Yellow ends

[rodent279]

I think this may have been discussed before, so apologies if it has.

The decision to allow trains to run without yellow ends, if the lighting meets the standard, got me thinking.

How come Sarah Siddons was allowed to run without yellow ends on BR in the 1980's?

[Zomboid]

Where did it run on BR?

 

LU clearly have some kind of permitted non compliance, as tube trains don't have yellow ends but still run on the national network to Richmond and Harrow & Wealdstone (the Amersham line I think is LU owned). S stock might comply with the TSI, but Bakerloo line trains certainly don't.

[stewartingram]

I've seen it quoted a number of times, that due to joint running (eg the Met line, and District, etc), "high-ups" had discussions on this. It was proven by tests that the Underground stock , with lights (and some red on the ends), was more visible than yellow ends. So it was to remain so.

 

Stewart

Edited July 26, 2018 by stewartingram

[johnb]

Sarah Siddons has run on the Southern, they modified the electrical arrangements to allow for only one juice rail! As for the regulations permitting this I don't know what they are, but steam locos don't have yellow ends either! Yes I do know they are rather more visible!

 

LU own the Amersham line to just beyond Amersham itself. I believe the actual limit is at Mantles Wood, presumably in a wood somewhere in the middle of the Chilterns.

 

John

[DY444]

Where did it run on BR?

 

LU clearly have some kind of permitted non compliance, as tube trains don't have yellow ends but still run on the national network to Richmond and Harrow & Wealdstone (the Amersham line I think is LU owned). S stock might comply with the TSI, but Bakerloo line trains certainly don't.

 

Sarah Siddons ran several times on the SR, for example:

 

http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/80s/850921lt.htm

[rodent279]

It went as far as Havant and Portsmouth I believe.

[andy stroud]

It helped to run a shuttle service between  Staines and Windsor and Eaton Riverside as part of a rail open day on 10 December 1989. Other locos that took part  were 50 007 and 33 008.

[speedy]

Bear in mind that Metropolitan electric locos were running alongside what became BR trains well before yellow ends were thought of, so I wonder if there is some sort of 'grandfather rights' for LU trains on BR lines?

[wombatofludham]

I imagine that as it was an irregular operation using historic traction on specific dates and routes the risk to lineside workers of not having a yellow panel was assessed as being minimal and it was allowed a derogation for operation.

[steve1]

It helped to run a shuttle service between  Staines and Windsor and Eaton Riverside as part of a rail open day on 10 December 1989. Other locos that took part  were 50 007 and 33 008.

 

Yep and I rode behind it. Also got a look inside at the sparky bits too. Quite frightening!

 

steve

 

PS It's Eton not Eaton

[Southernman46]

And to prove it ..................... the figure hanging out of the sparky bits window was a BR Structure Engineer colleague who was apparently conducting route clearance tests with his forehead !

 

[phil-b259]

I think this may have been discussed before, so apologies if it has.

 

It has been discussed before, but passions got quite heated so the topic got locked. Someone may be able to find it so you can have a read.

 

However as someone who has to work trackside 'dodging' trains (that is working red zone with unassisted lookouts for the professionals), having yellow front ends COMBINED with decent headlights offers the best possible chance of spotting a train in all situations.

 

London Underground trains, while not having yellow do have red fronts (which does much the same job).

 

What should not be permitted in my view is the plain black of TfLs overgrown tube trains for Crossrail, nor TPEs new stock.

 

If operators really must do away with yellow, they should replace it with a nice big block of colour which stands out when you look at it.

[Nearholmer]

Zomboid

 

It’s not that LU has ‘permitted non compliance’ with TSIs, it simply isn’t subject to them.

 

The safety governance over LU is well-described in here http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-underground-safety-certificate-and-safety-authorisation.pdf see particularly p67 in respect of this thread.

 

I guess if TfL, RATP and BVB formed a secret pact to create a giant, pan-European metro, TSis might come into play.

 

Kevin

Edited July 24, 2018 by Nearholmer

[rodent279]

It has been discussed before, but passions got quite heated so the topic got locked. Someone may be able to find it so you can have a read.

 

However as someone who has to work trackside 'dodging' trains (that is working red zone with unassisted lookouts for the professionals), having yellow front ends COMBINED with decent headlights offers the best possible chance of spotting a train in all situations.

 

London Underground trains, while not having yellow do have red fronts (which does much the same job).

 

What should not be permitted in my view is the plain black of TfLs overgrown tube trains for Crossrail, nor TPEs new stock.

 

If operators really must do away with yellow, they should replace it with a nice big block of colour which stands out when you look at it.

I guessed it might have been controversial!

 

Never having worked trackside, I've every sympathy with those who do and whose lives depend on being able to see fast moving trains as soon as possible.

 

I guess Sarah Siddons wouldn't have been moving very fast, but if that's the reason for the exemption, then why aren't slower moving diesels such as 60's, exempt? I just like to understand why it was exempt, I'm not challenging it, or suggesting everything should be exempt. Personally, I like yellow ends.

[russ p]

It has been discussed before, but passions got quite heated so the topic got locked. Someone may be able to find it so you can have a read.

 

However as someone who has to work trackside 'dodging' trains (that is working red zone with unassisted lookouts for the professionals), having yellow front ends COMBINED with decent headlights offers the best possible chance of spotting a train in all situations.

