustard seeds were harvested or whether two crops a year was possible, or whether the harvest season was a short or longer period than with other crops though I suspect it depended on the weather. Potentially you need very many wagons, more than Colman's might have bought, but over a fairly short annual period, with traffic coming from multiple sites in south Lincs and north Cambs. 

 

- We have one known example built in 1908.  presumably either Colman's records attested to this and/or it had a works plate to confirm. Presumably these sources confirm Harrison & Camm as the builders.

 

- Nowhere have I seen any published information on how many were ordered, or if orders were placed with other manufacturers, or, indeed, whether there was more than one order with Harrison & Camm. In other words, we don't know the sixe of the fleet of the date(s) it might have been supplied?

 

- We are on safe ground assuming there were Starch traffic vans.  Can this livery be dated?  What vintage were the tinplate models that first show it?

 

- I think it's been pointed out before, but there is additional strapping on the lower body on the preserved wagon.  I note that is is not evident on this wagon in the pre-preservation picture below. Do we think that is as-built, or added later, or a preservation feature, or that it might denote differences between batches as-built?   

 

- There are other minor differences between the preserved van and the builder's photograph reproduced.  For instance, the door sills are deeper on the preserved vehicle and the preserved vehicle appears to lack bolt heads marking the internal diagonal bracing.  There is a cluster of 3, which can be readily seen on the worn vans also.  You can see these, but only the right hand 3 (!) faithfully reproduced on the Carette tinplate model.

 

- Can we detect the presence or absence of such strapping on the two worn vans pictured?

 

It seems to me that these vans beg more questions than they answer. 

 

  

[Nearholmer]

1 minute ago, Edwardian said:

We are on safe ground assuming there were Starch traffic vans.  Can this livery be dated?  What vintage were the tinplate models that first show it?

 

Very much the same date as the mustard one, 1911 IIRC, but later I might get time to ferret back through contemporary magazines and confirm precisely.

 

The models almost certainly weren't made immediately after the wagons entered traffic, because BL/Carette were creating a series, based partly on polling what customers desired, and they released them at a rate dictated by what the market could soak-up and research/design/production lead-times. They seem to have looked to release half a dozen new ones in the lead-up to Christmas each year, based partly on a poll of demand in the spring.

[Compound2632]

I withdraw my suggestion the the RH of the two "worn" vans has no inscription other than "Colman's"; it certainly has "Traffic" and possibly "Starch" - there's the suggestion of an S to the left of the doors.

 

The "just arrived for restoration" photo reveals the internal X framing of the sides. The line of three bolts on the diagonal is where the two timbers cross, I think there's a metal plate on the inside, just hinted at in the photo. The vertical boards are nailed in place - a diagonal line of nails into the X-timbers can be seen, along with a pair of nails at the bottom of each board.

 

As to the long pieces of metalwork along the bottom of the sides, these are, I am sure, additions - they look to have been welded onto the corner ironwork. Are they part of the restoration? Well, the restorers could tell us. One point is that we're only looking at one side of the decrepit van - by the look of it the side in poorer condition - and only one side of the restoration. Is this metalwork visible on the LH van in the "worn" photo? It seems to me that the dark line is too high up. It looks more as if a substantial chamfer has been put on the top edge of the side-rail.

 

As to the apparent difference in depth of the side-rail between the "as built" photo and the preserved vehicle (both before and after restoration), I think that's due to the original being chamfered along its lower edge, as was commonly done, but at some point the side-rail has been renewed and the replacement has been left square-cornered.

 

What is known of the history of the preserved vehicle? How did it come to survive?

 

[Edwardian]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I withdraw my suggestion the the RH of the two "worn" vans has no inscription other than "Colman's"; it certainly has "Traffic" and possibly "Starch" - there's the suggestion of an S to the left of the doors.

 

I do think that is an 'S', and one can also detect the rest of the word Starch and Traffic.

 

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The "just arrived for restoration" photo reveals the internal X framing of the sides. The line of three bolts on the diagonal is where the two timbers cross, I think there's a metal plate on the inside, just hinted at in the photo. The vertical boards are nailed in place - a diagonal line of nails into the X-timbers can be seen, along with a pair of nails at the bottom of each board.

