New layout limited space (Signalling Help Required)

[chuffinghell]

I’m limited on space so I’m going for an end-to-end layout with a removable (or fold up) fiddle yard

Only a preliminary design at the moment using setrack geometry, I’m currently modifying it as my intention is to use streamline points, more than likely electrofrog

N gauge would have been ideal for the space but with age my eyes aren’t what they used to be

Edited February 21, 2020 by chuffinghell

[Joseph_Pestell]

That look's pretty good.

 

But do you need the door to open back more than 90 degrees? If not, you could get more length for the station by bringing that to the bottom of the plan, with the fiddleyard at the top.

[chuffinghell]

That look's pretty good.

 

But do you need the door to open back more than 90 degrees? If not, you could get more length for the station by bringing that to the bottom of the plan, with the fiddleyard at the top.

Thanks for the positive feedback

 

That’s a good idea although I’ve not drawn the whole room (it’s a multi-functional room which I’ve tried not to takeover)

 

The thoughts behind the folding fiddle yard is it will be out of the way when the room is being used by others.

 

Plus I’ve tried to design it in such a way that if someone forgets I’m in there “playing with my trains” nothing will get damaged if they throw the door open

 

I’ll post up the revised design once it’s finished.

Edited June 30, 2018 by chuffinghell

[jon_1066]

If your fiddle yard is going to be removable why not go with cassettes?  You would just need a sort of trestle contraption to put them on then store them under the layout when not in use.  

[chuffinghell]

If your fiddle yard is going to be removable why not go with cassettes?  You would just need a sort of trestle contraption to put them on then store them under the layout when not in use.

 

Hmmm it’s definitely something to consider, thank you

[chuffinghell]

latest sketch (fiddle yard still under development)

[Zomboid]

I'd try to make the removable section fixed if at all possible. A fold down FY would ideally be avoided too, though I see why that's not possible.

If you ever want to actually operate it then put as few obstacles in your way for doing so as possible.

[chuffinghell]

I'd try to make the removable section fixed if at all possible. A fold down FY would ideally be avoided too, though I see why that's not possible.

If you ever want to actually operate it then put as few obstacles in your way for doing so as possible.

Thanks for the comments

 

Unfortunately, for reasons beyond my control the end section will need to be removable

 

May I ask why a folding fiddle yard should be avoided? the main reason I've gone for a fold up fiddle yard is due to having no where to store a removable one

 

As far as operations go unfortunately what I have in the way of space can't be altered

Edited July 2, 2018 by chuffinghell

[imt]

Having my own problematic restricted area I know your difficulties.  Three things to think about:

 

1. why the two kickbacks in the FY? Presumably for locos. Why not use a Peco LocoLift or two - saved me a lot of space and allowed longer trains.  You could also have another 20 cm and still be clear of the door swing.

2. why not (since you will have one line across the joint) go the whole hog and start the split for the FY using a curved point behind your goods shed (?).  Once you are into soldering track across joints you get used to it - by the time I got to my 24th joint (mine has to strike completely) I was quite good at it!

3. It would (I think) be easier and give more flexible use of space if you used cassettes.  The fan of points wastes space and of itself can cause problems with stock doing "S" bends over them - they derail more easily.

 

The reason you are being warned off is alignment problems.  You need to ensure proper alignment when you fold it down again.  Difficult to use dowels in this case.  Removable would be easier in that you could use dowels and case latches  which would make it steady and readily aligned. I think this is a room in a house so maybe no problems with expansion/contraction/water?

 

(added)

 

What I have seen for alignment of lifting sections is the use of metal (aluminium).  I am looking for photos which I know are somewhere!  The strip was on the fold down section (so it didn't stick out in the way when lifted) and went into the stationary board through a slot which was reinforced by metal angle on the other side.  Absolutely rigid in its effect.

Edited July 2, 2018 by imt

[chuffinghell]

Having my own problematic restricted area I know your difficulties.  Three things to think about:

 

1. why the two kickbacks in the FY? Presumably for locos. Why not use a Peco LocoLift or two - saved me a lot of space and allowed longer trains.  You could also have another 20 cm and still be clear of the door swing.

2. why not (since you will have one line across the joint) go the whole hog and start the split for the FY using a curved point behind your goods shed (?).  Once you are into soldering track across joints you get used to it - by the time I got to my 24th joint (mine has to strike completely) I was quite good at it!

