How do I shunt the Goods shed

[DCB]

Hi all

 

Not sure where this post should be but my father in law built "Haddenhoe" about 8 years ago

My son named it  Haddenhoe   I said what should we call it and he said "Haddenhoe" perhaps I mis heardand

 

Its a pretty standard GW BLT except he added a goods shed on a kick back siding.  It has enough room to easily run round a four coach rake in the loop so over 12 wagons but only just enough room for an Ivatt "mt 2-6-0 to clear the looppoints. There is well over 20 feet between the Haddenhoe baseboard with its cover we call the "Rabbit Hutch" and the shed with junction in so you don't run into the end of the FY when shunting.

 

My problem is understanding how the GW or BR would have shunted the goods shed.

 

Suggestions please?

 

 

 

[davetheroad]

Perhaps

The loco pulls the wagons into the loop then runs around, pulls them back toward your  20feet shed and propels them into the goods spur, uncouples and goes on its way.

The station staff then propel the wagon (s) into the goods shed by hand. I would image there were no more than 2 or 3 wagons in a shunt. If wagons needed picking up they would have been hand propelled into the goods spur.

[Karhedron]

Another alternative is the train arrives at the platform and the loco then runs around and uncouples the Guard's van and parks it somewhere out of the way (probably on the spur from the runaround loop opposite the platform).

 

The loco then returns to its original position and shunts the whole train back beyond the station throat. It then draws forwards into the top siding before backing the train into the goods shed.

 

I have to admit that I cannot think of any stations that had the goods shed on a kick-back like this so I am not 100% sure how it would be worked. Engine sheds on kick-backs seem to have been fairly common but that is rather different.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Karhedron

[melmerby]

 

I have to admit that I cannot think of any stations that had the goods shed on a kick-back like this so I am not 100% sure how it would be worked. Engine sheds on kick-backs seem to have been fairly common but that is rather different.

Many (most?) GWR goods sheds seem to be on a loop, presumably so the loco can reach either end without entering the shed itself (normally forbidden)

 

Keith

[Karhedron]

Actually, most goods shed at branch line termini were on a single-ended siding but facing the station throat. This means that a loco could arrive on the "main" road and then shunt stock into the goods shed (and any other sidings) with a minimum number of moves.

 

The only example I can think of which was on a kick-back (and a loop as it happened) was Tetbury.

[Thunderforge]

What if the train arrived to the top left siding (ie the headshunt to the goods yard), shunted what it needed to collect/deliver, then reverse back to the main line,  and forward into the platofrom loop to run around and sort out it's brake van?

 

It looks like whatever you do you'll be doing a lot of back and forth, and the goods shed headshunt will have to be kept clear for access.

[Guy Rixon]

I suspect that that the train engine would have set the wagons in the long siding and a horse would haul them into the shed. If the traffic at the station is light, the horse is possibly borrowed from the delivery/collection vehicle rather than being a full-time shunting horse. In that case, some of the movement might be pinch bars if the horse is elsewhere at the time of need.

 

Another way to do it is fly shunting with a rope.

 

However, I agree that it's more usual to have the shed accessed from the station throat.

[Thunderforge]

I guess there’s nothing for it but the company will have to shell out for a station pilot!

[AdamsRadial]

Even into the fifties rural stations still had a shunting horse, but that isn't much help to you in the smaller scales.

[The Johnster]

Running around in order to accomplish such moves is part of the fun, and when you factor in that the pickup has to occasionally stand aside to allow other traffic to pass, you have the basis of the operational interest of such a layout.

 

Goods traffic, aside from specialised traffic such as livestock or coal, was handled in 3 different separate fundamental ways, and they affect the position that wagons and vans are stabled in in the sidings.  Firstly, there is 'mileage' traffic, the cheapest and charged by, er, the mileage travelled.  Once the vehicle arrives at it's destination yard, it does not go into the goods shed but is left outside, sometimes on a mileage siding but where space is limited anywhere it can be put, and it will be loaded or unloaded by the recipient or his employees or agents.  Then there is TBCF, To Be Called For, unloaded by the goods depot staff and picked up by the recipient, charged at a higher rate than mileage.  More expensive still is 'Door to Door', collected from the customer's premises in railway vehicles, and delivered to the recipient's address in the same way; more expensive still of course.  Guess which one the railways promoted the most assiduously!

