Clearwater Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Hi I brought a Saint 4mm chassis kit from Perserverance about 18m ago to fit under an old body I inherited from my father. I subsequently understand, from postings here, that the proprietor of Perserverance has passed away. Having now got to a place where I wish to start building it, I have been reading the instructions and have a couple of queries. 1) the instructions refer to a labelling of the spacers. However, looking at the etch, I can't see any numbers. Are they set out in a logical sequence? 2) the instructions also state, and I'm paraphrasing, that the etch bogie isn't correct but the cast one supplied is. My kit is brass only. Does anyone know what the error is and where I could obtain a more accurate bogie? The etches are labelled Ron Neep, I assume the original designer. Pictures below. Many thanks in advance David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) The etched bogie is a plate-framed one intended for the Hawksworth County and Modified Hall. Why it was repeated on the "Saint" chassis etch, only Rod Neep knows, and he's long gone from the railway modelling scene. You need a "bar-framed" bogie, and a useful etch for this can be obtained from Wizard Models' Comet brand. The spacers should have had numbering on the outside of the etch "frame". Yours doesn't have it, probably because the numbers would have been adjacent to the P4/18.83 spacers which are missing, as are the EM ones. Edited February 19, 2018 by Horsetan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Hi Clearwater, Horse is right - it is effectively the wrong chassis. Would you like me to flake a couple of sneaky pictures of No. 2999’s frames at the weekend to help this along? All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 Hi Castle Yes - that would be appreciated. However, I’m going for a curved frame version whereas 2999, if I recall, will be straight framed. However, I don’t think that effects the front bogie design? Many thanks David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) duplicated Edited February 21, 2018 by Clearwater Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 Castle I've dug out my copy of Russell GWR Engines. Measuring, it appears to me that a Saint's frames are approx 6" longer than a Halls. If I understand correctly, the wheel spacings are identical but the Hall has slightly larger cylinder. Is this right? David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 Look forward to watching this progress given a perseverance chassis for a wills Saint is next on my work bench. I have already built a Comet bogie to go with it I will look at mine tomorrow and see if I can help with the spacer numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 Look forward to watching this progress given a perseverance chassis for a wills Saint is next on my work bench. I have already built a Comet bogie to go with it I will look at mine tomorrow and see if I can help with the spacer numbers. Thanks Rich - much appreciated. Out of interest, do you know the reference for the Comet bogie? I have another chassis kit I could cannibalise but I'd rather purchase the additional bogie as I suspect it won't be very much. Alternatively, I was considering short cutting and ordering a Hornby Star bogie from Peters Spares. The Perserverance one I one looks better suited for a straight frame build. There's a half etch line to cut out for the frame drop at the cab however there doesn't appear to be an equivalent at the front. I was planning to go for Ivanhoe as photographed at Snow Hill in 1936 http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh42.htm using a Wills body. I also own a straight frame body of unknown provenance that's likely at some point to become Lady of Lynn which is snapped here: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1761.htm David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Hi Castle Yes - that would be appreciated. However, I’m going for a curved frame version whereas 2999, if I recall, will be straight framed. However, I don’t think that effects the front bogie design? Many thanks David Hi David, Nope - the Swindon De Glehn bogie is common to the likes of Saints, Stars, Castles, Halls. Modified Halls and Counties have the bogies as per your kit bits - the Swindon plate frame job. The running plate and hanging bar is the bit that is different. The frames on the Halls and Saints go all the way to the cylinder block, the cylinder block is then effect’the next bit of the frames’ and incorporates the smokebox saddle. There are then what is known as extension frames out the front. It’s the same on 28XXs, 47XXs, and several other designs. On the 4 cylinder jobs and the County / Mod. Halls the frames go all the way to the buffer beam. I hope this helps! All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) Castle I've dug out my copy of Russell GWR Engines. Measuring, it appears to me that a Saint's frames are approx 6" longer than a Halls. If I understand correctly, the wheel spacings are identical but the Hall has slightly larger cylinder. Is this right? David Hi David, I’ll need to check that - I would have thought that you have that backwards as the Collett cab on the