3. It would (I think) be easier and give more flexible use of space if you used cassettes.  The fan of points wastes space and of itself can cause problems with stock doing "S" bends over them - they derail more easily.

 

The reason you are being warned off is alignment problems.  You need to ensure proper alignment when you fold it down again.  Difficult to use dowels in this case.  Removable would be easier in that you could use dowels and case latches  which would make it steady and readily aligned. I think this is a room in a house so maybe no problems with expansion/contraction/water?

 

(added)

 

What I have seen for alignment of lifting sections is the use of metal (aluminium).  I am looking for photos which I know are somewhere!  The strip was on the fold down section (so it didn't stick out in the way when lifted) and went into the stationary board through a slot which was reinforced by metal angle on the other side.  Absolutely rigid in its effect.

 

Many thanks

 

There are too many space restrictions and obstacles for me to list and I've had to make a lot of compromises....nearly gave up at one stage!

 

Yes the kick back are for locos as I wanted to minimise the need for me having to physically move locos about (although the cassette idea opens up a few possibilities)

 

The FY length is dictated by the room height (if I stick to a folding FY) as the baseboard will have to be positioned higher than I'd like (due to a ****** radiator on that wall)

 

I quite like the cassette approach although I'd still have to have something for them to sit on so I'm back to the removable baseboard with trestles that I am unable to store or a fold up one that is short and could cause alignment issues

 

One of the reasons there is only a single track entering the FY is the alignment, oh and because my soldering is awful

 

Yes its in a room in the house........the most awkwardly shaped and smallest one there is

 

I must admit I thought the Peco lift was just for putting locos on the track

 

I've seen the use of aluminum angle for lift out sections at exhibitions, using bulldog clips across the joint for the electrical connection

Edited July 2, 2018 by chuffinghell

[Zomboid]

Thanks for the comments

 

Unfortunately, for reasons beyond my control the end section will need to be removable

 

May I ask why a folding fiddle yard should be avoided? the main reason I've gone for a fold up fiddle yard is due to having no where to store a removable one

 

As far as operations go unfortunately what I have in the way of space can't be altered

I'm just thinking that the more things you have to do to have a running session, the less chance you'll actually do it. Obviously the FY has to hinge, but that means that you'll have to get all your stock out as well as hinge it down. You'll also have to get the end bit out of storage and connect that up. All obstacles that mean you'll be more likely to just stick the TV on...

 

If the end section has to be removed, I would at least design the track such that it's optional to operations, rather than something you have to do every single time.

[chuffinghell]

I'm just thinking that the more things you have to do to have a running session, the less chance you'll actually do it. Obviously the FY has to hinge, but that means that you'll have to get all your stock out as well as hinge it down. You'll also have to get the end bit out of storage and connect that up. All obstacles that mean you'll be more likely to just stick the TV on...

 

If the end section has to be removed, I would at least design the track such that it's optional to operations, rather than something you have to do every single time.

You're quite right about the set up time before playtime being a pain (I stupidly thought you meant physical obstacles oops)

 

I don't mind having to set up before playtime though, I've waited 25 yrs to have a model railway so I can cope with a 20 minute setup

 

My intention is to put all my toys away after playtime otherwise they could (or more likely would) get damaged

[imt]

I agree with Zomboid - the more you have to do to set up, the less likely you are to do it.  Cassettes do take some building BUT when done provide a ready storage system and can turn whole trains round (relatively!) easily.  You can also have loco sized cassettes which enable you to swap ends/directions too.  The aluminium section and bulldog clips is probably the easiest way.  You do need some shielding on the sides if you want to move them away from the FY so things don't drop off (Or very large aluminium angle).  I have seen heavy cardboard stuck on the sides for this purpose.  The cassettes need to be simple and easily manoeuvrable.

 

Now I get that you need to be able to remove the FY.  An alternative is a fold-able table which can rest against the fixed (most out of the way) part of the layout when not needed and which can have cassettes put on it to connect to the feed.  As I say I suggest 2 feeds using a curved point.  This will give you cassettes of the full 1480mm long - which is loco plus 4 coaches and will fit your station.  You NEED you fiddle yard to be a good fit for what your traffic will be. 2 feeds would let you have an empty cassette for outgoing traffic plus a full one for incoming (say) saving mucking about with point changes on a ladder or having to change a single cassette.  By the way - if you end the feeds on the fixed board so the cassettes can align with them then you don't need to cut and solder rail!