 

London Underground trains, while not having yellow do have red fronts (which does much the same job).

 

What should not be permitted in my view is the plain black of TfLs overgrown tube trains for Crossrail, nor TPEs new stock.

 

If operators really must do away with yellow, they should replace it with a nice big block of colour which stands out when you look at it.

I'm surprised you lads can actually see any trains at the moment!

I have NEVER seen the railway so overgrown as it is at the moment some one high up in network rail wants to be held account for it . It's bloody lethal apart from looking a mess.

You can't see us we can't see you and some poor soul is going to see a train at the last second and have nowhere to go because the cess is so overgrown.

All very well putting up all sorts of signs to make up for contractors lack of training but then lettering the lineside getting so overgrown is unacceptable.

It seems to be a national problem too.

Not been on a saloon lately to question network rail managers about it

Edited July 26, 2018 by russ p

[Edwin_m]

Zomboid

 

It’s not that LU has ‘permitted non compliance’ with TSIs, it simply isn’t subject to them.

 

The safety governance over LU is well-described in here http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-underground-safety-certificate-and-safety-authorisation.pdf see particularly p67 in respect of this thread.

 

I guess if TfL, RATP and BVB formed a secret pact to create a giant, pan-European metro, TSis might come into play.

 

Kevin

TSIs don't mandate yellow ends, otherwise trains would have them across Europe.  It's a national regulation in the UK, probably somewhere in a Group Standard, and since these apply across the network LU stock must have some kind of exemption. 

[Nearholmer]

I was answering Zomboid's very specific point about TSIs, but ......

 

I don't think that it is necessary to have an exemption from RGS to cover this aspect of LU trains running on NR any longer, because the relevant RGS (GM/RT2131) includes the option to use 'suitable and sufficient' risk assessment to prove the case to use other than yellow (Appendix E).

 

When on LU infrastructure, LU trains are, of course, not bound by RG or NR Standards, but by the regime set out in the document that I linked to.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Nearholmer

[phil-b259]

I guessed it might have been controversial!

 

Never having worked trackside, I've every sympathy with those who do and whose lives depend on being able to see fast moving trains as soon as possible.

 

I guess Sarah Siddons wouldn't have been moving very fast, but if that's the reason for the exemption, then why aren't slower moving diesels such as 60's, exempt? I just like to understand why it was exempt, I'm not challenging it, or suggesting everything should be exempt. Personally, I like yellow ends.

There is a big difference between a ‘one off’ charter and having hundreds of trains running round minus yellow (or red for LU) fronts.

 

The inescapable truth is the harder a train is to see, the grater the risk it represents to track workers.

 

If Sarah Siddons has a risk factor of 5 and the hundreds of regular trains with yellow (or other contrasting / blocky coloured ends) have a risk factor of 1 then having Sarah do one run a day doesn’t increase the overall risk. If ever train has the same dark maroon front as Sarah then 5 multiplied by hundreds increases the risk considerably.

Edited July 25, 2018 by phil-b259

[Hinckley_Wolf]

The first of the TPE class 802s, in unbranded grey but with black ends is now running up and down the ECML

 

Photos on WNXX news page (but its subscription)

[andy stroud]

In the same period that Sarah Siddons was running on BR, there would have also been steam hauled specials with no yellow and no headlight.

[Wheatley]

The difference between Sarah Siddons and a steam loco is that the latter has considerably more prescence, makes more noise, and is easier to see and hear coming. Yellow ends were a response to the fatality rates caused by new D&E traction sneaking up on PWay men used to listening for approaching steam trains.

 

As a result steam charters were exempt and remained exempt once "we've always done it like that" gave way to risk assessment, ALARP and Group Standards, but even so were eventually required to carry hi-vi headlights.

[E3109]

I'll throw in the example of Merseyrail.

When the two-car 502 was restored to LMS livery, it ran with yellow ends.

A few short years later and when the broadly similar 503 was restored to LMS livery, it ran without yellow ends.

 

Perhaps the standards and expectations were eased off a little by 1985.

 

I wonder if this was at the insistence of the NRM, rather than BR as the museum owned it (502) at the time.

 

Also I recall the 4-SUB 4732 carrying full yellow ends when it ran on BR as restored* to Southern livery.

 

(*Although the pedant in me would say that 4732 was new to BR rather than SR (I think).)

Edited July 25, 2018 by E3109

[Nearholmer]

I think most of it was built in 1951, although there was a lot of recycling going on so bits are probably a lot older.

 

The green was about right, though, having been based on a ‘strip back to original’ of a 1947 unit and the same nominal colour having continued in use the BR for a long time.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Nearholmer

[royaloak]

The first of the TPE class 802s, in unbranded grey but with black ends is now running up and down the ECML

 

Photos on WNXX news page (but its subscription)

Wait until one of the headlight fails and it is lim8ted to 20mph, then we will see how clever the non yellow end is!

[brianusa]

More TOCs are operating without yellow recently; those more acquainted with the new rules may be able to find a quote but in spite of the disappearing yellow, there have been few incidents.  For years all there was, was a red buffer beam, no headlights as there is now and while a danger exists, most of the casualties are members of the public trespassing as with the recent demise of the three graffittists.

 

Sadly. in this country, many more trespassers seem to succumb much more frequently.

 

Brian.