 

I had not noticed the nail holes.  In which case the construction of the preserved van matches the in-service pictures, I just cannot detect the bolt heads on the preserved vehicle.

 

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

As to the long pieces of metalwork along the bottom of the sides, these are, I am sure, additions - they look to have been welded onto the corner ironwork. Are they part of the restoration? Well, the restorers could tell us. One point is that we're only looking at one side of the decrepit van - by the look of it the side in poorer condition - and only one side of the restoration. Is this metalwork visible on the LH van in the "worn" photo? It seems to me that the dark line is too high up. It looks more as if a substantial chamfer has been put on the top edge of the side-rail.

 

When I first looked at the LH van, I thought I was seeing those horizontal straps, but on second look was unconvinced.  My working assumption is that this is a preservation feature, but the preservers could undoubtedly shed some light here.

 

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As to the apparent difference in depth of the side-rail between the "as built" photo and the preserved vehicle (both before and after restoration), I think that's due to the original being chamfered along its lower edge, as was commonly done, but at some point the side-rail has been renewed and the replacement has been left square-cornered.

 

What is known of the history of the preserved vehicle? How did it come to survive?

 

 

It is stated to be 4807, which I assume is a manufacturer's works number, not a fleet number, and to be by Harrison & Camm 1908. It was gifted by Colman's. 

 

The Colman's company historian would be potentially of some help. I suspect that is someone at Unilever. 

[Compound2632]

51 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I had not noticed the nail holes.  In which case the construction of the preserved van matches the in-service pictures, I just cannot detect the bolt heads on the preserved vehicle.

 

Sorry, yes, the restorers have missed out this feature. Their restoration is not expected to have to put up with the sort of shunting to which in-service vans would have been subjected, requiring the extra strengthening where the frame timbers cross.

 

53 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

It is stated to be 4807, which I assume is a manufacturer's works number, not a fleet number, and to be by Harrison & Camm 1908.

 

That seems reasonable. Harrison & Camm was established in 1861. Between 1887 and 1902, they built around 2,300 wagons that were registered by the Midland. As their works was located on the Midland, that probably represents well over half their output. Therefore 4807 could well be the works number of a wagon built in 1908. It could, however, also be their fleet number if the wagon was on hire or hire-purchase to Coleman's.

 

Unfortunately the registration plate isn't decipherable in either the photo of the van or the photos of two coal wagons, though their builder's plate is clear enough. (I should have mentioned that along with the axleboxes.) The Midland PO wagon registers survive complete but the transcript I have (through the generosity of Ian Pope) is only for the first three volumes, to 1902. I don't know what Harrison and Camm records survive, or the GER PO wagon registers - Richard @wagonman may be able to comment.

 

Harrison & Camm's advertising features a very familiar-looking sort of wagon:

 

 

On close inspection, that numberplate reads: S&DJR 457; the wagon has the chunky wooden doorstop characteristic of the Highbridge version of the standard Midland high sided goods wagon but retains the short Midland lever. 

 

Russ Garner's Register gives Nos. 457-476 inclusive (which passed to the LSWR in 1914 becoming SR D1304) as built 1883. So we can infer that this batch of twenty wagons* were built by Harrison & Camm, to the Midland design. This fits with a general pattern of procurement from outside builders rather than from the workshops of one of the parent companies, probably for legal reasons. S.J. Claye built a batch of Road Vans in 1899 (following on, in fact, from a batch built at Derby in 1896); Oldbury and Cravens built passenger carriages c. 1891.

 

*A specification was issued in October 1882 for fifty wagons, MRSC Item 13683. Perhaps the final order was split between two builders.

 

Apologies for the thread drift.

 

[PaulG]

21 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

It is stated to be 4807, which I assume is a manufacturer's works number, not a fleet number, and to be by Harrison & Camm 1908. It was gifted by Colman's. 

 

 

Is the attached of any help? 

 

John Watling is the President of the Great Eastern Railway Society and President-elect of the M&GN Circle , where the attached was published. I contacted Nigel Scarlett of the M&GN Society, involved with the Society's rolling stock restoration and he supplied me with the copy.

