You don't see bobbies on the beat any more?

[spikey]

Very interesting post, br2975. Where do you reckon we go from here? How much worse can it get before something sensible and useful is actually done to start alleviating the problems facing the police, and what might that something need to be to start with?

[br2975]

For those voicing concerns about policing numbers, response times the visibility of officers (or lack of), and the perceived inaction of the police; may I suggest you make an approach to your local PCC or Chief Constable and ask to be allowed to spend a night shift sat in your local forces' control rooms; from the air conditioned luxury, you can then listened to the continual stream of calls the operators receive........every call is someone's emergency, and  as the evening wears on and more and more  people arrested, statements to be taken, enquiries to be made, patients to be watched over, prisoners to be guarded, files of evidence prepared ..............watch as those operators juggle with an increasing number of calls and decreasing number of available resources.

.

This is a juggling act performed 24/7 - I invite some of you to sit there, and after just one shift tell the staff how you would do it better, with the same resources.

.

[Horsetan]

Very interesting post, br2975. Where do you reckon we go from here? 

 

Throwing more money at it?

[62613]

Throwing more money at it?

Well, the current regime of taking money away from the police service doen't seem to be working!

[PatB]

One thing that I'm fairly sure isn't going to work is contracting out more and more policing functions to private operators. It's another country I know, but a decade or more ago an aspect of my job brought me into contact with elements of the private security industry here in WA. That experience led me to have pretty much zero confidence in the idea of allowing any of them anywhere near anything resembling real authority. I haven't  seen anything in the intervening years that has changed my opinion one iota.

[Moggs Eye]

Presumably those who claim never to see a police officer anymore spend all their time watching for one to go by. Many of them tend to moan about the lack of police action in a particular area that irritates them, but complain when the police take about something which irritates others. For example - why don't they ever do anything about people speeding past my house before complaining when they are caught speeding past somebody else's. There are other examples that may not anger the motoring community so much, but I use that one to make a point.

There are lazy, incompetent, arrogant and useless cops in the same way there are useless, incompetent, arrogant and useless airline pilots, beauticians, chiropodists, doctors, builders, pole dancers, lion tamers, astronauts, sailors, butchers, bakers and candlestick makers, but they are not all like that. The UK police, which manages to deal with all kinds of problems and issues that society generates, is but a reflection of the UK population and does all that with considerable good humour and restraint. Many overseas law enforcement agents marvel at the threats and individual distress the British cop manages with negotiation, humour, tact and restraint.

There are problems in UK policing, few would attempt to deny that, but most cops are doing their very best to overcome them and provide the best service they can despite of them.

No doubt many folk will read this and come back at me with their own tales of the last time they, their family members, friends, social media acquaintances or people they heard of had a negative experience of the police and I regret each and every one of those encounters. The cop you won't have come into contact with will be one who is supporting, comforting, maybe crying with the victim of a brutal rape, the police officer keeping open the mangled airway of a trapped, dying motorist, talking with him, holding his hand so he isn't dying alone while the paramedics and firefighters try to cut him out, or the response cop who knows they are one of three night duty officers who will have to face hundreds of drunken revellers in a summer seaside town later on when they won't have any time for food, a drink or a moment to breathe.

Out.

[Mike Storey]

The public remain blissfully unaware of the myriad of tasks that have landed in the lap of the police in recent years.

.

Mental Health - the amount of time officers spend dealing with mental illness and its consequences, due to cuts in health budgets. It is commonplace for officers who have detained a person under say Sec.136 of the Mental Health Act to spend hours waiting at a mental health facility whilst suitable staff can be found to assess the detainee, before they can be admitted.

 

Then we have those who are 'detained' at mental health facilities who are 'allowed out for an hour' unsupervised and fail to return, cue a missing person report for the police to follow up and which could occupy an officer for a full tour of duty.

.

Alleged minor assaults by one patient upon another in a mental health facility. Unless their is medical evidence to suggest the aggressor has 'no capacity' the matter will be fully investigated, only to be later discontinued by the Crown Prosecution Service.

.

It is common for staff to sustain minor assaults in such institutions whilst dealing with patients, which require investigation, but where it is then not uncommon for the member of staff not to seek any positive police action, even when the aggressor may have 'capacity'

.