 

The cassettes can be stored on shelves above the layout - much easier than moving individual carriages/wagons somewhere when you need to remove the "obstruction". You can keep whole rakes together this way ready for use next time.  Set up for a new session can be quite quick in my experience..

 

Keep thinking outside the box and it will help you get something that works well in your situation.  It is a good space for a nice working layout.  Stick with it!

Edited July 2, 2018 by imt

[chuffinghell]

I agree with Zomboid - the more you have to do to set up, the less likely you are to do it.  Cassettes do take some building BUT when done provide a ready storage system and can turn whole trains round (relatively!) easily.  You can also have loco sized cassettes which enable you to swap ends/directions too.  The aluminium section and bulldog clips is probably the easiest way.  You do need some shielding on the sides if you want to move them away from the FY so things don't drop off (Or very large aluminium angle).  I have seen heavy cardboard stuck on the sides for this purpose.  The cassettes need to be simple and easily manoeuvrable.

 

Now I get that you need to be able to remove the FY.  An alternative is a fold-able table which can rest against the fixed (most out of the way) part of the layout when not needed and which can have cassettes put on it to connect to the feed.  As I say I suggest 2 feeds using a curved point.  This will give you cassettes of the full 1480mm long - which is loco plus 4 coaches and will fit your station.  You NEED you fiddle yard to be a good fit for what your traffic will be. 2 feeds would let you have an empty cassette for outgoing traffic plus a full one for incoming (say) saving mucking about with point changes on a ladder or having to change a single cassette.  By the way - if you end the feeds on the fixed board so the cassettes can align with them then you don't need to cut and solder rail!

 

The cassettes can be stored on shelves above the layout - much easier than moving individual carriages/wagons somewhere when you need to remove the "obstruction". You can keep whole rakes together this way ready for use next time.  Set up for a new session can be quite quick in my experience..

 

Keep thinking outside the box and it will help you get something that works well in your situation.  It is a good space for a nice working layout.  Stick with it!

Thanks for the advice

 

Its definitely something worth considering, I may have to stick with the fold up board but I do like the idea of being able to swap things around

 

I wasn't too keen on physically moving things about but I'm getting the impression that its standard/preferred practice

 

I'm happy with the scenic side of the layout so I'm going to start building the baseboards this week

 

As for the fiddle yard I could always do it as planned for now (just to get me going) and I'm happy for it to change/evolve over time

[bike2steam]

I can fully recommend this book;- https://www.amazon.co.uk/Layouts-Limited-Spaces-Construction-Space-starved/dp/1857940555/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1530539455&sr=1-1&keywords=layouts+for+limited+spaces mmm, I wonder why ??

[chuffinghell]

I can fully recommend this book;- https://www.amazon.co.uk/Layouts-Limited-Spaces-Construction-Space-starved/dp/1857940555/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1530539455&sr=1-1&keywords=layouts+for+limited+spaces mmm, I wonder why ??

I might just take a look at that, thank you

[DCB]

I would lengthen the baseboard right to the door, I did this with my spare bedroom railway for the loco depot headshunt and it worked well.   That would allow a longer more flowing platform road and let the platform move away from the Signal Box.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by DavidCBroad

[sammyboy]

I've also had a look at your plan, and I would have more of the track visible around the curve to the fiddle yard before it reaches the tunnel instead of the tunnel mouth being right next to the level crossing.

 

Good luck with your layout project!

 

Sam

[DCB]

I would lengthen the baseboard right to the door, I did this with my spare bedroom railway for the loco depot headshunt and it worked well.   That would allow a longer more flowing platform road and let the platform move away from the Signal Box.

 

One problem as drawn is that you have to clear the fiddle yard after every session and put everything back before the next. This takes an appreciable amount of time in my case pre loading the outside Branch Terminus with stock takes getting on for ten minutes as does clearing away .  On your proposed layout there is room in the station for 1 train, room in the loop for a second and room in the Tunnel for a third train without affecting the stock in the goods yard. I would build a some cassettes and while keeping the five road Fiddle yard I would have a couple of the FY roads arranged for cassettes so when the session ends you can move the cassettes with stock to a handy shelf, move all the trains to the main layout and lift the FY and clip it to the wall or stow it under the layout or whatever..  Should reduce the time to about a couple of minutes from getting on for ten.

 

I've also had a look at your plan, and I would have more of the track visible around the curve to the fiddle yard before it reaches the tunnel instead of the tunnel mouth being right next to the level crossing.

