GNR ground signals

[ColHut]

I am looking to add some to my layout, possibly updated with LNER enamelled discs.

 

I am confused by Vanns description of how they operate. The original ground signals have faces front and back and a lamp inside. It is described as rotating 90degrees to show different faces. That is not possible given the item pictured p.52 of An Illustrated History of GNR Signalling. Was it that the lamp only rotated on a pedastal? And when the LNER modified them with enamel discs, did they mount the discs to the rotating plate and fix the lamp so it fid not move?

 

regards

[Stephen Freeman]

I am looking to add some to my layout, possibly updated with LNER enamelled discs.

 

I am confused by Vanns description of how they operate. The original ground signals have faces front and back and a lamp inside. It is described as rotating 90degrees to show different faces. That is not possible given the item pictured p.52 of An Illustrated History of GNR Signalling. Was it that the lamp only rotated on a pedastal? And when the LNER modified them with enamel discs, did they mount the discs to the rotating plate and fix the lamp so it fid not move?

 

regards

The MSE kit covers both original GNR and modified LNER versions. Everything rotates on the spindle in both variants it's just that the discs are different plus the LNER version has the extra side disc. The kit instructions are quite clear I think.

[ColHut]

Thanks Stphen,

 

My chalenge is that the pictures in Vann's book showing 3 views of the signal show plates only at the front and back but not any at 90 degrees.

 

I suppose a red plate (and red light at night) would show when on, and when off the white light at light or no face showing in daylight. I think I just expected a facing plate for off as well as on in GNR days.

 

BTW That is indeed the kit I am aiming to cut my teeth on.

 

regards

Edited March 24, 2018 by ColHut

[brossard]

A little late I know, but this is the most relevant thread I have found.

 

I want to install LNER (GNR?) signals on my layout.  I bought 5 of these from a member of this parish and I believe them to be from Wizard (ex MSE?):

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/mckenzie-holland-rotating-head-ground-signals-gs03/

 

From my reading, these indicate the route ahead.  The red disc facing the driver means the secondary route is selected, disc side on to the driver means the primary route is selected.

 

Are these signals only used at turnouts that are controlled from the signal box?  I would imagine that hand operated turnouts in goods yards wouldn't need them.

 

I have two catch points (or trap points, I keep forgetting), would these require ground signals?

 

 

Astonishingly of the hundreds of pics I have taken, I haven't got a clear picture of the catch points.  They can be seen in this pic protecting the entry turnout.  One is in the upper middle of the picture and the other is to the right just at the exit from the slip.  These actually work and are interlocked with the entry turnout, much to the chagrin of many who don't pay attention to the set route.  I can imagine that a ground signal at the locations would be useful.  The catch points are signal box controlled.

 

Pictures I've seen show the signal on the primary route side of the turnout, is this always the case?

 

Anyone got the Wizard signals working?  I'm thinking I can link them to the operating wire of Tortoises.

 

John

[RailWest]

>>>>The red disc facing the driver means the secondary route is selected, disc side on to the driver means the primary route is selected...

 

That makes them sound like non-independent 'point indicators' worked directly off the points and which merely show the position of the point rather than act as a stop/go signal.

 

Independent shunt signals worked by their own levers in the signal-box would indicate either 'stop' or 'route is set', regardless of which route if they served more than one.

[brossard]

I'm certainly no expert Chris and I do want to get them as right as I can.  I think I'm looking for them to be non-independent point indicators and worked directly off the turnout position.  I believe I can do that, as I said, by linking to the point motors.

 

John

[RailWest]

1 minute ago, brossard said:

I'm certainly no expert Chris and I do want to get them as right as I can.  I think I'm looking for them to be non-independent point indicators and worked directly off the turnout position.  I believe I can do that, as I said, by linking to the point motors.

 

John

I don't know enough about the GNR to know whether or not the McK&H signals are the correct type for 'point indicators'.

 

I've struggled to spot the 2nd trap-point to which you refer. In the absence of a track-plan, am I correct to assume that the track immediately to the left of the platform in the right foreground is a passenger line? If so, then there needs to be a trap at the exit from the siding which passes in front of the water-tower. And what is the status of the line on the extreme right please?

 

[brossard]

2 minutes ago, RailWest said:

I don't know enough about the GNR to know whether or not the McK&H signals are the correct type for 'point indicators'.

 

I've struggled to spot the 2nd trap-point to which you refer. In the absence of a track-plan, am I correct to assume that the track immediately to the left of the platform in the right foreground is a passenger line? If so, then there needs to be a trap at the exit from the siding which passes in front of the water-tower. And what is the status of the line on the extreme right please?