Ambulances - In many parts of the country, the eta (estimated time of arrival) of ambulances and paramedics at emergency calls can be hours, yes hours and at times the local ambulance control will advise the police they have no ambulances available, and can give no eta. This leaves the police officers at scene with a dilemma,  do the police officers stay with patient at the scene to await the eventual arrival of an ambulance (thereby reducing the already low numbers of officers on the local streets), or, do they convey the patient to hospital in a police vehicle that has recently carried drunks, drug addicts, or a stolen bicycle or two ? -  This latter scenario brings on another dilemma for the officers, namely the fear of the patients injuries worsening, due to the officers lack of knowledge or worse, the patient dies which then could be considered a 'death after contact' and which then attracts the attention of the (Not so) Independent Police Complaints Commission. Any officer who has experienced an IPCC investigation will be aware of the effect upon their subsequent morale, and policing methods. The unavailable ambulances are invariably queuing outside A&E with patients inside, as A&E is clogged with those who should not be there, those with drug or drink induced injuries, the lonely, the homeless. 

.

Social Services - For reasons only known to the social services there is a growing trend for their staff to advise their clients to contact the police 'outside office hours and at weekends' thereby placing a greater burden on an already stretched police service; who are called upon to deal with "my twelve year old daughter Nevaeh won't tidy her bedroom' or "my ten year old son Tyler-J won't hand over the Sky remote" .

.

Missing Persons - The public cannot imagine the amount of police time dedicated to the tracing of missing persons, an overwhelming majority of whom are teenagers missing from local authority care, supported housing, foster care or mental health facilities. The  majority of those missing persons draining police resources are the repeat 'mispers' who may have been reported missing 30, 40 even 100 times previously, some of whom have just failed to observe a hostel curfew, many are staying with friends but as the hostel staffing levels are limited, there is no member of staff available to look for the missing person, and if there were they would have no powers to forcibly return the missing person to the hostel.......in short, many teenagers and older folk are reported in line with 'hostel policy' and are not, in reality they are not, what you and I consider 'missing'. Many missing youngsters are so  street savvy it is others who are in danger, not the missing person.

.

Over the last few years, the agencies I have outlined above have become unable (I hold back from saying 'unwilling') to fulfill their expected responsibilities to society, but are well aware that the police are the service of last resort, the service who cannot say no................despite the drastic cuts in police numbers, during the same period these agencies have also seen their budgets cut. 

.

These are just a few things your local bobby may be doing when you expect him or her to be wandering around your streets.

 

A superb summary of the issues which so many politicians and media outlets sweep under the carpet, and my personal observations and periods of working directly with police, on the ground and with agencies, entirely supports that. Most of my time was spent working with and alongside the BTP, a very underappreciated force in the 1980's through to the 2000's, even by the county forces, but increasingly respected. But my greatest admiration went to the, so often criticised, Met in dealing with the minute-by-minute anti-social behaviours of the more obvious (but not representative) occupants of public areas in Stratford, East London. We (as in the Olympics) were applying pressure for the area to be "cleaned up", but a few days spent (in cognito) with front line coppers, showed me just what an awesome job the Police did, in calming tensions, confronting behaviours and only taking "official" action as a last resort. Absolute heroes, and completely underpaid and undervalued.

 

But......on mental health issues, which does waste so much police time across the country, there are best practice methods which other forces seem reluctant to adopt. Purely anecdotally, my son-in-law (an overqualified senior nurse) manages a street team of NHS mental health crisis professionals in West Yorkshire. They are called out mainly by the Police, but also by care regime council staff and some others, to carry out instant appraisals of "clients" to establish what progression of the law is most appropriate. In the vast majority of cases, their assessment results in the normal application of the law, as the mental health issues presented are usually, shall we say, non-credible. They have no targets to arrive at this conclusion (their only targets are response time and minimum staff level coverage, the latter is proving a struggle) and their key issue is the lack of facilities into which "clients" deemed having significant mental health problems, can be accommodated. In other words, it is not necessary, given such an approach, to drag someone along to a nominated centre of speciality, if street teams are used. And such an approach has proven to be highly cost-effective, as well as focussed on the clients missed by the other agencies.

 

It is most certainly about lack of funds in general (the UK now falls well below the OECD average per capita spend on all these functions), but there are pockets of innovation like this, which can assist.