 

Paul

Colmans van history J Watling 2-5-2018.pdf

[Edwardian]

4 minutes ago, PaulG said:

 

Is the attached of any help? 

 

John Watling is the President of the Great Eastern Railway Society and President-elect of the M&GN Circle , where the attached was published. I contacted Nigel Scarlett of the M&GN Society, involved with the Society's rolling stock restoration and he supplied me with the copy.

 

Paul

Colmans van history J Watling 2-5-2018.pdf 1.57 MB · 0 downloads

 

Perfect, thank you.

 

So, outbound traffic.  And no need for block trains of them.

 

This makes in many ways a lot more sense than limiting them to seasonal inbound seed traffic.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

5 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

So, outbound traffic. 

 

What makes you think that the author had any more clues about what they were actually used for than we do? He may have ha, but the way he writes makes me suspect that maybe he didn't.

 

Might he be contactable?

Edited March 26, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

What makes you think that the author had any more clues about what they were actually used for than we do? He may have ha, but the way he writes makes me suspect that maybe he didn't.

 

Might he be contactable?

 

I know of John Watling through his excellent summaries of GER coach development and articles for the GERS magazine. That tends to cause him to command my confidence. 

 

What does he say that causes you doubt?

 

'Starch Traffic' makes a little more sense as a designation of outbound traffic (flour in, starch out), thinking about it, though hardly a decisive consideration.

 

[Nearholmer]

On re-reading, he is a bit more definitive than I thought. I wonder how he knows?

 

Go on: ask him.

 

BTW, yet another tinplate version of the coal wagon has been released since this thread began, by Ace Trains, as part of an "East Anglia PO" set, and its so popular that there are now going to be boxed sets of three, with different numbers. I need to schedule out all the tinplate Colman's wagons, but I'm not doing that in case it brings out the collector in me ........ I'm still on tinplate milk tankers at the moment, and can't afford money or space for this lot besides!

 

 

Ace Trains, x3 Set O Gauge, G/5-WS11, Private Owner Coal Wagons, "Colmans" Set 11.

x3 Wagon Set. Tin printed bodies with die cast chassis. Litho embossed tinplate construction. 2/3 Rail running wheels. Detailed coal inserts.
Boxed in iACE Trains presentation numbered set box.
 

 Colmans Wagons R/N's 30,34,37.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

There really needs to be some compelling reason why Colman's resorted to buying their own vehicles for distribution when the use of railway company wagons would have been the norm. 

 

My take on the sale to the GER/LNER is that it was a bid to dispose of assets that had become liabilities. Hill was doing them a kindness. 

 

I await Mr. Watling's primary sources. Dr Johnson is one of my heroes: I'm very far from asserting literary fraud here but "produce your originals".

[Nearholmer]

A large cargo of “Starch, collars (officers dress shirts) for the stiffening of” being shunted into place for unloading at army stores.

 

 

[Edwardian]

5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

A large cargo of “Starch,

 

 

 

I want a delivery, to help with my upper lip.

[Compound2632]

That's the only second time I've used the "supportive" emoticon in response to a poster's clothing-related comments.

[Compound2632]

Sorry I was probably being a bit too hard on Mr Watling. His documentary research seems sound, e.g. 4807 being the GER PO registration number. It 's just the use for outbound traffic that needs evidence to convince.

[wagonman]

On 24/03/2021 at 14:43, Mark Saunders said:

The matter of what colour to paint it or style is secondary the main thing is that it has been restored and well painted to protect against the elements!

 

Ah! That puts me in mind of Ambrose Bierce's great work:

"PAINTING, n. The art of protecting flat surfaces from the weather and exposing them to the critic."

 

 

[wagonman]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I don't know what Harrison and Camm records survive, or the GER PO wagon registers - Richard @wagonman may be able to comment.

 

 

 

 

Indeed he can – after a bit of ferreting around I have found the relevant details. The van was part of a batch (J&J Colman nos 41-59, GER reg 4796-4814) built by Harrison & Camm and registered in December 1908.

 

The post-1887 GER registers are at York, but the earliest ones have suffered some damage over the years.