Halls requires more room than the Churchward one on the Saint. I’m prepared to be wrong though... The Saints started with 18” cylinders but later had 18 1/2” cylinders. There is also a difference in where the centre line of the cylinder bore meets the centre line of the wheels. Someone will doubtless correct me if I’m wrong but I seem to remember that the early 18” chaps were on a common centre line and later on it was cylinder bore centres above the centre line of the wheels. It was made the patterns for No. 2999 a bit trickier as the drawings for the not in line ones is still extant but the in line one wasn’t if you get my drift... Enough rambling! All the best, Castle Edit: I rambled so much, I missed a question! Yes, Hall and Saint wheel spacings are the same. The first Hall of course being a converted Saint which I’m sure you know. Big wheels in the Saint (6’ 8 1/2” diameter) and smaller wheels (6’) in the Hall. I’ll stop now... Edited February 21, 2018 by Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 22, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 22, 2018 Thanks Rich - much appreciated. Out of interest, do you know the reference for the Comet bogie? I have another chassis kit I could cannibalise but I'd rather purchase the additional bogie as I suspect it won't be very much. Alternatively, I was considering short cutting and ordering a Hornby Star bogie from Peters Spares. David Part Ls6 I think, for about a fiver. It’s listed on the loco components page on the old comet website (much better for finding things than Wizards website). It comes with parts for both types of bogie, I built mine for the Saint and then used the leftover parts to upgrade the perseverance etch for a County Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 Part Ls6 I think, for about a fiver. It’s listed on the loco components page on the old comet website (much better for finding things than Wizards website). It comes with parts for both types of bogie, I built mine for the Saint and then used the leftover parts to upgrade the perseverance etch for a County Thanks - i also find Wizard’s site hard to search on. I’d looked on Comets but in the chassis section and hence hadn’t found it Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Hi I brought a Saint 4mm chassis kit from Perserverance about 18m ago to fit under an old body I inherited from my father. I subsequently understand, from postings here, that the proprietor of Perserverance has passed away. Having now got to a place where I wish to start building it, I have been reading the instructions and have a couple of queries. 1) the instructions refer to a labelling of the spacers. However, looking at the etch, I can't see any numbers. Are they set out in a logical sequence? 2) the instructions also state, and I'm paraphrasing, that the etch bogie isn't correct but the cast one supplied is. My kit is brass only. Does anyone know what the error is and where I could obtain a more accurate bogie? The etches are labelled Ron Neep, I assume the original designer. Pictures below. Many thanks in advance David IMG_1751.JPG IMG_1752.JPG David If it helps the numbering goes left to right 1 being the first on the left and being numbered 1 to 7, but there are 2 or numbers 5,6 & 7 Kits first came with all 3 gauge spacers, Chris then saw a marketing opportunity of selling them as stand alone spares and supplying only the required gauge spacers with the kits Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 Thanks John - much appreciated. A closer reread of the instructions suggests they’re interchangeable and up to the builder which ones are used and where depending on how you plan to fit the body to the chassis. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Thanks - i also find Wizard’s site hard to search on.... It's wonderfully random. You put search parameters in, and can obtain things you hadn't expected.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Thanks John - much appreciated. A closer reread of the instructions suggests they’re interchangeable and up to the builder which ones are used and where depending on how you plan to fit the body to the chassis. David David On the 44xx chassis etch I have (from which the spacers come from) it shows on the fret which holds the side frames what number goes where, to be quite honest the number suggested seemed a bit of overkill, The spacers/side frames are slot and tab so going down in size is fine, a bit of filing may be required if using a larger size Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 22, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 22, 2018 Here is the numbering Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 Thanks John and Rich - much appreciated. One further question. If I'm tarting up the fittings, what's the best source for whistles? I find the white metal ones per the Wills kit are a bit clumsy and would like to ideally replace. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 22, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 22, 2018 The last ones I used were from PDK, which should be visible on my last 47xx blog. I’m pretty sure that Gibson and Markits also both do them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Hi All, Well then, I took a few pictures today! Let’s have a look shall we? Class is now in session. I will be mentioning cylinder drain cocks at one point and ther will be no sniggering when I do - ok? Right- as No. 2999 now has a whole heap of cladding on and her boiler back in place, I decided to go off to centre sidings to illustrate the point about the way that Saint and Hall (among many other GWR types) front ends are constructed. Above the spooky shadow (!) is the cylinder block from Maindy Hall. The cylinder block is in the middle and there are two sets of extension frames fore and aft. On the left is the section where the buffer beam is attached. On the right is where the main frames are attached along with various spreaders and motion attachment points. You can tell the difference because there are lots more holes in the rear set. You can also see the cut out shape under the cylinder block for the bogie wheels to sit in. This is the view from the front. You can see the front extension frames here as well as the all important seam in the middle. The clever bit about this cylinder block is that it is not handed. This means that in order to make this block, Swindon cast two of the same casting, machined then and attached them together back to back. Clever stuff! For further interest, here are a few more details. Here is the view from the rear of the block and we can see the rear cylinder covers and they have attachment points for the slide bars that take the cross heads. The two studs in the middle take the gland packing to make the piston rod steam tight and down and to the left of this is where the pressure relief valve is mounted. Above the cylinder cover is the valve bore and on top of the whole unit, the two together form the smokebox saddle. Here we can see the join between the two cylinder castings. The two lumps inside of the valve bores are part of the exhaust system that goes up to the centre and thence through the blast pipe, sending the exhaust through the chimney. This next shot is looking down the valve bore - why? Because I thought you might like a look! The big hole are the exhaust ports and the small holes are the live steam ports. The live steam ports are smaller than the exhaust ports because once the steam is used in the cylinders, it expands so it needs more room to get out, hence the larger exhaust slots. Behind that is the dark of the steam chest and the rear valve bore can be seen in the distance. This is the front edge of the cylinder bore and you can see the ports in the top of it. There are a matching set at the rear. The hole at the bottom is for one of the cylinder drain cocks. I can hear you at the back... Notice that the cylinder cover studs at the top pass through where the ports are (sometimes known as stay studs) and these are steam tight and as a result are not easy things to replace... And this is the view down the bore. So that’s the theory, here’s a bit of practice! This is the front of the cylinders on No. 2999. We can see that they have been clad on the outside but not on the ends. The running plate is above and we can see the front extension frames leading forwards. Some of the ceramic insulation is visible (remember that back in the day this was all asbestos!), as is the centre and the front wheel of the bogie. A small part of the rear bogie wheel is just visible and the large brass lump is the pressure relief valve. This is the rear of the cylinder block. The rear cover here has its slide bars attached, the piston rod running through it and the gland and it’s retainer block in place. There is also a cover over the rear valve, the valve rod running through it and another smaller gland in place too. Another pressure relief valve is also present. The cladding is also missing from this end too. Again, insulation will go underneath to keep it all warm. This is a view of the Swindon De Ghlen bar framed bogie and it is a pretty standard design. This is ex. Maindy Hall and was transferable to Lady of Legend with a few small modifications to take care of the changes of height due to the larger driving my wheels of the Saint Class design. The red oxide painted piece is the cover from the front of the valve chest. I would have moved it but I wasn’t sure if the paint was 100% dry! By way of a contrast with that which has come before, here are the frames of No. 1014 which are ex Modified Hall. Big difference, right?! The frames come all the way through to the buffer beam. The cylinders are bolted to the outside of the frames and there is strengthening on the other side to help distribute the loads along with the bogie pivot. The smokebox saddle is also a separate pice not fitted here. The grey bit sticking up is the top of the exhaust pipework and it is on this end piece that the blast pipe is fixed. And finally, here is a view of the Swindon plate frame bogie. I hope that was in some small way interesting or informative! Here endeth the lesson for today... All the best, Castle 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted May 17, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 17, 2023 Any chance of these photos being reposted please?😀 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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