1970’s loco and freight

[samdeacs07]

Need help finding info/pictures on freight trains in the early 1970’s

[samdeacs07]

Building a small layout in my garage for me and my son (5) have built up a collection of BR Blue loco’s and have some mk2 coaches but am struggling to find any photos or info on freight trains in the period, I know there would have been coal/ballast and milk etc and have got a small number of milk wagons but can’t find anything on what wagons were used in conjunction with others to make a modest but prototypical train. Please help!!!

Kind regards

Sam

[DCB]

Sort of a best forgotten era in most people's minds, the early 1970s except of course the West Country where diesel Hydraulics had their brief Indian summer.

 

Mk2 coaches were the prime main line stock of the era, most trains were Mk1s in Blue /Grey with a very few Gresley Buffets survived also in blue/grey.  Parcels were Blue, with Blue Grey Full brakes  plenty of ex GWR Syphons ran in blue in the 1970s

 

Goods trains were as per BR steam era dirty brown, very dirty grey, but even dirtier, shorter, slower and fewer with old 1950s stock predominantly. Pick up goods were just about extinct.  Coal apart from MGR pit to power station was in sharp decline and was concentrated on big depots.   New goods stock was mainly for prestige services, long wheelbase 4 wheelers for airbraked fast freights and bogie container flats, high capacity bogie tanks  while other freights were either Vacuum braked or had no continuous brakes which meant they required brake vans at the back or occasionally with vacuum brakes throughout a few wagons could be marshalled behind the brake van. 

 

By 1970 The prestige vacuum braked fast freights formerly hauled by GWR 47XX  LNER V2s etc  had long since been strangled by 45mph speed limits imposed by derailments caused by bad riding on CWR track and closure of signal boxes meaning no one was around to see overheating  axleboxes smoking so they ran until the axle end burned off and everything piled up. ,About 4 times a week there was a significant freight derailment at times in the 1970s a massive increase over the steam era where the steam hauled ones were limited in theory to 60 but the locos didn't use speedometers  so exceeded this by a considerable margin on occasions (See Firing Days at Saltley)  With a 45  limit there was no point running fully fitted vacuum braked trains so again virtually all freights had a Brake Van.    LMS and LNER brake vans replaced the GWR type as guards objected to having to go out in the cold to operate the brakes while the GWR brake vans were very popular for departmental use.    Ballast was mainly in purpose built hoppers with special Shark ballast plough brake vans.

 

Most passenger trains were DMUs.  In all over Blue.   

Topping and tailing trains with a loco at each end was virtually unheard of in the early 1970s  Departmental and maintenance trains needed loops for the loco to change ends in those days

 

I don't think the sort of trains you would want to run, Pick up goods and short Mk2 sets with blue diesels actually ran in the 1970s unfortunately.  It s why many modellers run early 1950s trains with late 1950s livery stock so we can have 2 coach locals and pick up goods with nice lined green tank engines.

 

 The early 1970s was a seriously depressing time to be a railway enthusiast.  It started to come alive around 1985 with the striking large logo blue with yellow cabs livery, the original silver grey Departmental livery on some class 37s, which shone like silver in the sunlight , the raspberry ripple coaches and the large logo blue, Inter City and Scotrail liveries on the class 47s    That and replacement of DMUs with short loco hauled trains of 5 Mk2s in many areas including scotland is why I model 1985-89 scotland on my garden line with Mk2s  class 37s and 26s , 47s and the inevitable Gronk (08)   [Edit typo Gonk]

Edited June 13, 2018 by DavidCBroad

[Phil Bullock]

Hi Sam

 

Take a look at the freights running on Abbotswood Junction - see link to youtube videos in signature below

 

1971 is our key year but not that much would have changed in to the very early TOPs era

Cheers

 

Phil

[br2975]

Sort of a best forgotten era in most people's minds, the early 1970s except of course the West Country where diesel Hydraulics had their brief Indian summer.

 

Speak for yourself !

.

Looking back, the railway was a reflection of Britain in the early 1970s, not the most attractive place to live and work.

.