 

Here in France, where there is an equally applicable level of mental health related issues, even in the countryside (perhaps even more so), public attitudes are "sympa" but NIMBY is even more prevalent, and the regime is bureaucratically rigid. We had a genuinely tragic issue with a vagrant locally, who was sleeping in bus shelters (yes, we have them, despite having no buses, other than the school run) and then in the forecourt of our local food bank, where he broke a few of our windows to get a few tins of food now and again. He had been a very respectable pillar of the community with wife and kids and big house, but had a nervous breakdown, became a drunk and vagrant, refused all help and lived a horrible life. The Gendarmes would not arrest him because the magistrate would throw it out, but not also order help. Social services tried to place him in a hostel, but gave up. No-one would section him, which is what was needed, because they could not prove he was a sufficient danger. He died during the winter, frozen to death in a caravan, which some kind locals let him use, but the Mayor's office banned the use of gas cannisters for cooking and heating, at 43. No lessons to be learned here.

[jjb1970]

I think there is a general issue in the public service of constantly expanding procedures and paperwork and inventing ways to try and measure performance and productivity. I'm an engineer and fully understand the principle that if you can measure something you can understand it and improve it. That is a bit of a simplification even in engineering disciplines (there are plenty of measurements you can collect that don't tell you much of anything) but it is sorely inadequate when it comes to human behaviours (there is a good reason that in an older era disciplines such as economics were as much about moral philosophy as about numbers and economic theorising). The constant expansion of procedures that in many cases quite obviously contribute nothing to anything but administrative work saps morale, a cynic might say that is considered a benefit by the administrators as a demoralised work force is often more pliable. Fundamentally there is the point which some of those who see ever more complicated procedures to ensure more effective service can never offer a convincing answer for - if you can't trust somebody to give their best based on their own sense of professionalism honestly then why would you trust them to complete some burdensome procedure honestly? I've worked with civil servants for many years (and was a civil servant myself for a while, but don't tell people that....) and it never ceases to sadden me to see the baleful effects of the sort of silly emphasis on process, KPIs and form filling that sucks the life and morale out of people who are highly intelligent. I'm probably more critical of DafT than most, and have spent a long time working on MoD projects and the problem is not that these people are thick or lazy (quite the opposite), rather the whole system is dysfunctional. However don't ask me how to fix it.

[Mike Storey]

I think there is a general issue in the public service of constantly expanding procedures and paperwork and inventing ways to try and measure performance and productivity. I'm an engineer and fully understand the principle that if you can measure something you can understand it and improve it. That is a bit of a simplification even in engineering disciplines (there are plenty of measurements you can collect that don't tell you much of anything) but it is sorely inadequate when it comes to human behaviours (there is a good reason that in an older era disciplines such as economics were as much about moral philosophy as about numbers and economic theorising). The constant expansion of procedures that in many cases quite obviously contribute nothing to anything but administrative work saps morale, a cynic might say that is considered a benefit by the administrators as a demoralised work force is often more pliable. Fundamentally there is the point which some of those who see ever more complicated procedures to ensure more effective service can never offer a convincing answer for - if you can't trust somebody to give their best based on their own sense of professionalism honestly then why would you trust them to complete some burdensome procedure honestly? I've worked with civil servants for many years (and was a civil servant myself for a while, but don't tell people that....) and it never ceases to sadden me to see the baleful effects of the sort of silly emphasis on process, KPIs and form filling that sucks the life and morale out of people who are highly intelligent. I'm probably more critical of DafT than most, and have spent a long time working on MoD projects and the problem is not that these people are thick or lazy (quite the opposite), rather the whole system is dysfunctional. However don't ask me how to fix it.

 

Very insightful. The answer, as you freely concede, is difficult.

 

The risk-based assessment of projects (or, later, any ongoing process) was supposed to assist in better decision-making. But it never quite worked out that way. Speculation abounds, but none are convincing. People therefore retreat into what worked before (whether it really did nor not) as more comforting. Because history is dictated by winners, and fact does not usually feature. Life is very, very complex, but people seek simple answers. I blame George Dixon, but perhaps I have over-simplified that?

[Mallard60022]

Just noticed this post. In my hometown of Retford they train 'new' officers and there are often many pairs of uniformed constables strolling about. Pity they are not there every day as our town is suffering from small townitis of lack of resident PCs and a rise in local low level crime including some horrible animal cruelty and idiots racing around the place in 'hot cars' and on 'daft' motorbikes 'till all hours of the night/morning. There is also a lot of petty theft, vandalism and nuisance from drink and drug influence. Sometimes the town is not a nice place to be in.

Phil

Edited May 10, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Purley Oaks]

There are beat police in Edinburgh city; living near Arthur's Seat there are regular helicopters, especially when there's a royal in Holyrood Palace (you can tell by the Royal Standard flying over the palace or not). The patrol at Edinburgh airport is usually armed.

