Brixton Hill tram depot and its Trams

[thirty2a]

hi Colin,

at £50 you would have expected better!

those ploughs will struggle to get in and out.

Tony

[coline33]

17 minutes ago, thirty2a said:

hi Colin,

at £50 you would have expected better!

those ploughs will struggle to get in and out.

Tony

Even a dog could get between those guard rails!!!

[coline33]

My conversion of LPTB 2104 to LTE 2104 has reached as in the view attached.   Trolley ropes and cleats are tedious to make but improve the appearance.   The use of the ex-BEC triangular trolley hooks does finish off the front appearance.   Now who is going to catch me up and overtake!!!   Colin.

[thirty2a]

Colin,

that is a thing of beauty, lots of little detail there, i note the full door length and cream above the double doors, not something I have noted before to be honest. the cleats and trolley heads are well worth the effort in my opinion. mine are all currently just sitting on the book shelf with the LT tram books, need to do something with them. A look at tram allocation before they all disappear to narrow the ones I can re number them too..

tony

[coline33]

4 hours ago, thirty2a said:

Colin,

that is a thing of beauty, lots of little detail there, i note the full door length and cream above the double doors, not something I have noted before to be honest. the cleats and trolley heads are well worth the effort in my opinion. mine are all currently just sitting on the book shelf with the LT tram books, need to do something with them. A look at tram allocation before they all disappear to narrow the ones I can re number them too..

tony

Still to have the STOP sign at the exit doors.   It is OM40504 MET 355 which has the first retooled body, to give that full doofr panel, as will have OM40507 to be released as LTE 2079 with a lot of faults that will need correcting if it is to run on conduit lines!

[thirty2a]

@coline33 read an article by you Colin in scale model trains or some such mag from back in the day about modelling the 4 wheel cars, very interesting. Thanks to @wainwright1for letting me read it. 

 

still not started No1 and depot is lacking much in the way of action, I have had an idea though...

Tony

Edited March 31, 2023 by thirty2a

[coline33]

Thanks, Tony.   Yes, I think the article was published by Chris Ellis about 1982 and was written in collaboration with the late Frank (D W K) Jones.   Frank, like I, had a particular liking for works cars which was conveyed into modelling form by the late Adrian Swain.   Both of whom I miss greatly.   I had previously written an article on modelling Manchester's tramways which Chris published.   Little did I know that that was going to be exhibit number one when Manchester's police took me to court there for failing to stop precisely on the Stop Line at a congested road junction.   My AA solicitor could not believe that I won my case in that knowing the road layout from the 1930's road layout when there were three parallel tram tracks, I had in fact stopped just ahead of the line where I could see there was no oncoming traffic.   So I was judged to have maintained the spirit of the law.   My solicitor took the exhibit home as his father liked the trams!!!

[thirty2a]

what a great story! 

[thirty2a]

I should mention the LCC vol 1 by Ted Oakley (current Reading) and  a couple of Middleton Press purchases from Ally Pally in the collection are keeping my interest up. 

[thirty2a]

Work commenced 

re purpose of SR layout boards full 1200mm of depot 

[thirty2a]

[Johann Marsbar]

Apologies for asking a question that is a bit o/t, but it relates to London trams and I was wondering whether anyone on here might know the answer.

 

I'm in the process of trying to research a particular type of US made ticket/transfer machine - from the Shanklin Equipment Company - which ended up being used in the UK of which very little seems to have been published.

Trawling through online editions of the US Electric Railway Journal for the early 1920's, one of the adverts for said machines - In a September 1921 edition - mysteriously mentions "London. England" as somewhere using their machines.  It wasn't mentioned on any of their 1920 adverts, so that must have been a recent development.

In 1921, London United introduced an experimental one-man car - No. 341 - and this was said to have an "Automatic ticket machine" according to the LUT book by Robert J Harley, but doesn't give any further details.

I don't suppose anyone knows the source of the machine used on this vehicle?