But it was my 'era'

.

Contrary to popular belief, and the lack of published photographs, diesel hydraulics operated outside the West Country, and could be seen across the Western Region.

  

Returning to the O.P. . . . . .are you looking at any location, area in particular ?

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I'm sure I and others could help.

 

Brian R

Edited June 7, 2018 by br2975

[br2975]

The Western Region in South Wales reorganised its freight working over a few years in the very late 1960s.

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This was in order to run fewer trains, and free up siding space at several yards.

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Within South Wales a greater number of coal trains ran as block workings from pithead to customer (e.g. steel works, power stations, export etc) reducing marshalling at yards and freeing up space. These trains were predominantly hauled by Type 3 locos (Cl.37)

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There was an increase in longer distance household coal trains from Jersey Marine and Radyr to destinations in the South West, South East, London and the Home Counties which were formed of fitted and unfitted minerals, fitted and unfitted hoppers and generally hauled by Type 4 motive power (Cl.47 and Cl.52 mainly).

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Block oil trains ran from West Wales refineries, predominantly to terminals in the West Midlands, these were generally hauled by pairs of canton Cl.37s.

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MGR (merry go round) coal trains in the same area were hauled by Cl.47s.

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MGR hoppers were also used to convey PFA (Pulverised Fuel Ash) commonly known as 'Fly Ash' from Aberthaw Power Station to unloading sites in Somerset, for use in constructing the M5 motorway. These trains were formed of MGR hoppers and hauled by pairs of Cl.37s.

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Air braked company trains were also on the increase, with several such steel trains running from South Wales to the London area, a proportion of the steel being for Ford's at Dagenham

.

'Pick up' freights did still exist and ran on a daily basis to some locations

e.g.

The Cambrian Coast line, which carried household coal, general goods and explosives from Penrhyndeudraeth.

West Wales branches from Carmarthen saw coal, van loads of animal feedstuffs, general goods, and milk trains.

There were also 'trip workings' serving what was left of the goods yards in the South Wales Valleys.

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With but a little research, it becomes apparent that there were  'old time ' railway operations still persisting in the early 1970s.

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There are a number of contributors on this group who can answer any questions you may have, but start with watching Phil Bullocks short films of 'Abbotswood Junction'

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Brian R

[Phil Bullock]

Informative as always Brian - and thanks for the plug!

 

Funny how the WR used MGRs for flyash whereas the Midland and Eastern used Prestflows. One might ask how much of the WR load remained on arrival.....

 

Brush Veteran captured one of the workings to Bridgwater at Bristol...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/59835095@N02/6265581993/in/album-72157627818608793/

 

Phil

[samdeacs07]

Thanks for the replies,

Well I will run trains of about 6-7 mk2’s but it’s the slight variation I’m looking for so mixing the rakes up a bit wether it be an odd mk1 in the rake.

I’ve seen photos of milk trains being hauled and shunted by 08’s and westerns in cornwall (st erth), I’m in the West Country so will be in and around that area, I may decide to install either a third rail line or an overhead line but not sure, I’ve got a few DMU’s it’s mainly the freight rakes I need help with, as mentioned previously, I’ve got a milk train being put together but would like a ballast train or coal train, for some reason I can’t find much on what wagons would have been in a rake, I don’t particularly want to run a rake of 15+ HEA’s as I’ve seen a lot of these, I’m looking for a mixed bag of beat up wagons!

Kind regards

Sam

[samdeacs07]

Thanks Brian, and Phil, I think I’ve watched abbotswood on you tube but will have another look!

Thanks again!

[br2975]

A lot of 'secondary' services on the Western Region were still formed of Mk.1 stock in the early 1970s

e.g.

West Wales local (loco hauled) services that were not diagrammed for Swindon Cross Country DMUs (Cl.120). 

Cardiff - Bristol-Portsmouth

Cardiff - Bristol-Weymouth

Also certain similar services in Devon and Cornwall featured Mk.1 stock.

.

Coal services would serve household coal depots at places like Exmouth Junction as well as some industries

e.g.

