Wreckage of USS Lexington Located in Coral Sea

[kevinlms]

My Dad was in the in the RNZAF during the Pacific War and he said that the Americans would shoot at anything that moved whether friend or foe so I'm not surprised they had to take the red dot insignia off their aircraft.  Not big on target identification were the Americans  

Yep, the 2nd Amendment gives them the right to bear arms, but no responsibility. Nothing changes.

[DougN]

It's fantastic that it has been found. I have always had a fascination with these types of stories. I suspect the ship might be in Australian waters as it is 800kms off the Queensland coast... well if not protected by the RAN.

 

It probably is a war grave but as the time has moved on from the WWII the number of direct descendent is reducing at a accelerating rate the respect vs monetary gain is starting to swing to the latter rather than the former.

Edited March 7, 2018 by DougN

[Big James]

Several Royal Navy ships from that era have disappeared and it won’t b long before HMS prince of Wales & HMS repulse follows. If the Lexington is in Australian waters then she will be safe and as well looked after as a wreck can be.

 

Big james

[DougN]

I can't remember which HMAS ship it was but one that went down in Indonesia in relatively shallow depths has all but disappeared as the steel has been recycled... and I know it was a war grave. Disappointing for the descendent and also the historians of the future, I recall something about the Aussie government got particularly upset at the Indonesian government about the desecration of the war grave.

[jwealleans]

The Sydney, wasn't it?

 

Edit - No, HMAS Perth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Perth_(D29)

Edited March 7, 2018 by jwealleans

[jjb1970]

If Indonesia isn't overly concerned about its own heritage (including the deceased) they're unlikely to be overlay concerned about anybody else's. I like Indonesia and have extended family there but some of their societal attitudes are a bit messed up, particularly with respect to the genocide of the 1960's when Suharto took power. I think the majority of Indonesian's endorse the genocide of that time as a perfectly reasonable action.

[DougN]

Well having worked in east new Britain Provence and Rabaul to be exact it tends to be a islander pacific view that life is cheap... particularly in PNG so this could be similar to that in Indonesia.

 

When I was living in Kokopo there was reminders of the WWII battles which was tanks off to the side of the road, aircraft bits and all sorts which you could just come across on a day to day basis. I found it a bit curious as they were never cleaned up and placed in the small but interesting museum. It was just not important to the living.

[DavidB-AU]

It's fantastic that it has been found. I have always had a fascination with these types of stories. I suspect the ship might be in Australian waters as it is 800kms off the Queensland coast... well if not protected by the RAN.

It's slightly closer to Mellish Reef (Australia) than Sudest Island (Papua New Guinea) but it is in international waters.

 

Cheers

David

[Bon Accord]

Well having worked in east new Britain Provence and Rabaul to be exact it tends to be a islander pacific view that life is cheap... particularly in PNG so this could be similar to that in Indonesia.

 

When I was living in Kokopo there was reminders of the WWII battles which was tanks off to the side of the road, aircraft bits and all sorts which you could just come across on a day to day basis. I found it a bit curious as they were never cleaned up and placed in the small but interesting museum. It was just not important to the living.

 

Not forgetting that to many Asians and Pacific Islanders WW2 was a wholly destructive experience where their countries and their futures were fought over by foreign colonial powers from West and East - they didn't want any of them there never mind the lesser of two evils or so-called benevolent colonialism (which is the traditional conceited British viewpoint). To me it's wholly understandable they just want to forget the whole episode and look to the future - a lot of Western countries could do with taking note.

[Georgeconna]

However much that Devastator is worth, I doubt it'd come anywhere near what it'd cost to recover from that depth if you wanted to avoid destroying the thing while bringing it up. Personally I think the ship and all that went down with it should be allowed to rest in peace.

 

Good point. However there are none in existance so if they get one it will be priceless. tis a long way down for sure for recovery but sure are we great at overcoming obstacles like this.

 

Like you say say there a re other good reasons to leave it there.

[Big James]

Didn’t they raise a German bomber of the Godwin sands a few years ago. I know the devastater is a lot deeper but if it’s unique someone will find a way to bring her up. Look at the Mary rose she was probably a lot more fragile and in an extremely busy shilling lane but it was done. But like the titanic the Lexington should be left in peace.

 

Big james

Didn’t they raise a German bomber of the Godwin sands a few years ago. I know the devastater is a lot deeper but if it’s unique someone will find a way to bring her up. Look at the Mary rose she was probably a lot more fragile and in an extremely busy shilling lane but it was done. But like the titanic the Lexington should be left in peace.

 

Big james

[brianusa]

Paul Allen, he of endless wealth, is behind this expedition and as he's big on WW2 aircraft there's no better person to bank on to raise this plane, if possible.

