Why are new trains so awful

[phil-b259]

 

 

It is good to read on how Thameslink was created out of the need to flummox the treasury - seems to be quite easy today clearly standards have slipped there as well...  

.   

 

British Rail was actually pretty good at running rings round civil servants on occasion - and as the Stationmaster has said several times, keeping the Politicians out of operational matters.

 

Its why calls for renationalisation won't fix anything - without the establishment of a new British Railways Board that has the ability to insulate the railway from Whitehall, nationalisation will just perpetuate the current nonsense. Having now 'got control' of the railways, the inhabitants of Whitehall won't let go of it again......

[brianusa]

Anybody flown Coach recently?  You may have noticed a remarkable similarity between airplane and railway carriage; both are uncomfortable and much too small, especially in view of the fact that people are getting bigger.  You might remember the beginning of the jet age when even Coach was comfortable for a Transatlantic flight, the food was quite good and the service more than adequate.  Then came the Jumbos; for a while all was well until it was discovered you could reduce fares and cram ever more in accordingly. This approach seems to work for the railway as well; gone is the 'luxury' of the early Mks to be replaced by what ever logarithms make the most money and the least comfort  in what passes for carriage design in this day and age.

 

Don't come home so much anymore but after many hours travelling even in Business, it would be nice to do so in comfort back on the railway as well..

 

Brian

[Reorte]

I really detest the Pendolinos. You get a better view out of the window of a Boeing 737.

The seats themselves on them aren't too bad though.

[russ p]

British Rail was actually pretty good at running rings round civil servants on occasion - and as the Stationmaster has said several times, keeping the Politicians out of operational matters.

 

Its why calls for renationalisation won't fix anything - without the establishment of a new British Railways Board that has the ability to insulate the railway from Whitehall, nationalisation will just perpetuate the current nonsense. Having now 'got control' of the railways, the inhabitants of Whitehall won't let go of it again......

Problem is if the railway was renationalised it would be the same idots running it that we have now.

The days of the railwaymen that ran it under BR have gone unfortunately

I say this with a heavy heart the downside of the railway paying decent money now has attracted all kinds of ar£eholes and bullyboys and girls into the job who would not have looked twice at it under BR or being accepted by BR

This lot have steam rollered through upper management not trying at all to fit in with established practices ,the trick these days by this lot is don't learn anything about your role make new rules and practices and bully people into learning your rules!

As I have said before on here you never meet any one on the railway to aspire to now like you did on BR.

Several years ago I had the good fortune to have a few meetings with stationmaster Mike, he was a proper old school manager who got respect

[russ p]

The seats themselves on them aren't too bad though.

Only if you fit in a milk bottle!

I always bang my head when standing up, the APT was much better

[Reorte]

Only if you fit in a milk bottle!

I always bang my head when standing up, the APT was much better

I agree about the room (I'm 6'3" tall), I only meant that the bits you sit on and lean on are fine, and it is a good point about Grayrigg. I'm not at all fond of the Pendolinos but there's no denying that that demonstrated their crashworthiness is downright impressive. I'd still rather travel on something a bit older given the choice but credit where credit's due.

[009 micro modeller]

sorry for going off topic a bit, but I do look forward to the Mk5s on TPE to see if lessons learnt. Sad to see one lesson not learnt in that 185s to be "given back" rather than be used to eradicate overcrowding, I wonder what warped minds are at work

 

Robert

I'm sure it's been covered elsewhere but what was the rationale behind going for hauled stock rather than units for TPE? Was it simply the ability to switch over without complete replacement in the event of future electrification?

[DIW]

As I type this I have the misfortune to be traveling from Ely to Kings cross in a god awful class 700

I know there is a stupid directive for the seats but someone should actually stand up and challenge the idiot who thought these were a good idea .Idiot is nowhere near a strong enough word.

These seats hurt! I've Been on more comfortable fairground rides

Not only the seats though the train is horrible the interior has the ambiance of a multistory car park and the ride is rock hard. First class is a joke.

Somebody needs to he made answerable for these monstrosities, they are not fit for purpose.

All right for the center Thameslink section but for Cambridge to Brighton!!! That is essentially an intercity journey.

I travelled this way for a change from the GEML but won't again if I can help it,mind that will be as bad soon.

I think its time there was some kind of backlash against railway companies inflicting the public with cr@p like this!

