TMC announce NER G5 0-4-4T

[Edwardian]

Because it was a bright sunny day when I took my first pictures, I thought I'd try a dull (rainy) day in the North East, both indoors and out.

 

This time I've thrown in the Class A. I don't hold this out as by any means the median NER Saxony green, IMHO it tends to the blue end. As I say, I'm generally comfortable with a range of shades.

 

 

Let's try to be fair and reduce the brightness of the image by 50%, as in the picture above, the loco is 'glowing' more than it does to my naked eye:

 

 

So that now looks closer to how I see the colour, outside on an overcast day in the North. 

 

If, instead, I de-saturate by 20% it gives a suggestion of how I see the loco in shade, it starts to look paler:

 

 

Below, brightness down by 20%, saturation by 10%, which is about as far as I can go with this picture without distorting the colours of the other models:

 

 

Moving indoors there was not a whole lot of difference

 

 

To reduce the glare, I have, again, reduced the brightness by 50%, though this is starting to make the other engines appear too gloomy, darker than I perceived them:

 

 

When I closed the blinds and turned the light off, which made things too gloomy to focus properly, so definitely darker than layout operating light levels:

 

:

Again, if I take the brightness down, the image reflects what I see better:

 

 

 

In short, the pronounced lightness and yellowness of the Bachmann shade never really goes away, whatever the lighting conditions, and, alongside other interpretations of Saxony green, all more or less reasonable IMHO, I would say, it is certainly the outlier. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Edwardian

[JonathonAG]

Anybody in the York area willing to put their G5 up against a 1:1 NER paint job?

 

Would that, even if shown to be similar, be conclusive?  I doubt it....

[JaymzHatstand]

40 minutes ago, JonathonAG said:

Anybody in the York area willing to put their G5 up against a 1:1 NER paint job?

 

Would that, even if shown to be similar, be conclusive?  I doubt it....

 

As mine is in LNER black, I thinking would be less than conclusive!

 

The underlying material will make a big difference to the colour, shade and sheen of the paint too, as will whatever varnish/polish is applied over the top.

 

As an example, I have a Hornby Duke of Gloucester which is a product of their Design Clever phase. Now, many if you will remember the terrible rendition of BR green that was en vogue with the red-boxers at the time, was rather insipid and washed out. A coat of Johnsons Kleer over the green has really improved it, not only its shade, but also lustre.

 

 

Would the same sort of treatment improve the NER green? I do have the E1, which is in the green in question (fictitious as it is on an E1) and eventually will see about doing something about its brightness. I'll certainly be interested to see what other people do with theirs (if indeed they feel the need to of course!)

 

Cheers

 

J

 

 

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, JonathonAG said:

Anybody in the York area willing to put their G5 up against a 1:1 NER paint job?

 

Would that, even if shown to be similar, be conclusive?  I doubt it....

 

I don't think anyone here expects a conclusive result; it's more what each of us feels is a reasonable shade!

 

5 minutes ago, JaymzHatstand said:

The underlying material will make a big difference to the colour, shade and sheen of the paint too, as will whatever varnish/polish is applied over the top.

 

As an example, I have a Hornby Duke of Gloucester which is a product of their Design Clever phase. Now, many if you will remember the terrible rendition of BR green that was en vogue with the red-boxers at the time, was rather insipid and washed out. A coat of Johnsons Kleer over the green has really improved it, not only its shade, but also lustre.

 

Would the same sort of treatment improve the NER green? I do have the E1, which is in the green in question (fictitious as it is on an E1) and eventually will see about doing something about its brightness. I'll certainly be interested to see what other people do with theirs (if indeed they feel the need to of course!)

 

 

Very nice, too.

 

I struggle with the idea that any treatment would ameliorate the pronounced lightness and yellowness in this case. I have an O class to paint. Whatever shade I light on for Saxony green, it is unlikely to be as light or as yellow, so I now wonder whether I face the prospect of painting two O Class? They don't have to match, but I don't think the colour range should be as great as I suspect would be the case here. 

 

Anyway, I really mithered you all again to post this:

 

 

Of course, we have only these photos to go on, but ...

 

It's a Science Museum group artefact, stated to date from "c.1890". Well, IIRC, Wilson Worsdell's simplified lined green was not applied until 1892, so in effect this is being held out as a contemporary representation of this new livery, as seen on a Tenant 2-4-0. I would suggest that makes it interesting and worthy of consideration.