Some china clay dries could still be coal fired at that time. 

.

Check out Meldon Quarry for your ballast trains.

.

Brian R

[samdeacs07]

Looks like I’m going to have to get some mk1’s, watching Phils Abbotwood has giving me a better idea of what to run.

Did the trains change much through the 70’s or can I keep the same trains running just maybe the odd tops number entering service on the loco’s?

Sorry, is Meldon quarry a you tube or RM web channel?

[JohnH]

...I don’t particularly want to run a rake of 15+ HEA’s as I’ve seen a lot of these, I’m looking for a mixed bag of beat up wagons!

Kind regards

Sam

Hi Sam. In your period HBA's (the HEA before recoding in the early 80's after fitting Brunighaus suspension) didn't come in until 1976 or so. HTV's HTO's MCV's MCO's MDV's and MDO's along with HAA's would have all carried coal in the early 70's. In that era many wouldn't have carried any TOPS codes.

[br2975]

Sorry, is Meldon quarry a you tube or RM web channel?

 

Meldon Quarry was the main source of ballast for the Southern Railway / Southern Region 

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With BR boundary reorganisation it fell under Western Region control, and DS234 a USA tank and resident departmental shunter, passed to the Western Region (well that was the theory !)

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Another source of West Country ballast was Stoneycombe.

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Googling or researching these locations may give you an idea of the ballast trains you wish to run.

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Brian R

[samdeacs07]

Thank you, sorry, I will look into both places.

 

Thanks to all who replied, no doubt I’ll need help in the near future!

[The Johnster]

Sam, as well as all the above which is very good advice, the trick to prototypical running is decide what brakes your train has, vacuum or air, and what sort of heating, steam or ETH, in the case of coaching stock, as they are not compatible with each other.  Freight trains could be Class 9, completely unfitted with any automatic brake and restricted to 25mph, or Class 8 or 7, 'part fitted' with a 'fitted head' of automatically braked wagons next to the loco and a string of unfitted ones at the rear.  These trains had to have a guard's brake van, LNER/BR 20ton or LMS 20ton, at the rear of the train in which the guard rode to apply the brake in the van while descending gradients in order to keep the couplings tight and assist with the control of the train.  Block coal, coke, limestone, steel rods or bars on bogie bolsters, and iron ore tipplers and hoppers ran in this form as well.  The Southern Region's Queen Mary brake vans were still about, but their owners chased them up rigorously if one made a break for the border, and there were still a few of their SECR 'pill box' types as well, but they tried their best to get rid of these abominations.

 

Class 6 trains were fully fitted freight trains composed entirely of vacuum or air braked wagons, and ran without a brake van with the guard riding in the rear cab of the loco.  They were mostly block trains, oil, MGR, or chemicals, but the remaining NCL depot to depot traffic consisting of vans, conflats and the few opens still around ran in this form as well, as did 'ordinary' parcels trains which might include long wheelbase 4-wheeled NPCCS.  Milk tanks ran as class 6 as well, as did the new bogie tippler iron ore trains, and of course one could also see block trains of steel bar or rod on bogie bolster 'C' wagons, fully fitted.

 

Class 5 trains were empty coaching stock or multiple units.  Class 4 was express parcels, normally composed entirely bogie stock and scheduled to run at 90 mph, still vacuum fitted in those days.  It also included Freightliner trains and car carriers, both carflats and Cartic 4 sets, and these were air braked.

 

Class 3 was another category of express parcels, but I do not remember it in use on the WR.  Class 2 is an 'ordinary' passenger trains, and could be loco hauled or multiple unit, but you need to be aware of what sort of brakes and heating the loco and stock has to ensure compatibility.  The very early mk 2 coaches were vacuum braked, and many mk1s had been refurbished with air brakes.  Coaches with electric train heating and air conditioning had to have locos equipped with this to haul them, 47s, 55s, 50s, 33s, and, later in the period, 37s, 25s, 27s and 31s.  The WR hydraulics could not operate air braked trains, except for the Westerns, and none could operate ETH or airconditioned stock; the 50s, on the other hand, could not operate vacuum braked or steam heated stock.  On the WR, where they had ostensibly replaced the Westerns when airconditioned stock was introduced on the Bristol and Swansea trains, they very rarely worked to South Wales and were never used on freight traffic, so were not really much of a replacement for Westerns...

