New layout limited space (Signalling Help Required)

[chuffinghell]

5 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Possibly, but I think it's in the wrong thread.  I don't think we're helping Chuffingell by leading him and his simple 00 gauge Peco layout down a rabbit hole of the fine details of point and signal operating gear.  He's not building in P4 and a good impression rather than an exact representation should be what he's aiming for. Not only will that make life easier for him, but a consistent level of detail will always produce the most satisfying result.

 

A rabbit hole at Warren Branch? fancy that 

 

You're quite right, any rods and/or cables will be dummy ones just to give an overall impression. I just didn't want to stick things on randomly.......if that makes sence

 

Chris 

[chuffinghell]

35 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Independently, but the ground disc could only be pulled off when the points were set correctly. This would most likely be implemented by a plunger in the disc mechanism that hits a bar connected to the tie bar. When the points are "lying normal" the bar would prevent the plunger from moving. When set to crossover, the plunger would align with a slot in the bar and so the signal could move to the correct position.

 

 

Image from gwr.org.uk.

The chain from the balance arm runs around the pulley and connects to the signal wire. You can see the plunger also connected to the balance arm and the flat bar below it (slot not visible) with the adjustable connection to the points tie bar or stretcher bar.

 

That makes sense, thank you Phil 

 

I'm sure I could do something that at least looks plausible (from a distance) with some thin wire and a dummy rod, I could always disguise any missing fine detail with static grass   

 

Chris

[chuffinghell]

I'll probably do something like this if I'd get away with it

 

afterall

Edited May 20, 2019 by chuffinghell

[Martin S-C]

3 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Possibly, but I think it's in the wrong thread.  I don't think we're helping Chuffingell by leading him and his simple 00 gauge Peco layout down a rabbit hole of the fine details of point and signal operating gear.  He's not building in P4 and a good impression rather than an exact representation should be what he's aiming for. Not only will that make life easier for him, but a consistent level of detail will always produce the most satisfying result.

Wrong thread? How do you come to the conclusion that it's possible to wrongly disseminate useful information? What's "wrong" in people learning? Every single piece of prototype information helps everyone, whether they run Hornby Dublo or they are Ian Rice or Geoff Kent.

 

He's not building in P4, correct, he's building in the scale, gauge and standards he enjoys modelling in and you are no authority to tell him what will be easier for him or what he should aim for.

 

And Chris' forum name is Chuffinghell. Even while judging his efforts and telling him what you think is best for him you could do him service of getting his name right.

[chuffinghell]

Had a bit of a ‘play’ obviously I’d use finer wire (or cotton) for the cable and a modelled pulley in lieu of a drawn on one if I decided to go down that route

 

Its only a thought at this stage

[Siberian Snooper]

How the signalling interacts with the points, becomes a bit more complex as each company had their own methods and I can't remember if a company and time period has been mentioned further up the thread.

 

 

[Martin S-C]

GWR circa 1930s IIRC.

[chuffinghell]

21 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

How the signalling interacts with the points, becomes a bit more complex as each company had their own methods and I can't remember if a company and time period has been mentioned further up the thread.

 

 

 

GWR ‘34-‘42 (ish)

 

Due to space restrictions I might have to just ‘plonk’ the ground signals in position but I would like to add the point rodding at the very least

 

I’m just messing about at the moment, I’m thinking that making provisions now would save a lot of swearing later

 

[Siberian Snooper]

The dummy (ground signal needs to go back a few sleepers at the toe end, so that the signal wire can interact with the turnout. The where with all is contained in the red circle.

 

 

The picture is from this site. http://www.gwr.org.uk/pointrodding.html.

 

This piece of apparatus detects that the points have thrown correctly, before allowing the signal to move.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Siberian Snooper
cropped the picture

[chuffinghell]

I'm probably best giving up on that idea then and just adding dummy point rodding

[chuffinghell]

1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said:

The dummy (ground signal needs to go back a few sleepers at the toe end, so that the signal wire can interact with the turnout. The where with all is contained in the red circle.

 

 

The picture is from this site. http://www.gwr.org.uk/pointrodding.html.

 

This piece of apparatus detects that the points have thrown correctly, before allowing the signal to move.