 

I say that it is in W Worsdell livery because the frames are black, but the lining with the incurves seen on the tender suggests the Tenant era. Physically the loco appears to be in its original form, i.e. without a Worsdell boiler. Tenant livery saw the re-introduction of Saxony green, but without the dark green borders of late Fletcher livery. Tenant livery should, however, show dark claret frames. In either case, it would appear to be an 1890s rendition of Saxony green.

 

Not at all scientific, but if I take a patch from the 1890s model, from the tender side, I get this:

 

 

 

For fun, here is a patch from the splasher of Joel's G1:

 

 

 

As Joel's G1 is possibly taken in slightly brighter light, and is certainly less grimy than the Tenant, I darkened the brightness by 20%:

 

 

So, side by side:

 

 

 

All a bit random and unscientific, but it does argue somewhat in favour of considering the Phoenix Precision paint.

 

And again a selection of models all or none of which may be in Saxony green!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Porcy Mane]

Maybe this is where Bachmann got it's paint samples from.  Due deference to historical accuracy and all that.

 

 

[Barry O]

On 28/06/2023 at 16:43, Bernard Lamb said:

I reckon that you are thinking of Masons. They supplied Midland Red paint to the original company and continued to supply it to the LMS and BR. You will find people who insist that the later colours are different but AFAIK the mix never changed. They were certinly around later than the 1970s as the last time I used them was around 1995.

What I can safely say is that Midland Red when applied to a locomotive depicted less variation than NER Saxon Green.

Bernard

And if you tried using Masons Midland red on yout 4mm and 7mm locos .. it looked "wrong".

 

I don't care about swatches or colour matching (after all, the various preserved locos across the world aren't always correct and some have been stood around for many years)

 

I like my Class O. It matches my Class A in colour shade. The Bachmann J72 looks a bit dark but I have a one I painted myself many years ago which is not as dark as the  Bachmann one but not as light as the O or the A. The A and the more recent J72 are painted using Halfords grey spray undercoat and Precision Darlington  Green

 

BUT  precision Darlington Green is quite dull. Buff it up with car polish and it looks a different colour.

 

Baz

Edited June 29, 2023 by Barry O

[it's-er]

Ok folks - we’ve had a good session on the colour of the NER versions of the G5!  I’d really like to see some photographs on your model railways, and some comment on how many coaches your G5 models can pull, please.

 

I know my two black versions have been delivered - one LNER and one early BR - but I am volunteering in the Middle East for an extended period, and I want to see what these look like, and what they can do!  
 

Looking forward with anticipation, 

 

John

[Compound2632]

On 28/06/2023 at 16:43, Bernard Lamb said:

I reckon that you are thinking of Masons. They supplied Midland Red paint to the original company and continued to supply it to the LMS and BR. You will find people who insist that the later colours are different but AFAIK the mix never changed. 

 

On 28/06/2023 at 19:42, JaymzHatstand said:

The underlying material will make a big difference to the colour, shade and sheen of the paint too, as will whatever varnish/polish is applied over the top.

 

On 29/06/2023 at 07:16, Barry O said:

BUT  precision Darlington Green is quite dull. Buff it up with car polish and it looks a different colour.

 

This is a case where the unvarnished truth is far from the whole story - varnish matters and almost certainly accounts for the reported perception that the Midland red applied in later LMS and BR days was a different shade. Granted that it was identical paint, the changes in varnishing practice will have led to it being perceived as a different tint. The amount of lining and the size of the painted surface will also have an effect on the perceived colour - a Duchess is a big engine, with minimal lining; compared to No. 158A in full pre-1905 lining, there will be an apparent difference.

 

And as noted above, the varnish argument also applies to models.  

[Barry O]

41 minutes ago, it's-er said:

Ok folks - we’ve had a good session on the colour of the NER versions of the G5!  I’d really like to see some photographs on your model railways, and some comment on how many coaches your G5 models can pull, please.

 

I know my two black versions have been delivered - one LNER and one early BR - but I am volunteering in the Middle East for an extended period, and I want to see what these look like, and what they can do!  
 

Looking forward with anticipation, 

 

John

took mine to the club the other evening. The NER Green one I have pulled 5 Gresley Coaches (the newer Hornby ones) around Chapel en le Frith with no problems. It is balanced well and heavy..

 

Baz

[Compound2632]

I had mine with my rake of four Hornby LMS PIII non-corridor carriages on our club's small test track (Thomas and Percy racing track at exhibitions!) with second radius curves; ran very nicely, no slipping, though as is universal ran more freely down the straight sides than round the curves.

[Porcy Mane]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

(Thomas and Percy racing track at exhibitions!)

 

I do hope Percy showed  the newbie a clean pair of heels.