 

On top of this, there is the specialised traffic, milk perhaps, livestock, coal and so on, and perhaps a move to take an empty van from the mileage area to the shed for booked traffic, or a conflat for a container, or a lowfit for a piece of farm machinery or even the squire's Lanchester...

 

Goods work can provide a lot of fun with a bit of imagination, even on my layout with only a single goods siding!

[eastglosmog]

Just had a look at a few GWR branch terminal station plans, and most are as Kathedron says, on single ended sidings accessed from the station throat.  Fairford, Tetbury and Abbotsbury were on a loop.  Woodstock, Princetown and Faringdon were also on loops in early years, but became single ended sidings later, whilst Hemyock was the opposite and Watlington had a loop for many years, although it did not initially or finally. 

Of those I have looked at only one had a kick back siding (without a loop as at Tetbury) to the goods shed - Easton on the Isle of Portland, so unusual but one at least existed.  Easton goods shed did not extend over the siding, though.  However, while I know  that according to received wisdom, locomotives were not supposed to pass through goods sheds, this rule must have been relaxed in later years, as after 1944, Fairford had a siding installed then that could only be accessed by a locomotive passing through the goods shed and there is a photograph of a locomotive on the siding beyond the goods shed and smoke marks on the goods shed entrance and exit to prove it!  Woodstock Goods shed also had the smoke marks to prove locomotives ran through it.

Edited May 23, 2018 by eastglosmog

[The Johnster]

Locos could run though goods sheds, but all movements in goods yards where men may have been working unloading or loading vehicles had to performed with extreme caution and at a very slow speed!  This was in contrast to shunting in sorting yards where things were carried out in a much more cavalier and noisy fashion!  A goods shed usually had the red and white checkered warning 'limited clearance' notices and the fact that the crew could not lean out during some parts of the movement to see where they were going meant that things had to be done with even more circumspection.  

[DCB]

Thanks everyone.  

 

Up until now I have marshalled the train with wagons for the goods shed next to the loco.    I bring the train into the platform, so the signalman can see the tail light.   Set back on the main line. secure 25% of the wagon brakes and the van brake. I could put the Goods shed wagons next to the brake and leave most of the wagons in the platform but if several don't have brake levers both sides that might be problematical  Then loco pulls wagons from the back siding to the platform to provide a headshunt, Loco then collects wagons from the goods shed and attaches wagons for the goods shed and propels the wagons for the shed into the shed.   

The outgoing wagons are then added to the main train and the wagons from the back siding pushed back into the back siding.

Then I bring the train into the platform and run round.  

Brake van placed in the loop

Outgoing wagons are then extracted and any still part full of waiting traffic sorted and incoming wagons are sorted,  not easy if they need the end loading dock in the "Bay"

Finally I push all the outgoing wagons onto the van and set back into the platform before departing.

If I have a powerful loco on the turn I will sometimes pull the empties out with the fulls, 20 odd wagons with a Pannier looks good especially as the loop only takes around 12.

I find sorting the wagons fun but shunting that goods shed tedious, and it does disrupt services at the junction as shunting takes maybe 50% of the time the full size would while traversing the branch is about 2% of what the full size would take.

 

I always thought it was a daft place to put a Goods shed

[Joseph_Pestell]

Even into the fifties rural stations still had a shunting horse, but that isn't much help to you in the smaller scales.

 

You mean you have managed to model a fully working horse in one of the larger scales???

[sharris]

You mean you have managed to model a fully working horse in one of the larger scales???

 

If you were to follow the RH&DR and make 1/3 scale models, you could employ some Falabella horses for shunting. 

[Thunderforge]

Just a thought, if your station is the terminus of a branch line, any goods coming down that branch line should be for stations along it, and the only wagons remaining in the goods train should be destined for this station anyway. So all the wagons should be 'dropped off' and an either the engine returns home with just the brake van or collects a new train which is made up off any loaded outgoing wagons available. Logic, right?

