Serco to end Caledonian Sleeper contract early?

[Coryton]

​

You've obviously never paid for a hotel in Edinburgh - your £30 might open the mini-bar for the evening.....

 

Hotel maybe, but unless things have changed in the last few years there's no shortage of reasonably priced B&Bs (unless it's during the Fringe of course).

 

Aberdeen might be another matter.

[jjb1970]

Aberdeen used to be ridiculous for hotel prices, and even the offshore O&G slump only seemed to reduce them to being expensive. That said, there is no shortage of pretty good and reasonably priced restaurants etc.

[truffy]

It is too easy to look at the problems on our passenger railway and think it is only happening here.

It is not, the USA struggles to keep Amtrak running because of costs. Other countries passenger transport is subsidised, or of a poor standard.

I really do not like nationalised industries, but the cost of equipment and the running costs are enormous.

Franchising is obviously not working, if enough people want fast, luxury transport then the bullet has to be bitten.

If nationalisation could only be done without involving politicians. Any and all politicians!

 

It's an odd thing, isn't it? The trains in Switzerland (generally) run on time. I don't consider them too expensive. This may be rated to local economy, but when we looked at travelling from Folkestone to London with the kids, we thought how much? I don't know all this stuff works.

[Coryton]

I wanted to use the sleeper to go to Aberdeen. Doing so I'd be able to spend the evening at home with the family, put the kids to bed then take a train down to Euston, board the sleeper and wake up in Aberdeen. Effectively it'd knock a night off the number of nights spent away to a large degree and avoid an early-o-clock start if I achieved the same thing by taking the early morning flight from LHR. However, when my travel counsellor gave me the quotes it was very hard to either justify not just going up the previous evening and staying overnight or taking the early flight. Which was a shame as I'd have liked to use the sleeper.

 

I used to use the sleeper for work to go down to London - once you'd factored in a taxi to the airport and travel from the airport at the London end a first class ticket wasn't too different and it was much more pleasant than getting up for an early flight. (And was the only time we were allowed to travel first class).

 

I did enjoy being woken up at a fairly sensible time with a newspaper, pot of tea and cooked breakfast while my colleagues going to the same meeting had been up for several hours to fly down. It is a very civilised way to travel, especially with dinner in the lounge car.

 

Then what used to be the "walk-up" first class fare became a "prices from" fare and it seems it's got even more expensive.

 

I wonder who is paying the prices now?

 

(We have travel counsellors now?)

[Bob Reid]

Hotel maybe, but unless things have changed in the last few years there's no shortage of reasonably priced B&Bs (unless it's during the Fringe of course).

 

Aberdeen might be another matter.

 

Aberdeen certainly still is another matter (despite the slump)...

 

​Cheap B&B's - yes, you can get in a doss house for even less! My point was, factor in the flights, taxis, other rail services at both ends to go from centre to centre and the cost of the hotel and the cheap £30 flight soon becomes rather more than you expected!  

[jjb1970]

(We have travel counsellors now?)

One of the things that makes travel half bearable for me is that there is a splendid lady in Manchester who is an absolute star and looks after me. I've no idea how much she's paid, but anything I asked is done quickly and efficiently and with good humour, whatever she is paid she deserves it.

[black and decker boy]

.

 

The choice of Class 92 and 73 was lets say poor, the Class 90s were and are widely suitable for the service generally reliable and known by crews.

Taking long stored Class 92s then running them through works was always going to be risky, the Class 73s on the Highland portions in multiples was even more a bizarre choice - I think the choice of GB as traction supplier was also poor as I demanded a complete traction change.

 

Maybe DB didn't offer or even bid for the work in the first place, the Class 67s had their problems and restrictions granted but again were a known beast to crews.

 

The new MK5 stock is going to really kick the operation into the 21st centenary and I'm looking forward to using the vehicles next year.

 

Those mk5s are the reason for the use of 92s. The ETH supply they need in a full rake exceeds every class of AC loco with the sole exception of class 92.

 

As for the 73/9s, they seem to be settling down now that Wabtec Brush have fixed the design flaws

[Coryton]

​Cheap B&B's - yes, you can get in a doss house for even less! My point was, factor in the flights, taxis, other rail services at both ends to go from centre to centre and the cost of the hotel and the cheap £30 flight soon becomes rather more than you expected!  