 

Class 1 is express passenger, with the comments about compatibility mentioned in the last paragraph applying, but includes Royal Trains and their pilot engines, engines proceeding to the assistance of a failed train, and breakdown trains proceeding to the site of an incident.  This latter meant that a goods brake van could be seen on a class 1 train.

 

Motorail services were at their peak, vacuum braked with carflats or GUVs and air braked with Carflats.  Some carried sleeping cars, and there were some 47s with long range fuel tanks to operate the longer hauls from the West Country to Scotland, some of the heaviest passenger trains in the country.  There was a large traffic in new car distribution using carflats and Cartics, and milk and newspaper trains still ran, the newspapers being sorted and bundled to individual newsagents en route.  Small industries trackside still had had loading docks, traffic being tripped out from the nearest marshalling yard by 08s

 

So long as the loco can operate the brake, and the heating/airco of passenger trains, anything with anything is possible, but for some reason the WR did not use it's 37s for passenger work.  MGR traffic was worked by locos fitted with the special slow control equipment needed to load or unload while moving at (IIRC) 1.8mph; 47s, pairs of 20s nose to nose, and 27s in Scotland. Types were beginning to spread around the country a bit more than they had, the WR's hydraulics being replaced by the useless 25s, and 31s and 50s, but you still had to go to the ECML or the GNR Leeds branch to see Deltics.  'Peaks' were rare west of Cardiff on the SWML and practically unknown west of Margam; I worked one to Llandeilo Jc once but had to bring it back light engine to Canton.  40s or 20s did not penetrate much west of Severn Tunnel Junction, but made it to Cardiff now and then; I do not think either type penetrated to the Southern Region or past Bristol very often!

 

Pullman services were still running, but were finally wiped out by the introduction of the HSTs, better accommodation at standard fare and no booking fee as well as faster and more fuel efficient/cheaper to operate.  Excursions or charters were usually mk1 vacuum braked stock, and these were where the Gresley Buffets used to show up.

 

Ballast traffic was locally organised and tended to be run as class 9, though the dogfish and mermaid wagons were vacuum fitted.  Dogfish ran with a 'shark' plough brake van which shaped the ballast after it had been dropped from the hoppers.  The spoil would be loaded manually into Grampus drop side wagons, which were not vacuum fitted.  'Top and Tailing', with a loco each end of the train, was often used as the train would be divided once in the occupation and both halves worked separately under the verbal or handsignalled direction of the engineer in charge.  Loco hauled trains consisting of rails on Sturgeon flat bogies and the crane to lift them into place would also be involved, and the old rail would be loaded on to 'gane A' bogie flats for removal from the site.  The WR had the 'PWM' series of diesel-electric 204hp shunting engines which could be hauled dead to a site at speed, along with some Booth Rodley deisel-electric self propelled cranes not dissimilar to the Kitmaster construction kit (throw away the bogies and glue an 8 wheeled LNER pacific tender chassis under it) for the same purpose; they earned their keep in the depot during the week, but I don't think other regions did this.  Ballast and engineering work is a subject all of it's own and this is all a very sweeping and generalised guide!

Edited June 7, 2018 by The Johnster

[Rivercider]

Thanks for the replies,

Well I will run trains of about 6-7 mk2’s but it’s the slight variation I’m looking for so mixing the rakes up a bit wether it be an odd mk1 in the rake.

I’ve seen photos of milk trains being hauled and shunted by 08’s and westerns in cornwall (st erth), I’m in the West Country so will be in and around that area, I may decide to install either a third rail line or an overhead line but not sure, I’ve got a few DMU’s it’s mainly the freight rakes I need help with, as mentioned previously, I’ve got a milk train being put together but would like a ballast train or coal train, for some reason I can’t find much on what wagons would have been in a rake, I don’t particularly want to run a rake of 15+ HEA’s as I’ve seen a lot of these, I’m looking for a mixed bag of beat up wagons!