[Siberian Snooper]

Just a thought, if your station is the terminus of a branch line, any goods coming down that branch line should be for stations along it, and the only wagons remaining in the goods train should be destined for this station anyway. So all the wagons should be 'dropped off' and an either the engine returns home with just the brake van or collects a new train which is made up off any loaded outgoing wagons available. Logic, right?

Not necessarily, most places were shunted in one direction only, so you would have outbound traffic and empties from stations shunted on the outward journey plus the loaded wagons for stations shunted on the return trip.

[The Johnster]

Yes, that's right.  My imaginary BLT has parts that are only modelled in my imagination and not actually on the layout, including a timber yard and a cold meat store 'offscene'.  Traffic for these locations, loaded and empty, turns up on the pick up but never gets shunted into the goods siding; it just disappears whence it came at the end of the shunting.  This is a good dodge to use more wagons than your siding(s) have room for.  Pitprops and general merchandise for my offscene colliery also turn up with the pickup and the loco trips them out to the colliery while the rest of the shunting waits for it's return. 

 

A lot of my goods work takes place in my head, and is part of the imagined life of a BLT in South Wales in the 1950s.  I currently have an open goods loaded with a pair of large cable drums for the colliery on my 'spur' road; it came up yesterday but the colliery doesn't want it yet as the job the cable is for, to do with the building of pithead baths as promised by the NCB, has been delayed.  This is the sort of thing that happened on an everyday basis on real railways, and assists my illusion that Cwmdimbath is not a model railway, but a real one that happens to be 1 76ths the size of most real ones.

[Thunderforge]

Haha, that’s the perfect excuse to use any unusual piece of rolling stock; “who ordered that? Must have been a mix up at the depot!”

[chaz]

Did the GWR not make use of capstans? A layout like this would have been much easier to work with one. The loco would only need to position wagons on the spur (after it had collected any wagons ready for the off).

 

Whether you want to try and work a model with one is another matter - they can be problematic.

 

Chaz

[phil gollin]

.

 

What I would do ( I have NO idea if it is prototypical) is leave the goods train on the single track line and take the engine into the goods yard.  Shunt out the Goods shed (using the loop if necessary and place the wagons to be placed back in the outgoing train out of the way (say the bay platform, or even further up the other way on the single line).

 

Then, one can take the wagons for the station yard off the train and (again using the run around as necessary) place them in the yard, including the goods shed. 

 

Not difficult, but blocks the single line rather a lot.

 

.

[The Johnster]

This is pretty much what used to happen on quieter branches worked by the 'one engine in steam' principle, but on any railway carrying more frequent traffic will delay other trains. so the goods yards are likely to be provided with layby sidings and headshunts so that work can be carried on without interfering with the through traiffic.

[dpgibbons]

 

Of those I have looked at only one had a kick back siding (without a loop as at Tetbury) to the goods shed - Easton on the Isle of Portland, so unusual but one at least existed. 

 

Actually Easton goods shed was not on a kick back siding. I think you are assuming the terminus was approached from the north but in fact the station throat was at the south end, with the line thereafter turning through 180 degrees northbound on the way to Weymouth.

[eastglosmog]

Actually Easton goods shed was not on a kick back siding. I think you are assuming the terminus was approached from the north but in fact the station throat was at the south end, with the line thereafter turning through 180 degrees northbound on the way to Weymouth.

You are right about the goods shed siding, but actually I was well aware that the line did a 180deg turn - what I did was assume the plan in the book was with north at the top, as per usual convention, instead of having south at the top!

Anyway, for a real example, try Coleford (GWR) station, which also had a zig-zag line connecting to the S & W station by two reversals.

Edited May 26, 2018 by eastglosmog

[wagonman]

Did the GWR not make use of capstans? A layout like this would have been much easier to work with one. The loco would only need to position wagons on the spur (after it had collected any wagons ready for the off).

 

Whether you want to try and work a model with one is another matter - they can be problematic.

 

Chaz

 

 

Of course they used capstans in places with severely restricted space like Smithfield, but no railway used them at remote country branches with oodles of space