Sad to see Potter's full of 365s which weren't actually that bad and ironically when built were set up for Thameslink operations which were cancelled at the time

 

Same builder, same seat-too-hard problem, different seating density:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/6288115.stm

 

There were at least two prongs on the attack against the trains,

 

Petition to retain the class 442 on the route

 

Website set up to protest directly (http://www.no450.co.uk/) which is no longer available.

 

Recent events see the new incumbent TOC ressurecting the Class 442s for the route, so perhap a protest about the new stock on your route may bear fruit in a decade or so?

[phil-b259]

I'm sure it's been covered elsewhere but what was the rationale behind going for hauled stock rather than units for TPE? Was it simply the ability to switch over without complete replacement in the event of future electrification?

 

At the time the Mk5s were ordered full electrification was expected within a decade, so not only was flexibility was seen as vital, but the costs worked out better than new DMUs or unproven bi-modes. Once electrified, new EMUs were envisaged (remember the use of a loco hauled option takes up space that otherwise could be used by a passenger carrying vehicle) with the Mk5s being used on routes that were never going to get wires anyway (like Scarborough)

 

Since then, with Grayling and co axing (or 'pausing' as they phrase it) for god knows how long then they could stay on the core Trans Pennine routes for the long term - although if there is a need for further passenger capacity in future then moving to a bi-mode unit solution to get rid of the 'dead space' loco might be attractive

[russ p]

I agree about the room (I'm 6'3" tall), I only meant that the bits you sit on and lean on are fine, and it is a good point about Grayrigg. I'm not at all fond of the Pendolinos but there's no denying that that demonstrated their crashworthiness is downright impressive. I'd still rather travel on something a bit older given the choice but credit where credit's due.

Mk3s are strong enough for me if its a compromise between safety and a comfortable train the mk3 has about the right balance

A few months back there was something on look east about the railway going wrong and some woman was on there saying I don't care,bi just want the new trains and comfortable seats... How disappointed will she be when the souped up tramcar turns up?

[Northmoor]

I recall the surprise of how well the Mk1s survived when aimed at a flask wagon, speed 100mph IIRC. The corollary to that was how badly the 4REP failed at Clapham at a lower speed - chassis had mods that did not help.

I well remember the comments on the Mk1 structures surviving quite well in Operation Smash Hit, even some of the windows were unbroken.  However (a) the train only hit a single (if heavy) wagon, (b) stopped in about it's own length from 100mph, which is rapid but easily survivable and ©, all the tables, most of the luggage racks and quite a few seat cushions were at the leading end of the coaches.  Any passengers on board would have been horrifically injured, or probably worse.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Northmoor

[Zunnan]

I've found the most comfortable I've been travelling by rail recently has been the packed long haul services where your booked seat has been taken by someone else, so I've ended up sitting on my suitcase. The last time I sat in a Pendo seat I ended up with L5 to L4 and L4 to L3 damage and inflames knees and got a sick note from the docs which ran into months. Its got so bad in recent years that I prefer to sit in traffic in the car rather than do even short hop journeys.

[russ p]

At the time the Mk5s were ordered full electrification was expected within a decade, so not only was flexibility was seen as vital, but the costs worked out better than new DMUs or unproven bi-modes. Once electrified, new EMUs were envisaged (remember the use of a loco hauled option takes up space that otherwise could be used by a passenger carrying vehicle) with the Mk5s being used on routes that were never going to get wires anyway (like Scarborough)

 

Since then, with Grayling and co axing (or 'pausing' as they phrase it) for god knows how long then they could stay on the core Trans Pennine routes for the long term - although if there is a need for further passenger capacity in future then moving to a bi-mode unit solution to get rid of the 'dead space' loco might be attractive

It doesn't really matter about the loco on these routes as the trains aren't that long but most of the stations are long but in any case you can just run the loco off the end.

There seemsvto be an awful lot of Gubbins in the 68s for the mk5s but the jumper looks like something on the back of a TV

[caradoc]

I have to agree with the criticisms of Class 700; The seats are too hard, and the lack of tables in Standard, even a small one sufficient for a coffee cup, is absurd. However, not all new trains are awful; I find the Class 387s, for example, perfectly suitable for their usage. And I haven't been on many, if any, trains with seats as close together as the airliners I flew between Heathrow and New York last year; There was barely room to extend one's arms enough to eat !