[thirty2a]

An interesting question I will admit I don’t know but Colin may well have an answer…

 

Tony 

[thirty2a]

[Johann Marsbar]

18 minutes ago, thirty2a said:

An interesting question I will admit I don’t know but Colin may well have an answer…

 

Tony 

 

Well, actually, would you believe that I found the answer in the pages of said Electric Railway Journal about 45 minutes of posting that on here !!

 

This was a news item in one of the April 1922 editions.....(Read London United Tramways instead of London Tramways though.......)

 

 

That confirms it was definitely LUT as the London operator who lent some machines (+ some change giving machines) to Ipswich Corporation Tramways in mid-1923 prior to either those machines (which I think might be more likely) - or some new ones - being used on the experimental trolleybus service between Ipswich Station and the Cornhill  from 2nd September 1923 - i.e. 100 years ago this year.

 

The research is being carried out as part of one of the machines (the main casing) has managed to survive to today .......

 

 

...and I've just made it a bit more presentable for an exhibition at the Ipswich Transport Museum later this year!   

I'm trying to work out what the external missing parts of the machine looked like to see if some sort of mock-up could be made in the future.

 

If ICT didn't have their own machines - they only lasted unil 1924 when they were deemed too unreliable and were replaced by Bell-Punch tickets - this casing could actually be from the LUT purchased "lot" of machines.......

 

[coline33]

1 hour ago, Johann Marsbar said:

Apologies for asking a question that is a bit o/t, but it relates to London trams and I was wondering whether anyone on here might know the answer.

 

I'm in the process of trying to research a particular type of US made ticket/transfer machine - from the Shanklin Equipment Company - which ended up being used in the UK of which very little seems to have been published.

Trawling through online editions of the US Electric Railway Journal for the early 1920's, one of the adverts for said machines - In a September 1921 edition - mysteriously mentions "London. England" as somewhere using their machines.  It wasn't mentioned on any of their 1920 adverts, so that must have been a recent development.

In 1921, London United introduced an experimental one-man car - No. 341 - and this was said to have an "Automatic ticket machine" according to the LUT book by Robert J Harley, but doesn't give any further details.

I don't suppose anyone knows the source of the machine used on this vehicle?

Easter's now over,so back to work!!!   Johann, the 'bible' for anything LUT is the two volume "The London United Tramways" by my dear late friend Cyril Smeeton.   In Vol.2 is a chapter 22, starting with the one-man cars Nos. 341-344.   There is just mention of the ticket issuing machine in reference to 341.   However, for 342-344 there is reference to fitting of "Shanklin" ticket issuing machines plus American made Brandt "Universo" coin paying machines for giving change.   Both were pedal operated by the motorman.      These three cars were improvements on 341 which later was rebuild to be the same.   Thus I assume that "Shanklin", etc., were used on all four until withdrawn on 9th November, 1928 from the Hanwell-Brentford shuttle service 55, being scrapped in 1931.  These cars came into being as a result of a 1919 study tour of North American systems by the 'Combine's' top personnel and hence the knowledge of the American equipment.   

 

Pleased to have confirmed what you wanted to know,   Kind regards, Colin.

[coline33]

14 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

Well, actually, would you believe that I found the answer in the pages of said Electric Railway Journal about 45 minutes of posting that on here !!

 

This was a news item in one of the April 1922 editions.....(Read London United Tramways instead of London Tramways though.......)

 

 

That confirms it was definitely LUT as the London operator who lent some machines (+ some change giving machines) to Ipswich Corporation Tramways in mid-1923 prior to either those machines (which I think might be more likely) - or some new ones - being used on the experimental trolleybus service between Ipswich Station and the Cornhill  from 2nd September 1923 - i.e. 100 years ago this year.

 

The research is being carried out as part of one of the machines (the main casing) has managed to survive to today .......

 

 

...and I've just made it a bit more presentable for an exhibition at the Ipswich Transport Museum later this year!   

I'm trying to work out what the external missing parts of the machine looked like to see if some sort of mock-up could be made in the future.

 

If ICT didn't have their own machines - they only lasted unil 1924 when they were deemed too unreliable and were replaced by Bell-Punch tickets - this casing could actually be from the LUT purchased "lot" of machines.......