 

Brian.

[PhilJ W]

Theres also some Fairy Fulmars that rolled off of the Ark Royal as she sank lying at the bottom of the Med. They were discovered a few years ago laying some distance from the wreck. I don't recall any mention of a recovery attempt, probably because they would most likely disintegrate being of largly wood and canvas construction.

[royaloak]

Paul Allen, he of endless wealth, is behind this expedition and as he's big on WW2 aircraft there's no better person to bank on to raise this plane, if possible.

 

Brian.

Would it be fair to assume he isnt just doing this for fun?

 

Maybe he could bring a couple of aircraft up, one to 'restore' and one to remain as is as a monument to the ship and those who lost their lives.

[DougN]

Not forgetting that to many Asians and Pacific Islanders WW2 was a wholly destructive experience where their countries and their futures were fought over by foreign colonial powers from West and East - they didn't want any of them there never mind the lesser of two evils or so-called benevolent colonialism (which is the traditional conceited British viewpoint). To me it's wholly understandable they just want to forget the whole episode and look to the future - a lot of Western countries could do with taking note.

 Well I can not say for areas other than PNG but the areas that I managed to travel around the reminder was there in battlefeilds and the memories of those still alive. I will challange any one to say that PNG doesn't appreciate the relationship with Australia. It is one of our biggest Aid recipients but the shared history (PNG was a territory from about 1919 through to 1975 of Australia) The respect is there from the locals... I was there building Schools via AusAID in the reconstruction of Rabaul post the volcanic eruptions of 1994. The locals were appreciative of the new schools, roads, and infrastructure. The history of defence during the WWII period is a raw reminder. Kokoda, Milne bay, Lae, Popendetta, Rabaul, Bougainville.... all have been major battle zones and are now supported and  the history lives on. IF not the people who lived through it but also the tanks, bombs, wreckage that can be found. 

 

I would also suggest it is one of the most beautiful locations in the world along with one of the most lawless. It would have to be one of the most interesting places to visit but unfortunately this has yet to really take off as it is hard to move around the country with limited accommodation and flights. Air Nugini was known when I was there as AusAID AIR... I think it was supported to maintain the transport links! If you have the opportunity to go there take it.... it is unforgettable! Just remember "talk talk lik lik Pisgeon"

[DavidB-AU]

Would it be fair to assume he isnt just doing this for fun?

 

Maybe he could bring a couple of aircraft up, one to 'restore' and one to remain as is as a monument to the ship and those who lost their lives.

 

I doubt it as it is a war grave.

 

Cheers

David

[PatB]

If anyone really wants a Devastator it would be almost certainly cheaper and easier to get a set of drawings and a suitable engine and build one from scratch.

[Ozexpatriate]

... the war against Japan was primarily a war between the US, China and Japan with British and Commonwealth support 

Particularly so after the spectacular string of British and Commonwealth catastrophes, including, but not limited to, the loss of HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse (December 1941), the fall of Hong Kong (December 1941) the the retreat from Malaya (December 1941), the capitulation of Singapore (February 1942), the bombing of Darwin (February 1942), IJN Operation C, which included the bombing of Colombo and Trincomalee and resulted in the loss of HMS Hermes, HMS Cornwall, HMS Dorsetshire, HMAS Vampire, HMS Tenedos, and HMS Hollyhock (April 1942).

 

The battle of the Coral Sea (May 1942) was a crucial turning point in terms of impeding Japanese naval operations in the theatre and (except for the ANZAC Squadron) was pretty much an all-American affair on the Allied side. Midway (June 1942) is usually given credit as 'the' turning point in the Pacific war, but the Coral Sea is seen by Australians as just as significant in that it prevented an invasion of Port Moresby - ultimately permitting the Australian forces there to stop a Japanese overland advance from the north in mid-to-late 1942 on the Kokoda Track.

 

British naval power in terms of the Eastern Fleet was annihilated, retreating to the Maldives with an operational base in Kenya of all places. It remained largely absent east of India until much later in the war, but did prevent Japan from installing a submarine base on Vichy French Madagascar by capturing the island in Operation Ironclad in May 1942. (EDIT - thanks OhMisterPorter)

 

Much later, the British Pacific Fleet participated in the final naval blockade of Japan as Task Force 37 which joined USN Task Force 38 in attacks on the Japanese mainland. Shortly before Task Force 37 arrived, Task Force 38 completed a very strategic and not very well known assignment - the sinking of railway car ferries from Hokkaido to Honshu in July 1945. This severed coal supplies to the industrial centers on Honshu. Largely overshadowed by what would happen with Tinian-based B29s in August, Japan was effectively doomed at that point. 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Ozexpatriate

[Ozexpatriate]

Would it be fair to assume he isnt just doing this for fun?

