Yellow ends

[newbryford]

From a non-railwayman view.

 

Headlights are good, yellow ends are good. (Not FYE, but contrasting colours with yellow and something else)

So therefore both must be better.............

 

Or is that too obvious?

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Mike Storey]

I fully respect the views of those regularly working on track. If they say a FYE has a worthwhile additional safety impact, who am I to disagree.

 

But I spent some 11 years undertaking lineside work, in the 1980's and early 1990's, but from an operations viewpoint (so I was not necessarily distracted by doing engineering/technical work) and that difference is material, one could argue. But much of that time was spent ensuring the safety of others so engaged, or in judging the efficacy of point-winding/pumping, or flagging or protection of the line, pre-planned works, by myself.

 

Most of that period was spent on the SR third rail, trying to spot very quiet third rail units, or Class 73's, interrupted only by the odd Class 33 or other diesel. Most, originally, bright yellow cab ends, certainly of EMU's, were pretty well covered in dead, black flies (other insects are available) or other assorted detritus. Carriage washers could not effectively clean these ends (as designed in those days) and manual cleaning concentrated on the windscreens only. Once single searchlights were introduced, spotting approaching trains became a doddle, particularly at night (when most of my involvement took place), but it could not be relied upon, because introduction was gradual.

 

I also do remember having to traverse a section of the ECML on foot, between Hornsey and Ferme Park, in daylight to attend a site survey, without a lookout as such, just a "responsible person" (my PTS had expired by then - it was deemed unsafe to re-certify anybody who did not go trackside on a regular basis as part of their job, a sensible decision in my view, but several senior managers objected at the time), where all trains had full yellow ends and headlights. I nearly sh8t myself.

 

I see the need for both, maybe, but bright lights beat any faded yellow paint, any day of the week. But as has been said, what was the imperative for no longer requiring the latter?

[E3109]

Just as a matter of interest, I passed Willesden Depot yesterday and the new units on site had orange front ends.

 

Think they're class 710, but not certain.

The chromed LT roundel on the front was a nice touch.

Edited July 28, 2018 by E3109

[E3109]

Mike, your post is noteworthy and certainly adds substance to this debate but to this day, I've yet to see a yellow end that's been entirely obliterated by insects.

Don't get me wrong, living as I do on the WCML I well recall 87s absolutely covered in the things but even so the effect on the yellow paint was negligible and I'd say the same goes for the current order (221/390).

 

On balance, as a PTS holder myself I prefer yellow ends on traction units.

Headlights of course add to trackside safety exponentially but why can't we have both?

 

Given that this country is going the same way as the United States regarding litigation, perhaps it's only a matter of time before the family of someone who perishes on a level crossing will sue due to the absence of yellow paint.

Edited July 28, 2018 by E3109

[jjb1970]

Given that this country is going the same way as the United States regarding litigation, perhaps it's only a matter of time before the family of someone who perishes on a level crossing will sue due to the absence of yellow paint.

 

That's one of the things that has struck me about this situation. Who would want to stand in front of a court and defend this in the aftermath of a death when there is a very smart barrister turning the thumb screws asking why such a basic and cheap risk mitigation measure as splashing some yellow pain or vinyl on the nose had been abandoned in order to make a train look nicer and with a mountain of reports and opinions to support their case that yellow ends (or at least high visibility/contrast colours) improve the visibility of approaching trains and might have avoided a fatality? Good luck on that one.

 

In general I think litigation gets a bad rap, it's easy to point to nuisance and silly cases (although some of the famous silly cases are not actually silly if you dig into them, for example the infamous McDonalds coffee case) but if a government, corporation or individual behaves negligently or irresponsibly and ends up injuring or killing people then they should be held to account.

[The Stationmaster]

Mike, your post is noteworthy and certainly adds substance to this debate but to this day, I've yet to see a yellow end that's been entirely obliterated by insects.

Don't get me wrong, living as I do on the WCML I well recall 87s absolutely covered in the things but even so the effect on the yellow paint was negligible and I'd say the same goes for the current order (221/390).

 

On balance, as a PTS holder myself I prefer yellow ends on traction units.

Headlights of course add to trackside safety exponentially but why can't we have both?

 

Given that this country is going the same way as the United States regarding litigation, perhaps it's only a matter of time before the family of someone who perishes on a level crossing will sue due to the absence of yellow paint.