[10000]

Well I've read the posts on here in support of the police but I'm sorry they do not change my view of the Police Force/Service/Pseudo Army or what  ever they want to be called.

 

I don't let the couple of speeding tickets  I got back in my motorcycle days, they were a fair cop (pardon the pun), colour my view.

 

Over the years I have known bent cops. Bullies who were in uniform because of the power it gave them. Senior officers who called up a car to escort them home when over the limit.  But also some reasonable people who wanted to do a good job.  I also feel sorry for their families. Many years ago my wife worked with a young lady (late teens to early twenties) who was beaten up on a regular basis because her farther was a detective in the local station. She stayed with us a few times after nights out when he was not available to pick her up.

 

The problem lies with the management/organisation of the service. For too many years just like most tax payer funded organisations, including the ones that should have made a profit like the steel industry, they have had  an attitude about spending money that would not be acceptable in private industry/business. I saw this attitude first hand when I worked in the nationalised steel industry and many years later when I did some work for a council.

 

But now they are in the real world and just like a private industry having to shed jobs because of falling sales the management and hanger ons (like HR etc) make sure their jobs are protected and get rid of the front line workers. Then with the reduced number they decide what to deal with for example the recent incidents where 6 officers had a photo call with a ex footballer when his car was recovered but someone who's home was burgled and car stolen didn't even get a visit from one officer.

Edited May 10, 2018 by 10000

[Norm81]

I think there is a general issue in the public service of constantly expanding procedures and paperwork and inventing ways to try and measure performance and productivity. I'm an engineer and fully understand the principle that if you can measure something you can understand it and improve it. That is a bit of a simplification even in engineering disciplines (there are plenty of measurements you can collect that don't tell you much of anything) but it is sorely inadequate when it comes to human behaviours (there is a good reason that in an older era disciplines such as economics were as much about moral philosophy as about numbers and economic theorising). The constant expansion of procedures that in many cases quite obviously contribute nothing to anything but administrative work saps morale, a cynic might say that is considered a benefit by the administrators as a demoralised work force is often more pliable. Fundamentally there is the point which some of those who see ever more complicated procedures to ensure more effective service can never offer a convincing answer for - if you can't trust somebody to give their best based on their own sense of professionalism honestly then why would you trust them to complete some burdensome procedure honestly? I've worked with civil servants for many years (and was a civil servant myself for a while, but don't tell people that....) and it never ceases to sadden me to see the baleful effects of the sort of silly emphasis on process, KPIs and form filling that sucks the life and morale out of people who are highly intelligent. I'm probably more critical of DafT than most, and have spent a long time working on MoD projects and the problem is not that these people are thick or lazy (quite the opposite), rather the whole system is dysfunctional. However don't ask me how to fix it.

Apply LEAN principles and remove the "waste" in the system is the only suggestion I can think of. Treat it like a manufacturing plant.

 

I do like seeing bobbies on the beat, but as long as they keep the crime rate down and have their priorities right I am not bothered how they achieve it. I'd happily see the precept for the police in my council tax go up, if I thought the funds would be used correctly.

[br2975]

O.K. - let the police absorb austerity in the same way other government organisations have had to.

.

Then try and justify paying a beat bobby £30k plus to wander the streets for 8-10hrs per day, chatting to shopkeepers, drinking tea at the Darby & Joan Club and keeping a beady eye on children when the school bell goes.

.

Statistics show how highly unlikely it is for a patrolling 'beat bobby' to actually catch a burglar (or other villain) red handed.

.

Similarly, there are no accurate figures available to quantify how much crime is prevented by a patrolling 'beat bobby'.

.

Edited May 11, 2018 by br2975

[PatB]

I think the idea is less that the beat bobby apprehends huge numbers of miscreants and more that they provide a human and approachable face to what is becoming easier to perceive as some remote, slightly sinister, almost paramilitary organisation. If the Police come to be seen as "The Enemy" rather than an ally of the public, or even irrelevant to a sufficiently large fraction of the population, Dog help civil society.

[Zomboid]

In that case there's an argument that what is essentially public relations is not the best use of a fully equipped and trained officer.

Not that I have a better idea - and moving police stations to out of town industrial estates (as has happened where I live) is far from a PR masterstroke.

 

With policing, as with everything else, we want the gold standard but baulk at the cost...

[Mallard60022]

O.K. - let the police absorb austerity in the same way other government organisations have had to.

.