Paul Allen's post Microsoft investments include the Seattle Seahawks NFL team and the Portland Trailblazers NBA team. I suspect this sort of thing is really more about things he finds interesting, diverting and his legacy, so, yes pretty much for fun I expect.

 

He helped the RN retrieve the bell from HMS Hood too. No profiteering motives there.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Ozexpatriate

[autocoach]

Yep, the 2nd Amendment gives them the right to bear arms, but no responsibility. Nothing changes.

We have repeatedly campaigned for the interpretation that the 2nd amendment right applies only to "bears" that wear sleeveless leather vests.

Edited March 8, 2018 by autocoach

[jjb1970]

Particularly so after the spectacular string of British and Commonwealth catastrophes, including, but not limited to, the loss of HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse (December 1941), the fall of Hong Kong (December 1941) the the retreat from Malaya (December 1941), the capitulation of Singapore (February 1942), the bombing of Darwin (February 1942), IJN Operation C, which included the bombing of Colombo and Trincomalee and resulted in the loss of HMS Hermes, HMS Cornwall, HMS Dorsetshire, HMAS Vampire, HMS Tenedos, and HMS Hollyhock (April 1942).

 

The battle of the Coral Sea (May 1942) was a crucial turning point in terms of impeding Japanese naval operations in the theatre and (except for the ANZAC Squadron) was pretty much an all-American affair on the Allied side. Midway (June 1942) is usually given credit as 'the' turning point in the Pacific war, but the Coral Sea is seen by Australians as just as significant in that it prevented an invasion of Port Moresby - ultimately permitting the Australian forces there to stop a Japanese overland advance from the north in mid-to-late 1942 on the Kokoda Track.

 

British naval power in terms of the Eastern Fleet was annihilated, retreating to the Maldives with an operational base in Kenya of all places. It remained largely absent east of India until much later in the war, but did prevent Japan from installing a submarine base on Vichy French Madagascar by capturing the island in Operation Ironclad in May 1945.

 

Much later, the British Pacific Fleet participated in the final naval blockade of Japan as Task Force 37 which joined USN Task Force 38 in attacks on the Japanese mainland. Shortly before Task Force 37 arrived, Task Force 38 completed a very strategic and not very well known assignment - the sinking of railway car ferries from Hokkaido to Honshu in July 1945. This severed coal supplies to the industrial centers on Honshu. Largely overshadowed by what would happen with Tinian-based B29s in August, Japan was effectively doomed at that point.

I think both the British Commonwealth and USA grossly under estimated Japan in 1941. The Imperial Japanese Navy had the finest carrier air arm in the world in 1941 and their navy was superbly equipped and trained (although their operational doctrine based on conventional ideas of major surface actions would later be found severely wanting). Their army had been fighting a vicious war in China since 1937 (and fighting sporadically in China for quite a few years before that) as well as their border wars with the USSR and their air force was well practised. In 1941 it wasn't so much that the Japanese attack into SE Asia was unexpected, but more that it massively exceeded what their opponents considered them to be capable of. This was in stark contrast to the Soviet's who had a healthy respect for the fighting capability of Japan and maintained a very strong force in the East until their intelligence could convince Stalin that Japan would not attack. For obvious reasons a story grew up that Japan's attack was an unprovoked attack out of the blue (ignoring the steadily escalating diplomatic and economic pressure on them, which itself had been provoked by Japan's actions in China) yet Allied commanders were expecting war and McArthur for example in the Philippines was looking forward to it and fully expected to defeat them. The realisation that they were woefully unprepared was true but also something of a post facto rationalisation as nobody really (well, except the Japanese) thought they could knock out the US Pacific fleet and launch attacks on Thailand, Malaya and the Philippines concurrently and with their war in China still dragging on.

 

I always think WW2 is a misnomer. WW2 was really two wars overlapping in time. Germany and Japan may have been nominal allies and shared common enemies but there was very little true co-operation and neither country saw the other as being much more than a means to divide their enemies resources. The European and Asian wars were fought for different reasons, had different causal factors and there was remarkably little mutual influence between the two co-exiting wars beyond the demands on the Allies to balance resources. The war between Japan and China is almost seen as a sideshow by most British, Commonwealth and American people yet it was a truly horrific war that killed many millions. Chinese losses dwarfed those of the Western allies combined total, were massively higher than those of Germany and weren't that far from those of the USSR. Yet few outside parts of Asia have paid much attention to that war despite it still influencing perception and relations in China and Japan. Although I think we tend to lose sight of the effects on people in SE Asia too, the brutality of the Japanese to PoW's is well known but they were similarly brutal to the local populations of their occupied territories such as what is now Indonesia. Some older members of my wife's family remembered the Japanese occupation and although they were no fans of the Dutch they hated Japan with a passion. All very sad. I don't criticise people for being unable to let go of hate because unless people have gone through that experience they have no right to criticise, but I do think it is very unhealthy, especially when it crosses generations and when it tends to be a selective process.