 

 

I am the same, the signals I have look good but I don't know if they are right either.  Perhaps someone will come along that can shed light on that.

 

Yes, the line adjacent the platform is for passenger traffic.  There is a trap point at the far end of the slip just as you say.  My bad for neglecting to photograph the trap points with more clarity.

 

I took a couple of pics:

 

 

This shows the double slip on the right with the trap point at the exit.  The depression at the top is for the water tower.

 

Apologies for the poor quality.  The boards are still dismantled following a show a couple of weeks ago.

 

Here is the signal:

 

 

 

 

The line at the extreme right is a siding for the creamery.

 

Hope this clears things up a bit.

 

John

[Grovenor]

Then you don't need the trap point in the passenger line but you do need one on the exit from the creamery. Trap points are required to protect passenger lines from goods lines or sidings, but not required in passenger lines.

Shame when its so nicely modelled that it is in the wrong place.

[RailWest]

3 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

Then you don't need the trap point in the passenger line but you do need one on the exit from the creamery. Trap points are required to protect passenger lines from goods lines or sidings, but not required in passenger lines.

Shame when its so nicely modelled that it is in the wrong place.

I second that - nice job, wrong place :-)

 

[brossard]

Dang!  Now that you mention it, that does make sense.  Must do some tooth sucking because it's a dockyard job to reposition.  Does it make a difference that all the stock using the creamer siding is AVB fitted?  Tanks and utility van.

 

...and the signal questions?

 

John

[RailWest]

3 minutes ago, brossard said:

Dang!  Now that you mention it, that does make sense.  Must do some tooth sucking because it's a dockyard job to reposition.  Does it make a difference that all the stock using the creamer siding is AVB fitted?  Tanks and utility van.

 

...and the signal questions?

 

John

No. Goods stock is goods stock.....

 

As a fudge - and not sure if the GNR used them - you might get away with providing a scotch-block that was put on/ taken off the rail by a lever in the SB, perhaps on the grounds that you did not want something to derail on the trap and demolish the water-tower or signal-box :-)

[31A]

They're not point indicators, they're stop/go ground signals worked by levers from the signal box, the same as the more familiar modern disc signals with a white disc with a red stripe across it.

 

They were gradually replaced with the modern type, and in fact rather than being replaced some of the GN signals were modernised by fixing discs to their faces, the 'stop' (red) side having a white disc with a horizontal red stripe fixed to it and the 'clear' (white) side having a disc with a diagonal red stripe fixed to it.  In other words the rotation of the signal then displayed the same aspects to the driver as a modern disc signal.

 

I did manage to get one working on a previous layout, by means of a crank under the baseboard with a counterweight that rose & fell, and converted that motion into a rotary one by means of a crank.  It worked quite well; I even got the weight arm to rise and fall!

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 03/09/2022 at 17:08, RailWest said:

>>>>The red disc facing the driver means the secondary route is selected, disc side on to the driver means the primary route is selected...

 

That makes them sound like non-independent 'point indicators' worked directly off the points and which merely show the position of the point rather than act as a stop/go signal.

 

Independent shunt signals worked by their own levers in the signal-box would indicate either 'stop' or 'route is set', regardless of which route if they served more than one.

And, as pointed out by '31A' there were of course rotating independent ground signals and I think that is what those from MSE probably are.  Here's one in the real world although for whatever reason it seems to have acquired a second balance weight.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[31A]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

And, as pointed out by '31A' there were of course rotating independent ground signals and I think that is what those from MSE probably are.  Here's one in the real world although for whatever reason it seems to have acquired a second balance weight.

 

 

 

Is it actually a second balance weight, or an electric repeater switch somehow driven off the rotating stem?

[Grovenor]

51 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

Is it actually a second balance weight, or an electric repeater switch somehow driven off the rotating stem?

Repeater certainly, its a crank operated circuit controller and you can see the cable.

[Michael Hodgson]

I've only ever seen them grey or zinc-coloured before though.  Painting it white seems sensible as it may be a bit of a tripping hazard otherwise.

Is it on a preserved line?

[Stephen Freeman]

Yes you can. The easiest way to motorised them is to join MERG and buy their servo mounts for a rotating application. If you use fine tube and wire you can even implement working lights. Not easy but you can do it.

 

When I am next on the pc I will see if I can find a photo or two.

[brossard]

18 hours ago, 31A said:

They're not point indicators, they're stop/go ground signals worked by levers from the signal box, the same as the more familiar modern disc signals with a white disc with a red stripe across it.