 

 

14 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

Well, actually, would you believe that I found the answer in the pages of said Electric Railway Journal about 45 minutes of posting that on here !!

 

This was a news item in one of the April 1922 editions.....(Read London United Tramways instead of London Tramways though.......)

 

 

That confirms it was definitely LUT as the London operator who lent some machines (+ some change giving machines) to Ipswich Corporation Tramways in mid-1923 prior to either those machines (which I think might be more likely) - or some new ones - being used on the experimental trolleybus service between Ipswich Station and the Cornhill  from 2nd September 1923 - i.e. 100 years ago this year.

 

The research is being carried out as part of one of the machines (the main casing) has managed to survive to today .......

 

 

...and I've just made it a bit more presentable for an exhibition at the Ipswich Transport Museum later this year!   

I'm trying to work out what the external missing parts of the machine looked like to see if some sort of mock-up could be made in the future.

 

If ICT didn't have their own machines - they only lasted unil 1924 when they were deemed too unreliable and were replaced by Bell-Punch tickets - this casing could actually be from the LUT purchased "lot" of machines.......

 

Johann, herewith front view of a LUT ticket from a Shanklin machine.   Colin. 

[thirty2a]

Quote

14 hours ago, coline33 said:

the 'bible' for anything LUT is the two volume "The London United Tramways" by my dear late friend Cyril Smeeton.   In Vol.2

well now Colin, funnily enough just won 3 books of of Flea bay for £10 from your friend Mr Smeeton  so looking forward to a good read. 

 

[Johann Marsbar]

9 minutes ago, coline33 said:

 

Johann, herewith front view of a LUT ticket from a Shanklin machine.   Colin. 

 

Brilliant - Thanks for that.     I have one of the Ipswich tickets which needs scanning again as it wasn't done at a particularly high dpi rating but this is the original scan from many years ago with a couple of ICT Bell Punch tickets for size comparison.....

 

 

There are differences in fares/categories between the ICT and LUT versions so the machines must have been either altered for use here or they were a different production batch.

I found this description of the machines from a 1920 ERJ this morning which does give info on the size of the thing and what the preset buttons/dials were for.....

 

 

So far, the only places I've seem mentioned as using the machines, other than LUT & ICT, were Terre Haute & Eastern in Indiana, Springfield in Massachusetts, Providence in Rhode Island, and two in western Pennsylvania - Beaver Valley Traction and the Pittsburg & Beaver Street Rly - both based in New Brighton, Pa.

That's hardly a vast number of users, particularly considering the number of vehicles involved on LUT (4) and ICT (3) !

 

I think we might have those LUT volumes you mentioned in our Museum library, so will have a look up there tomorrow when I'm on duty there.  Incidentally, we do still have one of the 3 vehicles the machines were used on in our collection as well......

 

[coline33]

3 minutes ago, thirty2a said:

 

2002 was a sad year being the last to see Cyril.   Prior to his move from Worthing to the Peak District, for decades we had met monthly at TLRS and LTHG meetings.   My contribution to his LUT and MET books was in respect of the Felthams, the works cars and the Combine cars in the LPTB period.   When we met last he was alone and being cared for.   On the day following my call on the first Sunday in July, his carer phoned me to thank me for coming.   I had spent five hours and the carers could not believe how life came back into him to last for so long.   I had taken my Feltham photo album and out came the last update of new info since we last met.

[coline33]

4 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

Brilliant - Thanks for that.     I have one of the Ipswich tickets which needs scanning again as it wasn't done at a particularly high dpi rating but this is the original scan from many years ago with a couple of ICT Bell Punch tickets for size comparison.....

 

 

There are differences in fares/categories between the ICT and LUT versions so the machines must have been either altered for use here or they were a different production batch.

I found this description of the machines from a 1920 ERJ this morning which does give info on the size of the thing and what the preset buttons/dials were for.....

 

 

So far, the only places I've seem mentioned as using the machines, other than LUT & ICT, were Terre Haute & Eastern in Indiana, Springfield in Massachusetts, Providence in Rhode Island, and two in western Pennsylvania - Beaver Valley Traction and the Pittsburg & Beaver Street Rly - both based in New Brighton, Pa.