[phil-b259]

Mk3s are strong enough for me if its a compromise between safety and a comfortable train the mk3 has about the right balance

A few months back there was something on look east about the railway going wrong and some woman was on there saying I don't care,bi just want the new trains and comfortable seats... How disappointed will she be when the souped up tramcar turns up?

 

Are we talking the 700s or the new Grater Anglia fleet? Because apart from 3+2 seating and carpets the 'Aventras' from Bombardier don't look that different https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/form/transforming-your-railway-with-new-trains

[russ p]

Are we talking the 700s or the new Grater Anglia fleet? Because apart from 3+2 seating and carpets the 'Aventras' from Bombardier don't look that different https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/form/transforming-your-railway-with-new-trains

No, they are stadler flirts but are like nothing before , most of the equipment is on the roof and as they articulated the floor drops away between the bogies.

How these are disabled compliant is beyond me.

The bimodes are going to have a power car which is basically a short cabless BoBo loco with a 88 engine either side of a gangway!

[phil-b259]

I've found the most comfortable I've been travelling by rail recently has been the packed long haul services where your booked seat has been taken by someone else, so I've ended up sitting on my suitcase. The last time I sat in a Pendo seat I ended up with L5 to L4 and L4 to L3 damage and inflames knees and got a sick note from the docs which ran into months. Its got so bad in recent years that I prefer to sit in traffic in the car rather than do even short hop journeys.

 

Did you raise the issue with the conductor?

 

While there is not a lot they can do if the person sat in your seat flatly refuses to move when asked to do so (offering to find you a seat in 1st class, unless you have a particular health issue say creates a problem with all the other standees demanding the same) making it 'official' gives you ammunition to get compensation from the TOC - particularly if you have had to be signed off work as a result.

[dibber25]

Engineers knew how to design carriages in the 1930s. They knew how to align the seats with the windows (or the windows with the seats). Nowadays they have either forgotten how or just don't care tuppence for their customers.

 

I really detest the Pendolinos. You get a better view out of the window of a Boeing 737.

 

The class 142 Pacers are great. You get a wonderful view. The windows are big and the seat-backs are not so high that you get a pain in the neck trying to see over them.

 

...R

 

But the last time I travelled on a train, the only person looking out of the window was me! Today's 'mobile gadget' generation don't need windows at all. They aren't interested in anything that isn't on a 2in square screen. I'd design trains with NO windows. 

[jjb1970]

I really detest the Pendolinos. You get a better view out of the window of a Boeing 737.

 

 

 

In fairness to trains I've flown quite a few times in "window" seats and had nothing but a plastic panel to look at, including in 737's. Most airliners have seats that don't line up with windows and a lot of them have window seats with no window.

[Dunsignalling]

Don't tell me.... DFT?

How did you guess?

[APOLLO]

There's sod all to see on today's railways from the "souped up tram" windows anyway - Thats if your lucky enough to get a "seat" next to one. Just vegetation and the odd rusty siding now and again - oh, did I mention vegetation - soon be summer, lots of green, spot the colourfull flowers these days !!!!!!

 

"bing bong - for security purposes -- - -- -- -- --- "   "bing bong It is an offence to ---  ---- ----- -"  "bing bong we apologise for --------  --- -- ---" 

 

Brit15

[Dunsignalling]

Mk3s are strong enough for me if its a compromise between safety and a comfortable train the mk3 has about the right balance

A few months back there was something on look east about the railway going wrong and some woman was on there saying I don't care,bi just want the new trains and comfortable seats... How disappointed will she be when the souped up tramcar turns up?

If the DFT were really bothered about safety, there'd be seat belts and a ban on standing.

 

We all know that's never going to happen because half of London would need to be demolished to make way for the extra rail infrastructure required to run twice as many trains..

 

John

Edited April 26, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Darius43]

It would appear that the DfT is competing with the Home Office with respect to inflicting pain and suffering upon the British public.

 

Darius

[Robert Shrives]

Hi 

Sad but true thus you and I are paying for stock to sit in fields !!!! 

[DY444]

Worse of course is that this super strong train is now back in service after superfical damage ... or is it ?? 

 

Robert    

 

The most badly damaged vehicles from the Grayrigg derailment Pendolino were scrapped.  The rest are at Crewe where they are used as a static training centre for VT on-board staff.

Edited April 27, 2018 by DY444