Kind regards

Sam

Regarding coal traffic, particularly in the west country, there was a big change in 1967, up until that date most domestic coal arrived at local yards in 16t mineral wagons. Once the Exmouth Junction CCD (Coal Concentration Depot) opened in 1967 (there was also another CCD at Taunton) coal arrived 21t hopper wagons (later TOPS code HTO and HTV), it meant the closure of all the local coal sidings in the Exeter area. Coal in 16t mins and 21t mins was still conveyed to St Austell and I think Penzance Ponsandane until the early 1980s.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Rivercider

[Rivercider]

Here is Meldon Quarry, it is 1981 but the dogfish hoppers (as sold by Heljan) had been in use there in the early 1970s

Meldon 9/7/81

 

cheers

[Northmoor]

Need help finding info/pictures on freight trains in the early 1970’s

There were a huge number of railway books published in the early-mid 1980s full of photographs of this era.  Ian Allan did a whole series of "Diesels on the XYZ Region", I have most of them and many others from this era.  I would suggest visiting the secondhand book stalls at preserved railways; they are getting an increased amount of donations from (ahem) estates being disposed of, but the railways can barely give these books away now.  I was at the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre recently and you could have filled your car boot with useful books for £100.

[Rivercider]

There were a huge number of railway books published in the early-mid 1980s full of photographs of this era.  Ian Allan did a whole series of "Diesels on the XYZ Region", I have most of them and many others from this era.  I would suggest visiting the secondhand book stalls at preserved railways; they are getting an increased amount of donations from (ahem) estates being disposed of, but the railways can barely give these books away now.  I was at the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre recently and you could have filled your car boot with useful books for £100.

Bradford Barton books 'Diesels on the Devon Main Line', and 'Diesels on Cornwall's Main Line' are two I picked up cheaply that might help you.

As well as the milk trains there was a lot of clay traffic. Loaded highfits of clay out of Devon and Cornwall were sheeted over, and returned empty.

Many trains also had long rakes of vanfits, which conveyed things like bagged animal feed, bagged fertilizer, and bagged sugar beet pulp nuts for animal feed.

 

cheers 

[philwaglab]

Regarding coal traffic, particularly in the west country, there was a big change in 1967, up until that date most domestic coal arrived at local yards in 16t mineral wagons. Once the Exmouth Junction CCD (Coal Concentration Depot) opened in 1967 (there was also another CCD at Taunton) coal arrived 21t hopper wagons (later TOPS code HTO and HTV), it meant the closure of all the local coal sidings in the Exeter area. Coal in 16t mins and 21t mins was still conveyed to St Austell and I think Penzance Ponsandane until the early 1980s.

 

Penzance Ponandane was one of the last yards to handle MCO and MCV wagons.It closed in 1984.

[tractionman]

There were a huge number of railway books published in the early-mid 1980s full of photographs of this era.  Ian Allan did a whole series of "Diesels on the XYZ Region", I have most of them and many others from this era.  I would suggest visiting the secondhand book stalls at preserved railways; they are getting an increased amount of donations from (ahem) estates being disposed of, but the railways can barely give these books away now.  I was at the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre recently and you could have filled your car boot with useful books for £100.

Absolutely, some useful discussion here

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37990-books-for-the-period/

 

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

There were still quite a few Goods trains about in the Kings Cross area in the 70's, 3-4 trains a day transfer goods from Kings Cross Goods to Temple Mills, plus the returns, Temple Mills to Welwyn Garden City, with the grain train (Shredded Wheat ), there was a freight that left Marshmoor most evenings, 4M44, went to Willesden IIRC. Then there was the Whitemoor to Wood Green sand train (worked by Hitchin men) Oil trains worked off of the Western to Royston, there were also car trains (Dagenham to somewhere up north).