 

Just when I thought I was getting a handle on this, the stop/go thing has me flummoxed.  It seemed relatively straightforward to install point indicator signals.  However, I am now quite confused.  I have been to Google and there are one or two hits providing pics of modern disc signals, nothing on the earlier type.

 

I have the Kitchenside & Williams book on signalling but the focus there is on main signalling with ground signals mentioned, it seems, in passing.

 

For further clarity, this is an end on shot of my layout:

 

 

Entry to the layout is via a Y turnout in the distance.  To the right is a double slip with routes to a parcels/pull push train siding and the main passenger line.  The siding at right top is for the creamery and I have been told that this siding needs a trap point.  The exit from the slip to the Y turnout doesn't need a trap.

 

To the left of the Y is a line to the goods yard and crossover.  There is a siding for coal and livestock traffic.  The siding on the upper left is the engine shed.  All cliche's I know.

 

In terms of signal box controlled turnouts, the entry Y, slip, crossover and first turnout past and to the left of the Y would be in this category.  That leaves just one with manual lever control.

 

For me the most convenient thing would be to install ground signals as "point indicators".  I have seen reference to these used for crossovers.  So, if the signals I have are not correct for this, what are?

 

Thanks to all who have made the effort to respond. 

 

John

[Stephen Freeman]

I have just checked in the book by Michael Vanns on the subject. After about 1870 the signals became lever operated and were not connected directly to the blades.

 

As yours appear to have balance weights this puts them into lever operated era.

 

There were other subsequent modifications carried out over the years. There should possibly be 2 discs either fore and aft or front and side though I think it depends on application. The section in the book is quite short with only a few photos.

 

 

 

 

[brossard]

Thanks Stephen, I've been doing some further research.  There is very little out there it seems, even the G0G archive has just one article on ground signals. 

 

I did find a reproduction drawing of the M&H ground signal that describes them as "Ground Disc or Indicator Signals".  The ones I have are listed as "Disc signal to work with points" and "Independent disc worked by wire".

 

There is also a dual disc signal pictured where the lamps are fixed and the discs rotate around them.  These are called "independent disc".

 

So, yes, those I have appear to have been operated remotely in the prototype.  However, for the sake of construction and operator simplicity I am not averse to linking them to turnout position.

 

Frustrating that there is so little on this subject.

 

John

 

[Grovenor]

If you are modelling the 20th century then point indicators would be very rare, shunt signals were the norm. Lots of variations depending on company and the rotating variety are much easier to model working than others, especially if you don't mind the balance weight being dummy since all you need then is a vertical spindle through the board that can rotate 90 degrees. Drive easily arranged by crank and wire or a direct drive from a servo spindle.

 

Query, is it a terminus or a through station? It makes quite a difference to the signalling and we can't quite see what happens to the main track at the near end in the photo.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Grovenor

[brossard]

1 minute ago, Grovenor said:

If you are modelling the 20th century then point indicators would be very rare, shunt signals were the norm. Lots of variations depending on company and the rotating variety are much easier to model working than others, especially if you don't mind the balance weight being dummy since all you need then is a vertical spindle through the board that can rotate 90 degrees. Drive easily arranged by crank and wire or a direct drive from a servo spindle.

 

Yes, I'm at 1962 ish so probably should be using more modern types.  Such as this perhaps:

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/gs008/

 

However, this type is more challenging to make work.  The article I mentioned in G0G archive was about something similar.

 

I think if I can glean a better understanding of how ground signals work (and you guys have been a great help) I can make decisions on how to proceed.

 

John

[Grovenor]

2 hours ago, brossard said:

I think if I can glean a better understanding of how ground signals work (and you guys have been a great help) I can make decisions on how to proceed.

John

When you say, "how ground signals work" do you mean the mechanics or the operational function?

The former is pretty obvious, the lever pulls the wire, the signal goes to proceed, restore the lever the balance weight pulls the wire back and the signal goes to stop.

The latter is probably best explained by examples, if you post your track plan we can add signals to it with explanations.

[brossard]

49 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

When you say, "how ground signals work" do you mean the mechanics or the operational function?

The former is pretty obvious, the lever pulls the wire, the signal goes to proceed, restore the lever the balance weight pulls the wire back and the signal goes to stop.

The latter is probably best explained by examples, if you post your track plan we can add signals to it with explanations.

 

Sorry, poor choice of words.  I was thinking of the rationale for placing the signals on the layout and why they are there.  In a model context the actual operation will be totally different from the prototype.

 

Afraid I don't have a formal trackplan.  The best I have is the view above.

 

There is the question of whether the signals I have are suitable for the '60s or should I go ahead and get more modern ones.

 

John

Edited September 5, 2022 by brossard