 

Yes I take your point - but it seems that sleeper prices have gone beyond the point where they are cost-effective even taking all that into consideration.

 

(And there are some very nice but inexpensive B&Bs in Edinburgh).

Those mk5s are the reason for the use of 92s. The ETH supply they need in a full rake exceeds every class of AC loco with the sole exception of class 92.

 

Presumably because they were designed to handle the Nightstar stock?

[rodent279]

Read the other thread.

I asked a similar question and received an enlightening response.

Bernard

Can you provide a link to the other thread please?

[Bob Reid]

Years ago I was sent to a few Mk3 Sleeper Implementation project meetings and even with the best ETH loco's the railway had they were struggling to get the "hotel" power needs down to something near what the loco's could cope with (depending of course on the final train length) and the Nightstar Stock was even worse. Despite the 35+ years improvements in technology, it's still a fine balance between what the designers would like and what the engineers can provide that will reliably work.    

[The Stationmaster]

Years ago I was sent to a few Mk3 Sleeper Implementation project meetings and even with the best ETH loco's the railway had they were struggling to get the "hotel" power needs down to something near what the loco's could cope with (depending of course on the final train length) and the Nightstar Stock was even worse. Despite the 35+ years improvements in technology, it's still a fine balance between what the designers would like and what the engineers can provide that will reliably work.    

 

And it remained an open question whether or not it would work on the 'Nightstar' stock with a full length formation on UK dc routes although it was generally considered to be likely to be ok on 25kv ac overhead in Britain.

[scouser]

There are several Premier Inn hotels in Edinburgh, prices between £65 and £100. Bar prices aren't bad either!

I never use a mini bar if there is a big one close.....

[caradoc]

From what I recall Scotrail used a lot of cross resource from the domestic side to crew the sleeper services which kept costs as low as you could expect.

Since Serco have taken over a lot of that cross resource has been removed which brings in risk, if say a Stirling Guard went sick at late notice they could simply pull another guard in that's largely been removed now.

 

The choice of Class 92 and 73 was lets say poor, the Class 90s were and are widely suitable for the service generally reliable and known by crews.

Taking long stored Class 92s then running them through works was always going to be risky, the Class 73s on the Highland portions in multiples was even more a bizarre choice - I think the choice of GB as traction supplier was also poor as I demanded a complete traction change.

 

Maybe DB didn't offer or even bid for the work in the first place, the Class 67s had their problems and restrictions granted but again were a known beast to crews.

 

The new MK5 stock is going to really kick the operation into the 21st centenary and I'm looking forward to using the vehicles next year.

However, the choice of using Dellner couplers and again fitting traction with another point of failure isn't a good idea, especially in the weather the sleeper encounters.

 

Countries who have heavy snow most of the year use screw couplings, why does CS/GB/CAF think they wont experience issues?

 

I think taking the Sleeper from the main Scotrail operation was flawed, this 'news' is a warm up for Scottish Government that unless Serco can increase their profit once the new vehicles arrive they'll want to terminate their contract or at least get more money at the first break point.

 

I can see Serco walking away, as they contractually can in 2022 with Scottish Government going begging to Scotrail to take the operation back on with a nice big golden thank you of course.

 

Taking away political and commercial considerations, separating the Sleepers from the Scotrail franchise was a railway operator's nightmare; Working as I did in Network Rail Scotland Route Control, co-located with Scotrail Control, any issues in Scotland were usually resolved quickly through face-to-face contact, discussion and agreement. Conversely, we saw the difficulties Scotrail had when problems arose with the Sleepers south of the Border, and they had to deal over the phone with other Routes for whom the Sleepers were very much a minority operation. Now, the day-to-day running of the Sleepers is controlled remotely, all contact has to be by phone, and Serco do not have the resources of Scotrail to fall back on when things go wrong.

 

Personally, I was always surprised that the entire Caledonian Sleeper operation went to Scotrail at all on privatisation; A joint venture with the WCML operator would have seemed more logical, given that south of Carlisle the Sleepers were the only Scotrail services running over several hundred miles of route.