 

 

 

 

When you say move back do you mean further away from the toe end?

 

Sorry for being thick

[Harlequin]

24 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

 

 

When you say move back do you mean further away from the toe end?

 

Sorry for being thick

I think Siberian's example of detection is different to the method I described. You wouldn't have both.

 

Your last masking tape image looked good to me for either method of detection. Ground disc aligned with the tips of the point blades.

 

[chuffinghell]

13 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

I think Siberian's example of detection is different to the method I described. You wouldn't have both.

 

Your last masking tape image looked good to me for either method of detection. Ground disc aligned with the tips of the point blades.

 

 

I wasn't sure if it was two separate methods or both were used 

 

Although I did wonder why you'd need both and I was about to post the question

 

I'm going to have a 'play' with my mock-up and take it from there

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by chuffinghell

[chuffinghell]

Thanks to @Harlequin, @Siberian Snooper and @Martin S-C for your help and continued support

 

Like they said in the 1985 British Railways Intercity advert "we're getting there"

Edited May 21, 2019 by chuffinghell

[Siberian Snooper]

The  toe end of a turnout is the end with the switches (points) and the heel end is the end with the common crossing (frog). By further away is towards the buffer stops.

 

Only one method or the other,  I've not seen  the method that you're using before, can you post a prototype picture please?

 

 

[chuffinghell]

3 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

The  toe end of a turnout is the end with the switches (points) and the heel end is the end with the common crossing (frog). By further away is towards the buffer stops.

 

Only one method or the other,  I've not seen  the method that you're using before, can you post a prototype picture please?

 

 

 

@Harlequin has kindly posted a photo on this thread

 

taken from here

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-groundsigs.html

Edited May 21, 2019 by chuffinghell

[Siberian Snooper]

37 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

 

@Harlequin has kindly posted a photo on this thread

 

taken from here

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-groundsigs.html

 

 

Thanks,  never seen that sort of dummy before!

 

 

[chuffinghell]

On 09/04/2019 at 16:16, imt said:

1 starter signal at the right hand end of the platform and one on the right hand end of the loop.  Shunting across a level crossing and into a tunnel would be unusual

 

I've since ditched the level crossing and ensured there is a sufficient length of track for my longest loco not to have to enter the tunnel while using the run-round loop but I'm still useless when it comes to signalling and I've been putting off asking the question again for over nine months but is this correct?

 

 

Any help would be appreciated, just keep in mind I'm 'thick'

 

 

Apologies in advance if I've got the terminology wrong, I'm happy to be corrected

 

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by chuffinghell

[The Stationmaster]

Right, nice and simple and an easy layout to signal as properly as you might wish to signal it!

 

Judging by past images I am going to assume GWR/Western Region and it is worth making the important point that things changed over the years - so you could have one or two minor choices if (and only IF) you wanted them.  But I'll stick to where you have started and simply put things right for you, not that you are very far from right anyway.  So -

 

1. Remove the signal you have labelled 'Starting' - there is no need for it as it serves no real purpose.

2. Rename the signal you have labelled 'Home' as 'Starting'

3. You need to add the signal you missed out - the Home Signal, at the toe of the loop points applying to trains approaching the station.

4. You might need to add a ground signal adjacent to your new Home Signal - that depends very much on the era you are modelling but you can leave it out for any time up to the early/mid 1960s if you are still modelling the Western.

4.  Your ground signals are both correctly sited.

5.  The piece of line you have labelled 'headshunt' should not be so labelled because technically it is not a headshunt.

 

In summary for somebody who claims to know nothing about signalling i reckon you;'e been doing some careful observation of photos of the real world from the era you are modelling becaiuse you've got it pretty near spot on at the first published attempt.  A real pleasure to see something like that.

[chuffinghell]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Right, nice and simple and an easy layout to signal as properly as you might wish to signal it!

 

Judging by past images I am going to assume GWR/Western Region and it is worth making the important point that things changed over the years - so you could have one or two minor choices if (and only IF) you wanted them.  But I'll stick to where you have started and simply put things right for you, not that you are very far from right anyway.  So -

 

1. Remove the signal you have labelled 'Starting' - there is no need for it as it serves no real purpose.

2. Rename the signal you have labelled 'Home' as 'Starting'

3. You need to add the signal you missed out - the Home Signal, at the toe of the loop points applying to trains approaching the station.