 

Good luck with your layout project!

 

Sam

I altered the plan to show both the board lengthened to he door and some more open track before the tunnel.  Entry to a tunnel immediately after a level crossing is pretty unlikely, level crossing just by bridge is more likely, see Northallerton ECML for one.   Some trees would be good to hide the cutting behind from the view over the goods yard.

 

 

One problem as drawn is that you have to clear the fiddle yard after every session and put everything back before the next.  With room in the station for 1 train, room in the loop for a second and room in the Tunnel for a third train I would build a some cassettes and while keeping the five road Fiddle yard I would have a couple of the roads arranged for cassettes

Edited July 12, 2018 by DavidCBroad

[RJS1977]

Could you even fit a sliding door?

 

 

I agree with the other comments about the folding fiddle yard. Aberystwyth Mk 2a was built along a 10' long wall in my bedroom in the house I shared when I got my first job. The only trouble was that there was a walk-in cupboard in that wall so the fiddle yard had to be removable/fold up out of the way.

 

It was such a hassle to do so (as I needed to remove all the stock and undo the alignment screws) that I found myself trying to use the cupboard as little as possible.

 

I didn't learn though! Mark 2e in a later house was an L-shaped variant with a lifting approach to the fiddle yard to enable me to access a window area (which included the TV set and the chest of drawers most of my clothes were in). Before long it became apparent that the hinges of the flap couldn't support its weight in the raised position so I ended up crawling underneath several times every day!

[FraserClarke]

Looks like a nice concept. I like David's suggested changes to the headshunt -- gives that slightly 'drifty' feel to the end of a BLT...

 

I wonder if you've thought about the height of the layout? I haven't seen it mentioned?  Could you consider mounting the layout relatively high (say 1.4m+  4'6"+)?  That would offer the potential of usable storage space under the layout (or maybe a workbench?), and enable you to have a fold down (rather than up) fiddle yard (or a flat table to slide cassettes on) -- which might be less intrusive to the domestic view when not in operation?

People have personal preferences on layout height of course, but I think high layouts look good -- as long as you can reach them!

[chuffinghell]

Entry to a tunnel immediately after a level crossing is pretty unlikely

 

I’ll have a look at maybe changing it to a road bridge, although there is one at Bradford-on-Avon:-

Edited July 13, 2018 by chuffinghell

[chuffinghell]

Looks like a nice concept. I like David's suggested changes to the headshunt -- gives that slightly 'drifty' feel to the end of a BLT...

 

I wonder if you've thought about the height of the layout? I haven't seen it mentioned?  Could you consider mounting the layout relatively high (say 1.4m+  4'6"+)?  That would offer the potential of usable storage space under the layout (or maybe a workbench?), and enable you to have a fold down (rather than up) fiddle yard (or a flat table to slide cassettes on) -- which might be less intrusive to the domestic view when not in operation?

People have personal preferences on layout height of course, but I think high layouts look good -- as long as you can reach them!

 

It is mounted quite high due to the position of the radiator

 

I've already made a start on the baseboard building http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/135507-warren-railway-build-has-begun/

 

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by chuffinghell

[chuffinghell]

Could you even fit a sliding door?

 

 

I agree with the other comments about the folding fiddle yard. Aberystwyth Mk 2a was built along a 10' long wall in my bedroom in the house I shared when I got my first job. The only trouble was that there was a walk-in cupboard in that wall so the fiddle yard had to be removable/fold up out of the way.

 

It was such a hassle to do so (as I needed to remove all the stock and undo the alignment screws) that I found myself trying to use the cupboard as little as possible.

 

I didn't learn though! Mark 2e in a later house was an L-shaped variant with a lifting approach to the fiddle yard to enable me to access a window area (which included the TV set and the chest of drawers most of my clothes were in). Before long it became apparent that the hinges of the flap couldn't support its weight in the raised position so I ended up crawling underneath several times every day!

I had thought about a sliding door, however, I still wanted the clear opening to remain the same.

 

I’ve had to make quite a few compromises

Edited July 13, 2018 by chuffinghell

[Chimer]

The need to clear the fold-up board would, for me, be the strongest argument in favour of cassettes rather than a fan of sidings for the FY.  Maybe a couple of sidings for the longest rakes of stock, which can end a session in the station, and then 3 foot-ish cassettes which are reasonably easily handled, and locolifts, to take everything else.

 

Cheers

 

Chris