 

They used to be quite common and in fact BR Research carried out several experiments in the 1960s to see if there was a solution to the problem.  They reached the conclusion that the only answer was regular washing using chemicals (I forget what they recommended as the chemical) with a water pre-wet and rinse.  Their daftest idea was to use a coating akin to Velcro which the thought would stop the insects splatting on the yellow paint - but they got impaled on the 'velcro' instead and the results were even worse causing the end to look more black that yellow after a couple of summer days in traffic.  i wonder if the photos were kept in some BR archive somewhere although they don't seem to have been released for public consumption although those of us attending a particular course at derby got to see them.

[rodent279]

Just a thought-mention had been made of the difficulty of judging speed &/+ distance from a headlight alone, compared to the flickering effect of a yellow panel, and the heightened contrast of a yellow panel against certain backgrounds. Would a flashing headlight help? Not necessarily a fast flash-a slow, repetitive flash, say 0.5 Hz, or a dual rate flash. Or even a flashing and a steady headlight.

For the record, I can't see why a yellow/orange end shouldn't be designed into a livery. As others have said, it's not like you're not going to paint the end anyway. My vote lies firmly with those who have to put their life on the line, literally, every day.

Edited July 28, 2018 by rodent279

[Reorte]

I'd have thought a flashing headlight of any sort would make it even harder to judge speed and distance. It certainly does on those flashing bike headlights that seem very popular now and which I find badly distracting, although that makes them easier to spot in the first place.

[The Stationmaster]

Just a thought-mention had been made of the difficulty of judging speed &/> distance from a headlight alone, compared to the flickering effect of a yellow panel, and the heightened contrast of a yellow panel against certain backgrounds. Would a flashing headlight help? Not necessarily a fast flash-a slow, repetitive flash, say 0.5 Hz, or a dual rate flash. Or even a flashing and a steady headlight.

For the record, I can't see why a yellow/orange end shouldn't be designed into a livery. As others have said, it's not like you're not going to paint the end anyway. My vote lies firmly with those who have to put their life on the line, literally, every day.

 

One was tried on a Deltic before the decision was made to standardise on a yellow panel.  I don't know the flash rate but apparently trials concluded that the yellow panel was more noticeable overall.

[Trog]

Just had a thought with electric cars there has been the suggestion that they should include a sound system, so that pedestrians etc are warned of their otherwise near silent approach.

 

Perhaps trains could be fitted with something similar. As the sound of a steam engine has been suggested as a good warning, and a lot of people like the sound how about a nice big rotary knob on the drivers desk labelled..   Black Five, Coronation, King Arthur, A4, Merchant Navy, Super D, etc. The sound could be slaved to the power setting/speedo of the train so you could tell if the approaching train was pulling away, working hard to accelerate, or just coasting along.

[Ncarter2]

Trains that only run on high speed lines might be another matter, but it's unlikely that staff safety on those routes would rely on having to look out for approaching trains anyway.

Depending on what you class as high speed but in this country track workers are not permitted on the line if the maximum speed exceeds 125mph and trains are still running so looking out for trains is not a problem.

Currently on HS1 my understanding is the line gets shut for 30-40min during the day for inspection etc so the workers are no exposed to trains running in excess of 125mph.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Ncarter2

[The Stationmaster]

Depending on what you class as high speed but in this country track workers are not permitted on the line if the maximum speed exceeds 125mph and trains are still running so looking out for trains is not a problem.

Currently on HS1 my understanding is the line gets shut for 30-40min during the day for inspection etc so the workers are no exposed to trains running in excess of 125mph.

 

Unless it has changed the official classification of 'high speed' in BR times was a line speed of 100mph or greater.  Looking out for trains where the line speed is 125 mph isn't necessarily simple where there is curvature and that is why Advanced Lookouts originally made an appearance in the Rule Book.

[russ p]

Flashing headlights would be bloody awful when driving if they were mandatory an aspirin dispenser on the drivers desk would also have to be!

[caradoc]

In my 38 years railway service I never worked on the track, or was ever authorised to go on the track, so I defer absolutely to those who do; If they say yellow ends help them, they should stay. However regarding litigation form members of the public, are we seriously saying that non railway staff on the line when a train is approaching (a rare event, in theory confined to footpath crossings without warning equipment or phones) would not see a train with a headlight but would see one with a yellow front ?

[Fat Controller]

Depending on what you class as high speed but in this country track workers are not permitted on the line if the maximum speed exceeds 125mph and trains are still running so looking out for trains is not a problem.

Currently on HS1 my understanding is the line gets shut for 30-40min during the day for inspection etc so the workers are no exposed to trains running in excess of 125mph.