4. You might need to add a ground signal adjacent to your new Home Signal - that depends very much on the era you are modelling but you can leave it out for any time up to the early/mid 1960s if you are still modelling the Western.

4.  Your ground signals are both correctly sited.

5.  The piece of line you have labelled 'headshunt' should not be so labelled because technically it is not a headshunt.

 

In summary for somebody who claims to know nothing about signalling i reckon you;'e been doing some careful observation of photos of the real world from the era you are modelling becaiuse you've got it pretty near spot on at the first published attempt.  A real pleasure to see something like that.

 

Thank you ever so much Mike

 

I am indeed still modelling Western (well trying my best, it's not 100% accurate) but my intention is to get an overall feel of a GWR inspired layout

 

A fictitious location circa 1930's-1940's (so I can get away with the coat of arms and shirtbutton liveries on my coaches)

 

Have I interpreted correctly?

 

 

.........I incorrectly used the term headshunt from a Wikipedia page on a 'terminal headshut' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headshunt I should know better than to trust Wikipedia 

 

Chris

 

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by chuffinghell

[Siberian Snooper]

1 hour ago, chuffinghell said:

 

Thank you ever so much Mike

 

I am indeed still modelling Western (well trying my best, it's not 100% accurate) but my intention is to get an overall feel of a GWR inspired layout

 

A fictitious location circa 1930's-1940's (so I can get away with the coat of arms and shirtbutton liveries on my coaches)

 

Have I interpreted correctly?

 

 

Put your first hand lever, nearest your loop, on the other side, this allows the shunter to operate it without crossing any tracks.

 

 

1 hour ago, chuffinghell said:

 

.........I incorrectly used the term headshunt from a Wikipedia page on a 'terminal headshut' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headshunt I should know better than to trust Wikipedia 

 

Chris

 

 

 

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, chuffinghell said:

 

Thank you ever so much Mike

 

I am indeed still modelling Western (well trying my best, it's not 100% accurate) but my intention is to get an overall feel of a GWR inspired layout

 

A fictitious location circa 1930's-1940's (so I can get away with the coat of arms and shirtbutton liveries on my coaches)

 

Have I interpreted correctly?

 

Chris

 

 

Put signal 3 nearest the track and ground disc 4 outside it so the ground disc "reads to the left" as you approach the points.

 

[chuffinghell]

47 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Put signal 3 nearest the track and ground disc 4 outside it so the ground disc "reads to the left" as you approach the points.

 

Thanks Phil,

 

There was a 50:50 chance of putting on the wrong side of the signal but have I put it the correct side of the track?  although being pre-1960’ I may leave it off?

 

1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Put your first hand lever, nearest your loop, on the other side, this allows the shunter to operate it without crossing any tracks.

I shall do that, thank you I wasn’t thinking
 

Edited February 21, 2020 by chuffinghell

[RJS1977]

I wouldn't normally disagree with Stationmaster, but (depending on the length of the tunnel) I would imagine the home signal to be off-stage the other side of it. Where it is, it means that the loco running round has to enter the branch section, which means withdrawing the token. Fine if the branch is operated one-engine-in-steam. However, if you envisage the branch being busier than this, it means that if a loco is engaged in shunting and needs to run round, a passenger train can't depart from the next station (which may be several miles away) until the run-round move has been completed.

 

So I'd move the home signal off stage, and put a 'Limit of Shunt' notice by the tunnel mouth.

 

[chuffinghell]

17 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

I wouldn't normally disagree with Stationmaster, but (depending on the length of the tunnel) I would imagine the home signal to be off-stage the other side of it. Where it is, it means that the loco running round has to enter the branch section, which means withdrawing the token. Fine if the branch is operated one-engine-in-steam. However, if you envisage the branch being busier than this, it means that if a loco is engaged in shunting and needs to run round, a passenger train can't depart from the next station (which may be several miles away) until the run-round move has been completed.

 

So I'd move the home signal off stage, and put a 'Limit of Shunt' notice by the tunnel mouth.

 

I will be operating as a one engine in steam, so does that mean the home signal is okay where it is?

 

sorry to ask daft questions