Wentworth Junction

[Michael Edge]

Nothing as fancy as all that, the plywood just bends where the gradient changes. Looking at photos of what it was really like my baseboards are far too flat anyway, the branch was badly affected by mining subsidence which was the reason for the adjustable wiring portals.

[Michael Edge]

Yesterday's progress with tracklaying

 

 

All the pointwork now in place, copperclad sleepers glued down at baseboard joint. The old Hornby Dublo lowmac is my standard track checking vehicle, the long wheelbase and small wheels pick out most faults and it's very easy to propel along with one finger. The BoBol in the distance (stopped at the bottom of the 1 in 40) is very free rolling and is used to check the alignment, again finger propelled. Various steel weights lying around are used to hold the track down until the No More Nails goes off. Temperature in the shed yesterday afternoon was 31, 23.5 just now so I'll wait until this afternoon to continue.

[Paul_sterling]

1 minute ago, Michael Edge said:

[snip] Yesterday's progress with tracklaying

 

 

All the pointwork now in place, copperclad sleepers glued down at baseboard joint. The old Hornby Dublo lowmac is my standard track checking vehicle, the long wheelbase and small wheels pick out most faults and it's very easy to propel along with one finger. The BoBol in the distance (stopped at the bottom of the 1 in 40) is very free rolling and is used to check the alignment, again finger propelled. Various steel weights lying around are used to hold the track down until the No More Nails goes off. Temperature in the shed yesterday afternoon was 31, 23.5 just now so I'll wait until this afternoon to continue.

 

Hi Michael,

 

An interesting choice to use no more nails and glue the track down, I'd heard of people using PVA in the past, but i've just stuck with track pins. I'll give your method a go, so thank you for the heads up.

 

Cheers, Paul. 

[Michael Edge]

I've always used glue for tracklaying, Evostik for a long time which made for some "interesting" experience when working in a small loft space all day. All the track on Carlisle is stuck down with No More Nails (or Ni Clous ni Vis in France) and little or nothing has moved in nine years now. Ordinary PVA works well with wooden sleepers but not so well with plastic base track, I did have some concerns with NMN and the new Peco track as there is a large recess under each sleeper but nothing has moved yet despite the temperature in the shed rising well into the 40s during the recent heatwaves.

I apply the glue to the underside of each sleeper, then drop the track down on a previously marked line (one one or both rails - not the centre line). It can be moved a little for a short while to smooth out the curves or any kinks, then I run a vehicle over it (the BoBol in the last photo) to check alignment before weighting down for a couple of hours. Once the track is painted and ballasted it won't move at all - as long as it is done in fairly hot conditions. Laying track at low temperatures is asking for buckles as soon as it gets hotter, much the same as full size practice. The curves will also get some cant added when it's ballasted, slide a knife under the outside of the sleepers, add packing and ballast. I did this with the curve of the main running lines on Herculaneum Dock and it does make a noticeable difference, the reverse curve up the hill from Wentworth Junction should show this up even better.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

I've always used glue for tracklaying, Evostik for a long time which made for some "interesting" experience when working in a small loft space all day. All the track on Carlisle is stuck down with No More Nails (or Ni Clous ni Vis in France) and little or nothing has moved in nine years now. Ordinary PVA works well with wooden sleepers but not so well with plastic base track, I did have some concerns with NMN and the new Peco track as there is a large recess under each sleeper but nothing has moved yet despite the temperature in the shed rising well into the 40s during the recent heatwaves.

I apply the glue to the underside of each sleeper, then drop the track down on a previously marked line (one one or both rails - not the centre line). It can be moved a little for a short while to smooth out the curves or any kinks, then I run a vehicle over it (the BoBol in the last photo) to check alignment before weighting down for a couple of hours. Once the track is painted and ballasted it won't move at all - as long as it is done in fairly hot conditions. Laying track at low temperatures is asking for buckles as soon as it gets hotter, much the same as full size practice. The curves will also get some cant added when it's ballasted, slide a knife under the outside of the sleepers, add packing and ballast. I did this with the curve of the main running lines on Herculaneum Dock and it does make a noticeable difference, the reverse curve up the hill from Wentworth Junction should show this up even better.

I use a water-based impact adhesive, which avoids the conventional Evo-Stik problems. I might have a look at NMN though, as the ability to move the track around before the adhesive grabs sounds good.

 

I've wondered about the recess in more recent Peco sleepers too but so far everything seems to be holding in place.

 

Nickel-silver track will expand by about 0.5mm per yard over a range of 30 deg C so I leave expansion gaps when laying it - longer or shorter depending on the temperature at the time.

Edited August 2, 2019 by St Enodoc
silver, not sliver!