[RichardT]

On 28/06/2023 at 18:20, Edwardian said:

…This time I've thrown in the Class A. I don't hold this out as by any means the median NER Saxony green, IMHO it tends to the blue end. As I say, I'm generally comfortable with a range of shades.

 

… alongside other interpretations of Saxony green…it is certainly the outlier.

Hmmm.  From today’s Rapido Newsletter (Y7 on the Tanfield Railway):

 

As others have said, it all depends on your personal reference starting point for what’s “right”.  To my eyes the Class A in Edwardian’s photos is way off - not even an outlier - and the Class O is pretty spot on.  But possibly the Tanfield have got it wrong.  I think Dr Tony East put the model railway colour debate to bed years ago in an early issue of “Railway Archive” - no-one can retain colour memory beyond a few minutes, 19thC railway paints were mixed by hand on the job from solid ingredients - yes, supplied by specialist firms but not in pre-mixed form - using vehicles (in the paint sense) whose quality varied from batch to batch, and the age and quantity of varnishing also makes a huge difference. It’s a debate that can never be resolved (although it makes for a good pub conversation!)

 

RichardT

[Bishdurham]

2 hours ago, RichardT said:

Hmmm.  From today’s Rapido Newsletter (Y7 on the Tanfield Railway):

 

As others have said, it all depends on your personal reference starting point for what’s “right”.  To my eyes the Class A in Edwardian’s photos is way off - not even an outlier - and the Class O is pretty spot on.  But possibly the Tanfield have got it wrong.  I think Dr Tony East put the model railway colour debate to bed years ago in an early issue of “Railway Archive” - no-one can retain colour memory beyond a few minutes, 19thC railway paints were mixed by hand on the job from solid ingredients - yes, supplied by specialist firms but not in pre-mixed form - using vehicles (in the paint sense) whose quality varied from batch to batch, and the age and quantity of varnishing also makes a huge difference. It’s a debate that can never be resolved (although it makes for a good pub conversation!)

 

RichardT

There used to be a Gentleman who was myopic and would come into W&H every Saturday and stand over the Precision Paints stands and tell whoever was about that the Pre-Grouping was colour was wrong.  I always assumed that he would had to have been over 80 to have seen the original in use and what with the variations mentioned above and the memory issue he was talking out of his hat.  However, I was never able to discuss the matter over a pint and this, I would think, have made it much more enjoyable.  

[SteamingWales]

Not been seeing much love for the BR Black versions so here is mine on a not so North Eastern shed

 

[Compound2632]

38 minutes ago, SteamingWales said:

Not been seeing much love for the BR Black versions so here is mine on a not so North Eastern shed

 

Looking very smart but there's no 19th century tank engine that doesn't look smart in LNWR livery!

[ovbulleid]

While the discussion on colours is considered of high importance by many, does anyone have any ideas on rolling stock while we wait for Hattons or Hornby to release generic stock? I’ve see these online- http://www.poppyswoodtech.co.uk/4mm.html

Butt none Finished. Are there any producers of NER rolling stock that don’t involve brass? 

[SimonASteel]

11 hours ago, ovbulleid said:

While the discussion on colours is considered of high importance by many, does anyone have any ideas on rolling stock while we wait for Hattons or Hornby to release generic stock? I’ve see these online- http://www.poppyswoodtech.co.uk/4mm.html

Butt none Finished. Are there any producers of NER rolling stock that don’t involve brass? 

Unfortunately there isn't any from what I'm aware of. However, it might be worth advocating TMC for coaching stock. Surely Push pull coaches would be appropriate for the G5 or clerestories? The G5 seems popular and I'm sure coaching stock would sell like hotcakes as a future project.

[Compound2632]

12 hours ago, ovbulleid said:

Are there any producers of NER rolling stock that don’t involve brass? 

 

I have seen the Ratio Midland suburban carriages used to represent NER non-corridor non-clerestoty bogie stock. The Ratio kits depict David Bain's first round-cornered panelled stock for the Midland, being built in 1903 for the Manchester South District services, shortly after he moved from the North Eastern, and were replicated (with the addition of the 4-compt brake third) for the Birmingham District in 1908/9. They have the great advantage of having the deep waist panel that Bain had also been using on the North Eastern. Reference to North Eastern Record Vol. 2 reveals that these carriages were built around 1899-1901 and were 49 ft long, a foot more than the 48 ft of the Midland carriages. Other than that, the main visual difference is the use of 8 ft wheelbase bogies rather than the 10 ft of the Midland carriages. There seem to have been seven diagrams, 50-55 and 63/64, consisting of 8-compartment thirds, 4-compartment brake-thirds, and three or four varieties of 7-compartment composites, with 2, 3, or 4 first class compartments. It might be a bit if a stretch to use these kits to represent non-corridor clerestories, as those were 52 ft long, though I dare say one could get a good long way by cutting and shutting the Ratio sides.