[Kickstart]

If anyone really wants a Devastator it would be almost certainly cheaper and easier to get a set of drawings and a suitable engine and build one from scratch.

Probably true, but whether it would be regarded as a new aircraft might cause an issue with flying it.

 

Katy

[PatB]

Probably true, but whether it would be regarded as a new aircraft might cause an issue with flying it.

 

Katy

 

Whilst I'm a bit out of date on such things, the US, at least, has some quite liberal regs on what you can build and fly for private purposes. Whether a new build Devastator would fit (or could be shoehorned) into any of the categories available I don't know, but I'd certainly not rule it out.

[Ohmisterporter]

British naval power in terms of the Eastern Fleet was annihilated, retreating to the Maldives with an operational base in Kenya of all places. It remained largely absent east of India until much later in the war, but did prevent Japan from installing a submarine base on Vichy French Madagascar by capturing the island in Operation Ironclad in May 1945.

 

 

 

A small typo there Oz; the occupation of Madagascar took place in 1942. From a naval history point of view it was interesting for the torpedoing of the old battleship Ramilles and an oil tanker by a Japanese midget submarine. Both were later repaired but the sub was lost and its two man crew made it ashore but were later killed in a gun fight with royal marines. It is easy to let hatred of our enemies cloud the fact that there were brave men on all sides in that conflict.

[62613]

I think both the British Commonwealth and USA grossly under estimated Japan in 1941. The Imperial Japanese Navy had the finest carrier air arm in the world in 1941 and their navy was superbly equipped and trained (although their operational doctrine based on conventional ideas of major surface actions would later be found severely wanting). Their army had been fighting a vicious war in China since 1937 (and fighting sporadically in China for quite a few years before that) as well as their border wars with the USSR and their air force was well practised. In 1941 it wasn't so much that the Japanese attack into SE Asia was unexpected, but more that it massively exceeded what their opponents considered them to be capable of. This was in stark contrast to the Soviet's who had a healthy respect for the fighting capability of Japan and maintained a very strong force in the East until their intelligence could convince Stalin that Japan would not attack. For obvious reasons a story grew up that Japan's attack was an unprovoked attack out of the blue (ignoring the steadily escalating diplomatic and economic pressure on them, which itself had been provoked by Japan's actions in China) yet Allied commanders were expecting war and McArthur for example in the Philippines was looking forward to it and fully expected to defeat them. The realisation that they were woefully unprepared was true but also something of a post facto rationalisation as nobody really (well, except the Japanese) thought they could knock out the US Pacific fleet and launch attacks on Thailand, Malaya and the Philippines concurrently and with their war in China still dragging on.

 

I always think WW2 is a misnomer. WW2 was really two wars overlapping in time. Germany and Japan may have been nominal allies and shared common enemies but there was very little true co-operation and neither country saw the other as being much more than a means to divide their enemies resources. The European and Asian wars were fought for different reasons, had different causal factors and there was remarkably little mutual influence between the two co-exiting wars beyond the demands on the Allies to balance resources. The war between Japan and China is almost seen as a sideshow by most British, Commonwealth and American people yet it was a truly horrific war that killed many millions. Chinese losses dwarfed those of the Western allies combined total, were massively higher than those of Germany and weren't that far from those of the USSR. Yet few outside parts of Asia have paid much attention to that war despite it still influencing perception and relations in China and Japan. Although I think we tend to lose sight of the effects on people in SE Asia too, the brutality of the Japanese to PoW's is well known but they were similarly brutal to the local populations of their occupied territories such as what is now Indonesia. Some older members of my wife's family remembered the Japanese occupation and although they were no fans of the Dutch they hated Japan with a passion. All very sad. I don't criticise people for being unable to let go of hate because unless people have gone through that experience they have no right to criticise, but I do think it is very unhealthy, especially when it crosses generations and when it tends to be a selective process.

The Japanese seemed to have a philosophy that just sinking enemy ships was enough. After the first Pearl harbor wave, the whole US naval setup on Hawaii was at their mercy. Why they didn't bomb the navy tank farm, which contained all the local fuel for their fleet, must remain one of the greatest 'what ifs' of WW2.

 

I thought part of the reason they struck south was because they'd had a border skirmish with the USSR in the late 30s, which had convinced them not to go that way