[Paul_sterling]

Thanks Michael,

 

I'm quite lucky in respect of my railway being in a basement, so its very temperature neutral, with little change between summer and winter. It has its own drawbacks mind, but I'll not bore people with the details, but it does at least mean I don't generally have to worry about buckling. That being said, the home I grew up in, I had the railway in the loft there, and only once did I ever have trouble with a single piece of flexitrack having shifted 1/2" to one side through expansion, the loft got heated from the house below in winter, and got heated by the sun in summer, so didn't see too much differential of temperature either. 

 

Thanks, Paul. 

[Michael Edge]

John

I don't leave any gaps, the rail is effectively locked in the chairs once it's all painted and ballasted - it gets flooded with PVA at this point anyway. I don't know where the expansion/contraction goes but it doesn't cause any problems if the track is laid in hot conditions. On the rare occasions we've had buckles on Carlisle (none on all the track I've laid by the way) I've cut the rail to release the stress and stuck the sleepers down again with superglue - works so far.

Going back into the dark ages were you at Barrow with Leeds Victoria in the late 70s when it was sliding down the polished dance floor? Over the weekend I successively cut about 5-6mm out of each rail at one of the baseboard joints but the gaps never re-appeared in the rest of the layout's lifetime.

[Barry O]

Yes it was an interesting weekend in Barrow.....

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

John

I don't leave any gaps, the rail is effectively locked in the chairs once it's all painted and ballasted - it gets flooded with PVA at this point anyway. I don't know where the expansion/contraction goes but it doesn't cause any problems if the track is laid in hot conditions. On the rare occasions we've had buckles on Carlisle (none on all the track I've laid by the way) I've cut the rail to release the stress and stuck the sleepers down again with superglue - works so far.

Going back into the dark ages were you at Barrow with Leeds Victoria in the late 70s when it was sliding down the polished dance floor? Over the weekend I successively cut about 5-6mm out of each rail at one of the baseboard joints but the gaps never re-appeared in the rest of the layout's lifetime.

 

5 hours ago, Barry O said:

Yes it was an interesting weekend in Barrow.....

If everything is fixed solidly the force is reacted through the chairs, sleepers, paint, ballast, trackbed and baseboards. If you lay the track when it's hot then all the subsequent forces in the rails will be tensile, which obviously won't cause buckling. The working temperature in my railway room is about 20 degrees but when the a/c is off it will range from about 10 to 30.

 

I don't think I was ever lucky enough to go to Barrow, either as an exhibitor or a visitor...

[Michael Edge]

It was definitely interesting.....

My shed gets a lot colder than that in a Yorkshire winter but I haven't had any problems with Herculaneum Dock in there and the even older bits of Cwmafon in there seem OK.

[Penrhos1920]

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

 

If everything is fixed solidly the force is reacted through the chairs, sleepers, paint, ballast, trackbed and baseboards. If you lay the track when it's hot then all the subsequent forces in the rails will be tensile, which obviously won't cause buckling. The working temperature in my railway room is about 20 degrees but when the a/c is off it will range from about 10 to 30.

 

We had rails popping off the copperclad sleepers in the cold.  The track was built in the house on the board and transferred to the layout.  It got really cold outside, down to -10 that winter and the contraction of the rail meant it tried to straighten out the curves.  Then in the summer it got to over 35 so some gaps closed up and caused shorts.

[Michael Edge]

I've not had that (yet!), I try to avoid section gaps in the plastic based track and lock the rail in the chairs with superglue when unavoidable.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

On the big trainset which is currently in the garage, there is some pointwork with soldered heel and toe and unsecured middle bits, 40 plus temperatures play havoc with it.

 

Mike.

[Michael Edge]

It doesn't get to 40 in Yorkshire, although we did see 37 last week.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

It's the consistently high temperatures and humidity wot does for model railways hereabouts, desperately need an air conditioned man cave, or an underground room as per Ron Heggs!

 

Mike.

[Michael Edge]

Having seen all these comments and theories about track expansion/stability etc. I thought I'd take a photo of one of the sections of Cwmafon in the shed. Apart from being let out occasionally for exhibitions this board has lived in this (or the previous shed in the same position) for the last 30 years; it was built sometime in the 80s, nearly all the track is nickel silver rail soldered to pcb sleepers (thee's some more recent plastic based track at the bottom) and none of it has moved. It was laid in warm/hot conditions and ballasted with stone and PVA glue. The present fiddle yard had to be laid in less than ideal conditions because of the need to get it ready for a January exhibition and there have been one or two buckles in this, it is also not ballasted, just glued down with No More Nails. A much older part of Cwmafon, probably built about 1978 did produce a bizarre problem - an entire turnout lifted out of the ballast one winter (when the layout was in the shed) and would not go back into the sleeper marks. After bringing the turnout into the house for a few days it fitted back in, glued down and re-connected it's still there and working. 

All this is based on practical experience and very little theory, other than being told many years ago that full size railway track is laid in hot conditions or stretched to the equivalent length if the weather is colder.

 

 

Meanwhile, nearly all the track is down on Wentworth Junction, just the connection on to the lifting section to do now and that's waiting for some toggle catches to improve the way the lifting section clamps to the next board.