 

Still had a daily Kings Cross Goods to Edinburgh, plus return fast goods, (normally class 40 hauled) a Whitemoor to Bounds Green coal train, ( coal and Coke, for Charringtons, next to the closed Palace Gates station), There was a trip working from KX goods to Bounds green, with a couple of wagons for Rowntrees ( spelling ?) Small yard very close to Wood Green tunnel.

 

Last but not least a heavy class 9 train that left Peterborough about 8pm for KX goods, and usually loaded to 600 tons, and with a class 31, should have heard that one roar. Took at least two/three hours to get to London, best bit was from Potters Bar to KX goods (all down hill), but you had to start braking from Wood Green, four miles to get it down to walking pace ???

They were still shunting about at Ashburton Grove, coal, scrap etc. Think that was tripped from KX goods.

 

manna

[The Johnster]

G'Day Folks

 

There were still quite a few Goods trains about in the Kings Cross area in the 70's, 3-4 trains a day transfer goods from Kings Cross Goods to Temple Mills, plus the returns, Temple Mills to Welwyn Garden City, with the grain train (Shredded Wheat ), there was a freight that left Marshmoor most evenings, 4M44, went to Willesden IIRC. Then there was the Whitemoor to Wood Green sand train (worked by Hitchin men) Oil trains worked off of the Western to Royston, there were also car trains (Dagenham to somewhere up north).

 

Still had a daily Kings Cross Goods to Edinburgh, plus return fast goods, (normally class 40 hauled) a Whitemoor to Bounds Green coal train, ( coal and Coke, for Charringtons, next to the closed Palace Gates station), There was a trip working from KX goods to Bounds green, with a couple of wagons for Rowntrees ( spelling ?) Small yard very close to Wood Green tunnel.

 

Last but not least a heavy class 9 train that left Peterborough about 8pm for KX goods, and usually loaded to 600 tons, and with a class 31, should have heard that one roar. Took at least two/three hours to get to London, best bit was from Potters Bar to KX goods (all down hill), but you had to start braking from Wood Green, four miles to get it down to walking pace ???

They were still shunting about at Ashburton Grove, coal, scrap etc. Think that was tripped from KX goods.

 

manna

 

A class 9 on a main line would have been the exception rather than the rule for a train running this sort distance in the 70s.  I would guess that the traffic was mostly minerals, coal being the obvious load.  A lot of local trip work was still class 9, though.

[t-b-g]

In the mid 70s, we still had a pick up goods that used to stop and shunt the yard at Stainforth and Hatfield. Every time I saw it, the loco was a Brush type 2 (Class 31).

 

It looked just like the sort of freight that a steam loco might have dealt with 10 -15 years previously except that nearly all the wagons were of BR construction, with just the odd LMS van or LNER Steel open.

 

The yard was on the up side and on the down side, the colliery sidings still had 16T minerals but the change over to MGR wagons wasn't far away.

 

We also had short trains of Mk 2 carriages as the 3 or 4 coach Hull portion of some trains was detached at Doncaster and worked on to Hull. Again, this was usually a Class 31 but later Class 47s appeared. There were two regulars used and I used to remember the numbers but it is over 40 years ago now! 31409 and 31410 ring a bell somewhere!

 

I hope I am right about them being Mk 2 carriages. When we first arrived in the area they were Mk 1s but I am reasonably sure they changed to more modern stock later.

 

https://br.pinterest.com/pin/736268239055661167/

 

Is hopefully a link to a photo of a Class 47 on a short train of Mk 2 stock but is a bit later than the period being asked about.

 

A little further searching found this one:

 

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3811/9367341561_e4810ef77f_o.jpg

 

Again, not the right period but the right sort of train!

Edited June 9, 2018 by t-b-g

[Enterprisingwestern]

Informative as always Brian - and thanks for the plug!

 

Funny how the WR used MGRs for flyash whereas the Midland and Eastern used Prestflows. One might ask how much of the WR load remained on arrival.....

 

Brush Veteran captured one of the workings to Bridgwater at Bristol...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/59835095@N02/6265581993/in/album-72157627818608793/

 

Phil

 

!00 lines Doctor Abbotswood.

I must start calling them Presflos.

I must start calling them Presflos.

 

Mike.