That's hardly a vast number of users, particularly considering the number of vehicles involved on LUT (4) and ICT (3) !

 

I think we might have those LUT volumes you mentioned in our Museum library, so will have a look up there tomorrow when I'm on duty there.  Incidentally, we do still have one of the 3 vehicles the machines were used on in our collection as well......

 

Johann, if in LUT Vol 2 there is not a view of the driver's cab of 342, I do have a view of the cab and another of a person paying the fare to the motorman.   However, it is not easy to see the Shanklin!   Let me know if of interest, please?   Colin.

[Johann Marsbar]

I found this report from January 1925 about the LUT one-man cars - in particular 342 - in the ERJ this morning......

 

 

From that article they seemed to be designing their own ticket machine at that time as well.

Interestingly, the last advert or mention I can find from the Shanklin company in that publication seems to be from September 1923, having checked as far as 18 months after that one appeared.  My guess is that orders wern't coming in to the extent expected and it makes you wonder how long the Company actually lasted?

[thirty2a]

Thanks for posting Johann it is very interesting aspect that is seldom discussed, it does seem they didn't last very long ..

Tony

[coline33]

2 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

I found this report from January 1925 about the LUT one-man cars - in particular 342 - in the ERJ this morning......

 

 

From that article they seemed to be designing their own ticket machine at that time as well.

Interestingly, the last advert or mention I can find from the Shanklin company in that publication seems to be from September 1923, having checked as far as 18 months after that one appeared.  My guess is that orders wern't coming in to the extent expected and it makes you wonder how long the Company actually lasted?

Johann, you are uncovering a lot that the historians seem to have pushed into the long as they had not the proof.   I am only a historian when it comes to London Transport's first generation trams and only go pre-1933 where previous history of a LT car is necessary.   Hence I can only read what others have written about one-man cars in London, as none ever survived to be LPTB.  LUT was not the first in London to use one-man cars.   Before WW1 there were the Raworth demi-cars and when Dartford purchased one and numbered it 13, the depot burnt down with the whole fleet!!!

 

So I am putting 2+2 into action!.   I suspect that 341 was fitted with a Shanklin for its trial route in the Kingston area to suit the Met police.   By 1922 LUT had incorporated the police regulations into a completely new car (in fact three cars 342-4 were needed to take over the 55 service) and experience with the Shanklin was improved by their own version which was quicker to issue tickets.  341 was then completely rebuilt as a bogie car near enough to 342-4.   So did Shanklin or someone else manufacture the faster machine?   Your mystery continues and I suggest you ought to write an article for "Tramway Review" starting with the use on LUT trams and then with ICT trolleybuses.   If so, I will put you in touch.   Colin.

 

 

[coline33]

1 minute ago, coline33 said:

Johann, you are uncovering a lot that the historians seem to have pushed into the long as they had not the proof.   I am only a historian when it comes to London Transport's first generation trams and only go pre-1933 where previous history of a LT car is necessary.   Hence I can only read what others have written about one-man cars in London, as none ever survived to be LPTB.  LUT was not the first in London to use one-man cars.   Before WW1 there were the Raworth demi-cars and when Dartford purchased one and numbered it 13, the depot burnt down with the whole fleet!!!

 

So I am putting 2+2 into action!.   I suspect that 341 was fitted with a Shanklin for its trial route in the Kingston area to suit the Met police.   By 1922 LUT had incorporated the police regulations into a completely new car (in fact three cars 342-4 were needed to take over the 55 service) and experience with the Shanklin was improved by their own version which was quicker to issue tickets.  341 was then completely rebuilt as a bogie car near enough to 342-4.   So did Shanklin or someone else manufacture the faster machine?   Your mystery continues and I suggest you ought to write an article for "Tramway Review" starting with the use on LUT trams and then with ICT trolleybuses.   If so, I will put you in touch.   Colin.

 

 

Forgot to add that the photos of 342 are the same as those in books but I do have one of passenger paying a fare on 341 if you need it.