Your understanding of HS1 is correct, I think. It draws on the long-standing 'Periode Blanche' of SNCF, where there is a rolling block of about 1 hour on a given route i.e. A to B blocked from 11:00 :12:00, B to C 12:00 to 13:00, C to D 13:00 to 14:00. The times are usually different on 'Paire' /'Impaire'( 'Up/Down') running lines- this led to a tragic accident in the Morvan region a few years ago.

A small group of track-workers were planned to take advantage of the 'Periode Blanche' on the LGV Sud-Est. Unfortunately, they took a wrong turning, arriving on the work-site from the opposite direction; upon arrival, they informed the signaller they were accessing the track at the pre-arranged time. Unbeknown to them, they were on the side which didn't have a block on them: three were mown down by a TGV at line speed, and the fourth suffered severe psychological damage.

SNCF subsequently affixed plates to each access point, with the name, number and location, along with whether it is on the 'Paire' or 'Impaire' line. I am not aware of any subsequent events of a similar nature.

[Ncarter2]

Unless it has changed the official classification of 'high speed' in BR times was a line speed of 100mph or greater. Looking out for trains where the line speed is 125 mph isn't necessarily simple where there is curvature and that is why Advanced Lookouts originally made an appearance in the Rule Book.

I do believe there is now high speed and very high speed being branded about in some documents.

I remember when the west Coast was 110mph and sections with some curves being less. Of course these line speeds still stand for non tilt trains but when calculating sighting you must always use the highest permissible speed. This caused headaches for us as there was a few areas that could no longer be worked in with lookouts due to speed increase and so other systems got introduced like the LOWS system. I must say it was a strange feeling not being able to see your distant lookout.

[Reorte]

In my 38 years railway service I never worked on the track, or was ever authorised to go on the track, so I defer absolutely to those who do; If they say yellow ends help them, they should stay. However regarding litigation form members of the public, are we seriously saying that non railway staff on the line when a train is approaching (a rare event, in theory confined to footpath crossings without warning equipment or phones) would not see a train with a headlight but would see one with a yellow front ?

In bright sun, possibly not.

[jjb1970]

North America has used flashing/oscillating lights to improve visibility such as mars lights which have been in use for many many decades..

[Mike Storey]

They used to be quite common and in fact BR Research carried out several experiments in the 1960s to see if there was a solution to the problem.  They reached the conclusion that the only answer was regular washing using chemicals (I forget what they recommended as the chemical) with a water pre-wet and rinse.  Their daftest idea was to use a coating akin to Velcro which the thought would stop the insects splatting on the yellow paint - but they got impaled on the 'velcro' instead and the results were even worse causing the end to look more black that yellow after a couple of summer days in traffic.  i wonder if the photos were kept in some BR archive somewhere although they don't seem to have been released for public consumption although those of us attending a particular course at derby got to see them.

 

If my increasingly faulty memory serves, it would have been DP12, which we were being encouraged to use in place of the acidic, and highly corrosive Exmover. The secondary problem on the 3rd rail SR, after insects, was brake block dust, even on the yellow ends.

 

Exmover, which was used in carriage washing machines (which barely touched most cab ends), but also on "hand-bashes", where staff were required to wear long rubber gauntlets, full protective garments and use very long handled brushes to apply the gunge (a bit like thick wallpaper paste), leave it for a while, and then rinse it off using hoses and then send it through a CWM before it dried. It worked and worked well, but could easily fade the paint, including the yellow ends, if the solution mix was even slightly strong.

 

DP12 was a general purpose cleaner which was a lot safer and did not fade paint (although it could create the same streak marks as Exmover, if not rinsed soon enough) but it could not remove brake block dust, and was not as effective on insect remains. Bit of a dilemma for one C. Green esq, when the new fangled NSE paint jobbie arrived.....

 

Of course, disc brakes removed one of those problems, so not the same issue today.

['CHARD]

Given what the relevant RGS says, see one of my earlier posts, it would be exceedingly interesting to see the risk assessment that was used to make the case for not-yellow. Does anyone know if the cases are in the public domain?

 

These won't be in the public domain, AFAIK.  I work closely with colleagues who provide Vehicle Acceptance and Conformance Certification.  The manufacturer provides vehicle data which builds a 'progressive assurance' file on the rolling stock which is assessed against ROGS standards and TSIs.  The process is evidence-based, with parameters for brightness of lights and so forth.  If the accepted standards are demonstrated to have been achieved, then the type gets its ticket.  There is no 'style over substance' arbitration involved.  The vehicle assurance documents are held by the Acceptance Body and the OEM, and are not in the public domain as neither are publically accountable bodies in the sense that TfL or ORR might be.