 

 

The loco siding at the junction has room for two bankers, two 2-8-0s seen here but one might be the Garratt of course.

 

 

The banker siding is level, this really shows up the start of the 1 in 40 gradient. 

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Having seen all these comments and theories about track expansion/stability etc. I thought I'd take a photo of one of the sections of Cwmafon in the shed. Apart from being let out occasionally for exhibitions this board has lived in this (or the previous shed in the same position) for the last 30 years; it was built sometime in the 80s, nearly all the track is nickel silver rail soldered to pcb sleepers (thee's some more recent plastic based track at the bottom) and none of it has moved. It was laid in warm/hot conditions and ballasted with stone and PVA glue. The present fiddle yard had to be laid in less than ideal conditions because of the need to get it ready for a January exhibition and there have been one or two buckles in this, it is also not ballasted, just glued down with No More Nails. A much older part of Cwmafon, probably built about 1978 did produce a bizarre problem - an entire turnout lifted out of the ballast one winter (when the layout was in the shed) and would not go back into the sleeper marks. After bringing the turnout into the house for a few days it fitted back in, glued down and re-connected it's still there and working. 

All this is based on practical experience and very little theory, other than being told many years ago that full size railway track is laid in hot conditions or stretched to the equivalent length if the weather is colder.

 

 

Meanwhile, nearly all the track is down on Wentworth Junction, just the connection on to the lifting section to do now and that's waiting for some toggle catches to improve the way the lifting section clamps to the next board.

 

 

The loco siding at the junction has room for two bankers, two 2-8-0s seen here but one might be the Garratt of course.

 

 

The banker siding is level, this really shows up the start of the 1 in 40 gradient. 

Shame on me! I really should be able to identify which bit of Cwmafon that is but I can't. Must've been away too long...

 

Edit: Got it now (I think) - the bottom of Clydach yard at the top with the MT&A along the bottom?

Edited August 5, 2019 by St Enodoc

[Michael Edge]

Yes, that's it, the rolling mill building which doubles as MT&A fiddle yard is missing. 

[Michael Edge]

Track laying now finished and lifting section fastened with toggle clamps, next job wiring.

 

This is the point motor which came very close to the baseboard joint, moving the drive wire outside the gauge gave a little leeway but some more packing was needed underneath.

 

 

 

 

I have two slightly different signalling diagrams covering the period of the layout, they are basically the same but some arms have been replaced by discs in the later one (small one). Points 17 are interesting, the normal lie is towards the colliery siding rather than the running line, making a sort of catch point/trap here. 19 is a yellow disc, presumably to allow access to the banker siding.

 

 

To check the placing of the down signal after the junction (the only one with a track circuit) a 30 wagon "half" train is run past the junction for the banker to run back into position. This will be the longest train run in this direction, necessary compression has meant that a full 60 wagon train would be at the tunnel before the banker could get on to the back. With full electric operation somewhat longer down trains could be reasonably operated since the bankers worked all the way from Aldam Junction (Wombwell) by then.

[Barry O]

On 05/08/2019 at 07:26, Michael Edge said:

Yes, that's it, the rolling mill building which doubles as MT&A fiddle yard is missing. 

It can be replaced by the original supplier if required....

Baz

[Michael Edge]

I've still got it, it's sort of "dismantled" though.

[St Enodoc]

18 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

I've still got it, it's sort of "dismantled" though.

Demolished?

[Michael Edge]

not deliberately......

[cheesysmith]

I do like the use of gradients here, as the real thing is very rarely flat. Due to the needed compression in length would it have been possible to slightly increase the gradient? For example, by the end of the bankers siding the train on the main would have been higher than the roof of the banker, but if using half the length the train would only be half the height. It would make the gradient steeper than the prototype but would retain the visual effect of the prototype.

[Michael Edge]

I thought it was pushing it a bit using the 1 in 40 gradient. The vertical separation at the buffer stop end of the banker siding was actually only a foot or so, the siding may not have been level, although mine is. 

With trains running all round on both tracks some extensive testing has been going on. With the extreme compression of the layout I don't think I can reasonably run full (60 wagon) trains up the hill but I have tested it with 30 wagons and 3x 2-8-0s - one at the front and two at the back. With only one electric loco in service at present I can't do the all electric tests yet. The full 60 wagon train is now running in the up direction, it does occupy most of the visible layout but this one doesn't have to stop, one O4 can easily lift it out of the fiddle yard. The colliery train was much shorter in pre-mgr days and will fit (minus brake van) in the Sovereign pit siding, it can be run round using the whole of the junction but there would always have been another loco present to bank it up the hill.

I deliberately left all the sidings level to avoid problems with brakeless wagons running away, on Cwmafon we use brake vans with stiff running wheels to get round this but I would prefer the vans to be as free running as the rest of the wagon stock.