[Coryton]

Taking away political and commercial considerations, separating the Sleepers from the Scotrail franchise was a railway operator's nightmare; Working as I did in Network Rail Scotland Route Control, co-located with Scotrail Control, any issues in Scotland were usually resolved quickly through face-to-face contact, discussion and agreement. Conversely, we saw the difficulties Scotrail had when problems arose with the Sleepers south of the Border, and they had to deal over the phone with other Routes for whom the Sleepers were very much a minority operation. Now, the day-to-day running of the Sleepers is controlled remotely, all contact has to be by phone, and Serco do not have the resources of Scotrail to fall back on when things go wrong.

 

Personally, I was always surprised that the entire Caledonian Sleeper operation went to Scotrail at all on privatisation; A joint venture with the WCML operator would have seemed more logical, given that south of Carlisle the Sleepers were the only Scotrail services running over several hundred miles of route.

 

Separating the sleepers into a separate franchise seemed a strange move to me. The only justification I could see is that by separating it from Scotrail it's easy to point to an exact figure for the costs of subsidising the sleeper - even if it's still not the full story and in any case the cost might be lower if run as part of Scotrail.

 

As for why it went to Scotrail originally, the logic was presumably that it is far more to Scotland's benefit than England. It's certainly marketed very much as a Scottish thing.

 

When the Highlander is running late and terminates in Edinburgh, I wonder if they now have to pay Scotrail when passengers are turfed out onto day trains. (I hope that's what still happens, and that they haven't decided it's cheaper to put them on a bus...)

[jjb1970]

I think that the fundamental issue for the sleeper services is that wherever they sit they will need significant financial support to be viable and I suspect that if rolled into a large franchise such as the WCML one they would end up in the classic position of the bit at the back that doesn't matter that much and as such attract the least investment, management attention etc. So in some ways a standalone franchise makes sense as it means whoever is in charge basically has the job of just making sure the sleeper operations work and their attention won't wander off to bigger, more lucrative things. Probably more accountability too. The downside obviously is that it will introduce additional complications and costs when things don't go as well as planned. Ultimately I think sleeper trains have to be looked at as a either a subsidised service maintained for reasons other than profit (in which case certainly there are fair grounds for tax payers to ask why they should pay to keep them going, whether or not I agree doesn't alter the fact that it's a fair question) or they can withdraw into being a luxury indulgence for the very wealthy.

[Coryton]

I think that the fundamental issue for the sleeper services is that wherever they sit they will need significant financial support to be viable and I suspect that if rolled into a large franchise such as the WCML one they would end up in the classic position of the bit at the back that doesn't matter that much and as such attract the least investment, management attention etc. So in some ways a standalone franchise makes sense as it means whoever is in charge basically has the job of just making sure the sleeper operations work and their attention won't wander off to bigger, more lucrative things. Probably more accountability too. The downside obviously is that it will introduce additional complications and costs when things don't go as well as planned. Ultimately I think sleeper trains have to be looked at as a either a subsidised service maintained for reasons other than profit (in which case certainly there are fair grounds for tax payers to ask why they should pay to keep them going, whether or not I agree doesn't alter the fact that it's a fair question) or they can withdraw into being a luxury indulgence for the very wealthy.

 

I hadn't thought of it in that way, though as a regular user I didn't get the impression that Scotrail was neglecting them and from what I've heard the quality of the sleepers went downhill once Serco took over. 

 

To some extent you probably don't need a separate organisation to achieve management focus, just the appropriate organisational structure. However, insisting on that in the ITT might be a micromanaging step too far. As for investment, I would imagine that depends more on what the Scottish government is prepared to pay for than decisions by the operator.

[dibber25]

And it remained an open question whether or not it would work on the 'Nightstar' stock with a full length formation on UK dc routes although it was generally considered to be likely to be ok on 25kv ac overhead in Britain.

 

In Canada, the ex-Nightstar stock (used on VIA 14/15 the 'Ocean' Montreal-Halifax) has at least two 3,000hp locos, one of which does little or nothing other than supply the rolling stock power. The same is true of the indigenous HEP1 stock used on VIA 1/2 'The Canadian', so I presume they don't find it unusual to have one loco to haul the train and another to power the coaches. (CJL)

[rodent279]

I've always wondered why they haven't been rolled up into a single franchise with the GW sleepers.