 

There is (to me at least) one palpable irony in the recent history of livery certification.  The Network Rail yellow locomotives including Class 37s, 73s, 31s etc (and DVTs), that wear NR yellow as a livery colour, and as part of their livery diagram were stipulated FYE, are in fact painted a different yellow on the defined full yellow end, because NR livery yellow is not actually warning panel yellow (by Pantone or BS reference).  This is pretty well imperceptible to the human eye.  To me this is bureaucracy and hair-splitting gone insane, but it does demonstrate that the regulations are applied to the letter.

 

Indeed. I get the suspicion that it's a case of the graphic designers convincing a bunch of desk-bound managers/directors who have no experience of being trackside, and no understanding of practical safety. It doesn't help that the people to whom the visibility of trains matters most aren't their employees.

 

Jim

 

It's not necessarily the graphic designers convincing anyone.  They work within the parameters they are given.  If yellow ends aren't mandatory, and the TOC briefs its design house accurately, then they will provide a rolling stock livery to meet the brief provided to them.

 

I’d sooner see a yellow end than a black one.

 

I think, with respect, the point is we'd all like to see every front end. 

[rockershovel]

From a purely aesthetic viewpoint, I always liked the “yellow belly” livery on the HST125, very striking. Same with the introduction of yellow fronts on green diesels, a pleasing contrast. The blue was beyond saving, I’m afraid...

[phil-b259]

Your understanding of HS1 is correct, I think. It draws on the long-standing 'Periode Blanche' of SNCF, where there is a rolling block of about 1 hour on a given route i.e. A to B blocked from 11:00 :12:00, B to C 12:00 to 13:00, C to D 13:00 to 14:00. The times are usually different on 'Paire' /'Impaire'( 'Up/Down') running lines- this led to a tragic accident in the Morvan region a few years ago.

A small group of track-workers were planned to take advantage of the 'Periode Blanche' on the LGV Sud-Est. Unfortunately, they took a wrong turning, arriving on the work-site from the opposite direction; upon arrival, they informed the signaller they were accessing the track at the pre-arranged time. Unbeknown to them, they were on the side which didn't have a block on them: three were mown down by a TGV at line speed, and the fourth suffered severe psychological damage.

SNCF subsequently affixed plates to each access point, with the name, number and location, along with whether it is on the 'Paire' or 'Impaire' line. I am not aware of any subsequent events of a similar nature.

The other thing that can be done on HS1 (or any line equipped with in cab signalling systems) is to put in place a temporary speed restriction which can be garuntee to be complied with and thus bring speeds to within the perimeters where staff can work on / in close proximity to the open line.

 

On the conventional network it is far less easy - if a TSR is applied then signallers are required to brief all drivers manually until speed restriction boards can be provided while the signaling itself only allows the option cautioning past red signals should garunteed compliance be required. This is why any system of lookouts must be set up using the published line speed even if a TSR is in force.

[E3109]

Mike (Storey)

 

We used something referred to as DP17, which I imagine was rather similar to the DP12 you mentioned.

If memory serves me correctly it was the BR cat number.

I can still smell it now! It resembled water, although more viscous.

It cleaned pretty much anything, and seem to recall that it wasn't too harsh.

[jjb1970]

Something to remember in terms of product certification is that certification bodies are not free agents and it comes down to a binary decision - something is either compliant or it isn't. Those making the decision aren't offering an opinion on whether something is a good idea, saying they agree with something (or otherwise) or in any other way applying their own views on things. It is a matter of reviewing a product against applicable standards and regulations and assessing whether or not it meets those requirements. If the standards or regulations are rubbish then you'll get some odd approvals but it's not the job of whoever does the approval to decide whether standards are good or bad. I worked in a marine classification society for a few years doing engine and shaftline approvals and it didn't matter how many times I told people I wasn't certifying that an engine was "good" or of high quality or anything else, simply that it met the applicable class rules and statutory requirements I'd still get comments to the effect of how did XY certificate such a rubbish engine?

Edited July 29, 2018 by jjb1970

[Mike Storey]

Mike (Storey)

 

We used something referred to as DP17, which I imagine was rather similar to the DP12 you mentioned.

If memory serves me correctly it was the BR cat number.

I can still smell it now! It resembled water, although more viscous.

It cleaned pretty much anything, and seem to recall that it wasn't too harsh.

 

You may well be right about the number. I know DP12 was used for lots of cleaning tasks (it was pink IIRC), but DP17 could be the one that replaced Exmover. I would have known then (it was my job to know, being in charge of Lovers Walk carriage cleaners at the time), but a long time has passed.......