 

The Hattons Genesis 6-wheelers are pretty close to NER 6-wheelers, especially the 5-compartment third and the centre-lavatory composite; they are the right length and have the correct flat ends.

[Bishdurham]

14 hours ago, ovbulleid said:

While the discussion on colours is considered of high importance by many, does anyone have any ideas on rolling stock while we wait for Hattons or Hornby to release generic stock? I’ve see these online- http://www.poppyswoodtech.co.uk/4mm.html

Butt none Finished. Are there any producers of NER rolling stock that don’t involve brass? 

Isinglass have been working on bringing out some NER stock for some time.  Having built a twin and a comp, I can say even with limited model skills they come out quite nicely.

[Flying Pig]

6 minutes ago, Bishdurham said:

Isinglass have been working on bringing out some NER stock for some time.  Having built a twin and a comp, I can say even with limited model skills they come out quite nicely.

 

Interesting.  The website just mentions requests for NER stock - any ideas which diagrams they have in mind?

[JaymzHatstand]

Once you get to the LNER liveried locos, there's plenty of choice as the Gresley/Thompson non-corridor stock has been produced in several liveries over the years, and the vestibule stock is also widely available in several forms. There are also non-brass kits available for a number of diagrams not covered by RTR (which is most of the useful ones)

 

Hopefully some NER vehicles will appear at some stage, as I don't fancy trying to replicate the intricate livery myself! 

 

Cheers

 

J

[D J H]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I have seen the Ratio Midland suburban carriages used to represent NER non-corridor non-clerestoty bogie stock. The Ratio kits depict David Bain's first round-cornered panelled stock for the Midland, being built in 1903 for the Manchester South District services, shortly after he moved from the North Eastern, and were replicated (with the addition of the 4-compt brake third) for the Birmingham District in 1908/9. They have the great advantage of having the deep waist panel that Bain had also been using on the North Eastern. Reference to North Eastern Record Vol. 2 reveals that these carriages were built around 1899-1901 and were 49 ft long, a foot more than the 48 ft of the Midland carriages. Other than that, the main visual difference is the use of 8 ft wheelbase bogies rather than the 10 ft of the Midland carriages. There seem to have been seven diagrams, 50-55 and 63/64, consisting of 8-compartment thirds, 4-compartment brake-thirds, and three or four varieties of 7-compartment composites, with 2, 3, or 4 first class compartments. It might be a bit if a stretch to use these kits to represent non-corridor clerestories, as those were 52 ft long, though I dare say one could get a good long way by cutting and shutting the Ratio sides.

 

The Hattons Genesis 6-wheelers are pretty close to NER 6-wheelers, especially the 5-compartment third and the centre-lavatory composite; they are the right length and have the correct flat ends.

 

 

Not it too sure about the colour matching on the coach sides ...

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, D J H said:

Not it too sure about the colour matching on the coach sides ...

 

Wrong shade of red!

 

I think the principal drawback of the full brake is that it has three rather than four plain panels either side of the double doors; those doors would also, I think, be without droplights.

[drmditch]

As far as I am aware, the NER didn't use the Class O for push-pull workings. That was what they used the BTPs for.

 

I have managed to find a Steve Banks article in Model Rail of November 2005 describing LNER Push-pull operations and coaching stock. I thought I had a copy of British Railway Journal No.32 which has an article by Clive Carter on the same subject. I know I put it somewhere safe but where?

I do have a D&S brass kit for an NER brake-composite driver. This will need some practice of my soldering skills. These were re-used by the LNER in the 1930s.

 

I haven't made a detailed study of No. 2082 yet, having run it in according to instructions.  It runs very nicely on my Code 100 track (and some bumpy track joins) and with my Gaugemaster controllers. I have for the moment put it back into it's box until I am ready for it's project. 2082 was a Sunderland engine for at least part of the timescale in which I am interested, so it may not need re-numbering.

[thetalkinlens]

There are a number of 3D print NER coaches listed here:
http://www.rue-d-etropal.com/3D-printing/passenger-stock-lner/3d_printed_ner-coaches.htm

 

They are available to purchase through Shapeways. This is where I become hesitant! I have heard that the quality of printing from Shapeways can be quite poor and I've not seen any of these from the links above out in the wild so to speak, so have nothing to judge on how good they a might be.