[MRDBLUE17]

If you ask anyone not interested in Railways up here what they think of the current Scotrail franchise (I mean the majority of those commuting on it) giving it to Abelio has been a disaster. There are Facebook groups set up it’s on local town pages etc. Short formed trains due to the lease being up on the busiest routes is impacting on revenue and creating even more frustration. Electrification and the new trains will be positive but the cost of the late arrival might be too much. We will need to wait and see.

 

Mark

[JohnR]

I think anyone who thinks that any franchisee in the UK at the moment isnt looking carefully at their financial position and considering all options - regardless of what they say in public - are either deluded or lying. Many franchises were bid for on the basis of continual growth in passenger numbers. They've stalled almost everywhere. Other issues have also had an impact on various operations. Some TOCs are better served than others, either with a direct award or management contract on more favourable terms. 

 

But lets remember, these operators are businesses. They are not running trains for fun. They are looking to make profits (whether you agree with that or not). If they dont make profits - or make lower profits than they consider viable - then they WILL hand back the keys. 

[JohnR]

If you ask anyone not interested in Railways up here what they think of the current Scotrail franchise (I mean the majority of those commuting on it) giving it to Abelio has been a disaster. There are Facebook groups set up it’s on local town pages etc. Short formed trains due to the lease being up on the busiest routes is impacting on revenue and creating even more frustration. Electrification and the new trains will be positive but the cost of the late arrival might be too much. We will need to wait and see.

 

Mark

 

Indeed. I'm not questioning the official customer satisfaction figures, but there seems to be a lot of low level grumbling and sometimes anger amongst passengers that I've not experienced before. The only people who seem to be denying it are doing so for political reasons. 

[rockershovel]

The fundamental problem with any sort of franchise operation has just been clearly demonstrated. Extensive curtailments and outright cancellations on the strength of a bad weather forecast, which in the event wasn’t borne out by events (at least initially). Their contracts indicated that this was the least worst option financially; there was no obligation to run a service; and the costs of lost time and lost work fell elsewhere.

[rockershovel]

Indeed. I'm not questioning the official customer satisfaction figures, but there seems to be a lot of low level grumbling and sometimes anger amongst passengers that I've not experienced before. The only people who seem to be denying it are doing so for political reasons.

 

See my earlier comments about ECML commuter services. The dissatisfaction and discontent arising from the separation of HST and EMU services (which were previously undifferentiated ) is beyond anything that can be placated by soft words from Westminster.

 

Long ago, when I was doing British Constitution as an O Level, I was told that “the British system of governance depends upon the concept that government governs with the consent of the governed”. I can’t avoid the feeling that there is an increasingly widespread view that such consent can no longer regarded as given.

[rodent279]

See my earlier comments about ECML commuter services. The dissatisfaction and discontent arising from the separation of HST and EMU services (which were previously undifferentiated ) is beyond anything that can be placated by soft words from Westminster.

 

Long ago, when I was doing British Constitution as an O Level, I was told that “the British system of governance depends upon the concept that government governs with the consent of the governed”. I can’t avoid the feeling that there is an increasingly widespread view that such consent can no longer regarded as given.

Indeed.

[Revolution Mike]

I think anyone who thinks that any franchisee in the UK at the moment isnt looking carefully at their financial position and considering all options - regardless of what they say in public - are either deluded or lying. Many franchises were bid for on the basis of continual growth in passenger numbers. They've stalled almost everywhere. Other issues have also had an impact on various operations. Some TOCs are better served than others, either with a direct award or management contract on more favourable terms. 

 

But lets remember, these operators are businesses. They are not running trains for fun. They are looking to make profits (whether you agree with that or not). If they dont make profits - or make lower profits than they consider viable - then they WILL hand back the keys. 

 

I completely agree with that statement, though the obvious flaw from a taxpayer or consumer/user perspective is why they should be allowed to walk away!

 

Back to the sleeper costs, I had to make the decision a few weeks ago about using Virgin + hotel, fly + hotel or fly and miss start, or sleeper - previously the sleeper would have been the easy winner (plus it would placate Mrs Red Death as she would see me for a few hours).  It was still a close run thing though the sleeper was a bit more expensive but considerably more convenient.