Then try and justify paying a beat bobby £30k plus to wander the streets for 8-10hrs per day, chatting to shopkeepers, drinking tea at the Darby & Joan Club and keeping a beady eye on children when the school bell goes.

.

Statistics show how highly unlikely it is for a patrolling 'beat bobby' to actually catch a burglar (or other villain) red handed.

.

Similarly, there are no accurate figures available to quantify how much crime is prevented by a patrolling 'beat bobby'.

.

CSOs were supposed to do the local 'beats' but the back up from the actual Police that can arrest and deal with difficult situations, has been reduced dramatically. Also CSO have been reduced as well so locally all the 'naughty people' just know they will not get seen or caught and things are getting worse. I'm glad I do not live in a big City.

Phil

[spikey]

... With policing, as with everything else, we want the gold standard but baulk at the cost...

I think what most folk get bent out of shape about is not so much the cost but the way in which the money seems to be spent. Same with the NHS.

 

I would gladly pay more for a more effective police force, but I would need to be convinced that the money would be spent on what the front line coppers would like to see it spent on.

Edited May 11, 2018 by spikey

[rockershovel]

My main recollection of the “bobby on the beat” is that once he had ambled past, you were unlikely to see another police presence that shift.

[chris p bacon]

O.K. - let the police absorb austerity in the same way other government organisations have had to.

.

Then try and justify paying a beat bobby £30k plus to wander the streets for 8-10hrs per day, chatting to shopkeepers, drinking tea at the Darby & Joan Club and keeping a beady eye on children when the school bell goes.

.

Statistics show how highly unlikely it is for a patrolling 'beat bobby' to actually catch a burglar (or other villain) red handed.

.

Similarly, there are no accurate figures available to quantify how much crime is prevented by a patrolling 'beat bobby'.

.

 

 

In that case there's an argument that what is essentially public relations is not the best use of a fully equipped and trained officer.

 

 

For the public face of the Police we had PCSO's around here, they would do the school visits and generally be the Public face of the Police as well as gather intelligence. Slowly they were diverted to other duties such as Friday night drunks until they were partnered up with an officer in a car.

 

Part of the problem we have is not looking at the source of what the Police deal with, we cut and trim the Police but if you ask a typical officer they say the 2 things that cause them the most work and grief are 'Alcohol & Facebook' A friend in the Police based in Luton reckons if we cut our consumption of alcohol and limited the use of Facebook then half his work would disappear.

[br2975]

 A friend in the Police based in Luton reckons if we cut our consumption of alcohol and limited the use of Facebook then half his work would disappear.

 

Couldn't put it better myself.

[br2975]

............. and moving police stations to out of town industrial estates (as has happened where I live) is far from a PR masterstroke.

 

 

 

 

.

By moving police stations to out of town industrial estates...................by closing local stations......................by removing a front desk facility from those stations you don't close, by reducing the visibility of officers, by charging the public 50p to call 101, . . . . .all takes away the accessibility of police officers, and makes it more difficult for the public to report crime.

.

Not intended to be a PR masterstroke, but a 'statistical' masterstroke ?

[melmerby]

.

By moving police stations to out of town industrial estates...................by closing local stations......................by removing a front desk facility from those stations you don't close, by reducing the visibility of officers, by charging the public 50p to call 101, . . . . .all takes away the accessibility of police officers, and makes it more difficult for the public to report crime.

.

Not intended to be a PR masterstroke, but a 'statistical' masterstroke ?

Where I live the Police station is 12 miles away in a building that looks like a concrete bunker with seemingly no way for the public to enter.

There used to be a "Local" local policeman in a police house. That went long ago, just leaving a local proper Police Station but that closed a few years back leading to the situation we have now.

Even when the Station was "open" they didn't always answer personal calls although you could quite clearly see there were officers inside.

There was a phone outside which connected you to the headquarters 30 miles away.

All police business is now done by car. As far as I can see there are no patrols at all.

 

Keith

Edited May 11, 2018 by melmerby

[Horsetan]

....I'm glad I do not live in a big City.

 

I dunno. I live in the middle of an Orthodox religious district of London, and it's clear to me that lowlifes fear to cross the path of the local Rabbi...or accountant....or banker....or (insert your preferred well-paid white-collar job here).

 

We never get any visits from carol singers (sic) or Hallowe'en trick-or-treaters either.

[10000]

While out for my walk this morning a patrol car followed by 3 vans went up the road. A window cleaner stood there looking absolutely gob smacked commented to me that it was rare to see 1 never mind 4 together.