DCC Sound British Steam

[ScottMurray]

***No, they aren't Generic.

 

Richard

DCCconcepts

 

Just out of curiosity, since when did all of these locos have air brakes ?

You can hear the air brake release 'hiss' just before the wheels start moving!

[Richard Johnson]

*** Once a sound file is tweaked, then you can judge the result, but not the original. What you are not aware of is that for personal visitors especially, we adjust each file depending on the loco owners request, live and while they listen.

 

Martin likes and asks for a more aggressive chuff so that is what he gets - at the same time we occasionally change sound set content and levels for whistles etc for him as well as set up function operation differently for him compared to my standard files - all to accommodate his preferences and needs. I do this for many customers who visit me, and each likes things done slightly differently. This applies a lot to things like rod clank, brake squeal and other sound details - some like them prominent , some do not.

 

I am certain that those who pursue "accuracy in their own mind" find that hard to live with in the same way as I find oversize flanges and the extreme inaccuracy of peco track and pointwork hard to live with... but its a simple truth - most care about what THEY want to hear, not what others think they should hear... Consequently owner preferences make a very, very big difference.

 

What right do any of us have to tell someone who likes the way their loco sounds that they are wrong? Its what happens in THEIR minds eye that makes the scene right for them.

... just a sit is with subtle colour changes in scenery or rolling stock. We all remember differently.

 

I am certainly not interested in a P-ing up the wall competition on this issue.... sound is a pleasure for us, not a hair shirt. We do not make any real effort to promote our sound files ourselves as "off the peg" items as we have no interest in becoming a sound supermarket. I do take great care to make each original file as accurate as I can (especially for my favoured LMS locos) but you would be surprised at the level of change from absolute reality some people want to make - what matters to them is what THEY want to hear or remember and whether others agree with them, including me, is quite irrelevant.

 

At some stage soon I'll be doing my own recordings of my own locos to my own personal preference for linking from my website - feel free to judge then, but not before.

 

*** Re the post about preserved locos sounding the same as earlier recordings or memories - some are very much the same but some DO sound quite different - anyone who heard an original G2 wheezing like an asthmatic grandmother during both LMS and late steam days wouldn't recognise the sound of the very well restored G2 now in preservation as the same loco.... Its tight, sharp and busy in comparison.

 

***re using old recordings, no, thats not at all correct. All the base recordings we use are of very good quality.... however we do often compare them to old originals before using them as there are sometimes important differences.

 

Enjoy sound as you want it to be - I do, and so d my clients. That individual pleasure is what the hobby is all about.

 

regards

 

Richard

DCCconcepts

 

I agree with this. Apart from the 3 cylinder sync, that West Country doesn't sound anything like a West Country regardless of whether one claims recordings of originals and not preserved examples!

These locos were very well known for their distinctive 'soft' puff rather than the hard 'bark' exhibited in that video. To me, that sounds more like some American or Australian mountain climber than a West Country (ie generic sounds). The Howes version is significantly better.

I don't know what those recordings are, but they are definitely not correct - and I spent many years around Blackmore Vale on the Bluebell, with plenty of video to prove it, so I know what they sound like! I can only conclude that if the recordings are of originals then they must be very old (pre 1968) and consequently, the quality is terrible!

 

Not so long ago, a friend of mine let me drive his DCCConcepts version of the West Country - and yes, it sounded like that video. To be honest, I could not drive it to make it sound reallistic. I didn't manage to get cutoff to occur, so it just chuffed all the time. It didn't even exhibit that deep 'humming' noise from the boiler which the Howes one does.

 

With regards the clanking rods, again, another very prominant feature of these locos.

 

Usual disclaimer, no relation to Howes, just a satisfied customer.

 

Scott

[PhilH]

anyone who heard an original G2 wheezing like an asthmatic grandmother during both LMS and late steam days wouldn't recognise the sound of the very well restored G2 now in preservation as the same loco.... Its tight, sharp and busy in comparison.

 

Oh I dunno - it's still only got 3 beats and a wheeze when you pull it up.

 

You're right about what you say about sound in models, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that. Unfortunately for me, as someone who drives a variety of the 12" to the foot sort on a regular basis, model steam loco sound is at about the same stage as when we used to clip a fag packet to our bikes when we were nippers and pretend that the sound of it hitting the spokes of the wheel was a car engine.

[NoggintheNog]

 

You're right about what you say about sound in models, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that. Unfortunately for me, as someone who drives a variety of the 12" to the foot sort on a regular basis, model steam loco sound is at about the same stage as when we used to clip a fag packet to our bikes when we were nippers and pretend that the sound of it hitting the spokes of the wheel was a car engine.

 

I think its a little harsh , but you are right sound has a way to go yet , although my father, who was a fireman and later driver out of Derby from 1958 - 2005 when he retired, thinks the 37 on the Right track DVD with Nigel Burkin is extremely convincing, he didnt , though, think much of the recent Hornby steam releases.

 

I tend to think that a lot of the problem is sound in model locos is two simulations in one. We are'nt just trying to simulate the sound these things made, but the mechanics of how they worked that produced the sound.

 

By that, I mean thatwe press a button or turn a dial to increase volatge (dcc/dc is the same really at the motor) , whilst the sound unit is trying to convince us their is a diesel unit driving a generator and electric traction units to make the thing move , same with steam, it isnt simply opening a regulator we try to simulate, but the use of the reverser/brake etc to control things.

 

Sometimes I think even if the sounds are absolutely perfect, the order they come out in could be slightly off and make everything sound totally wrong.

 

My solution is easy. I turned to US outline, I havent a clue what most of them really sounded like anyway, so I just enjoy whats there for what it is.

[Scott Murray]

*** Once a sound file is tweaked, then you can judge the result, but not the original. What you are not aware of is that for personal visitors especially, we adjust each file depending on the loco owners request, live and while they listen.

 

Martin likes and asks for a more aggressive chuff so that is what he gets - at the same time we occasionally change sound set content and levels for whistles etc for him as well as set up function operation differently for him compared to my standard files - all to accommodate his preferences and needs. I do this for many customers who visit me, and each likes things done slightly differently. This applies a lot to things like rod clank, brake squeal and other sound details - some like them prominent , some do not.

 

I am certain that those who pursue "accuracy in their own mind" find that hard to live with in the same way as I find oversize flanges and the extreme inaccuracy of peco track and pointwork hard to live with... but its a simple truth - most care about what THEY want to hear, not what others think they should hear... Consequently owner preferences make a very, very big difference.

 

What right do any of us have to tell someone who likes the way their loco sounds that they are wrong? Its what happens in THEIR minds eye that makes the scene right for them.

... just a sit is with subtle colour changes in scenery or rolling stock. We all remember differently.

 

I am certainly not interested in a P-ing up the wall competition on this issue.... sound is a pleasure for us, not a hair shirt. We do not make any real effort to promote our sound files ourselves as "off the peg" items as we have no interest in becoming a sound supermarket. I do take great care to make each original file as accurate as I can (especially for my favoured LMS locos) but you would be surprised at the level of change from absolute reality some people want to make - what matters to them is what THEY want to hear or remember and whether others agree with them, including me, is quite irrelevant.

 

At some stage soon I'll be doing my own recordings of my own locos to my own personal preference for linking from my website - feel free to judge then, but not before.

 

*** Re the post about preserved locos sounding the same as earlier recordings or memories - some are very much the same but some DO sound quite different - anyone who heard an original G2 wheezing like an asthmatic grandmother during both LMS and late steam days wouldn't recognise the sound of the very well restored G2 now in preservation as the same loco.... Its tight, sharp and busy in comparison.

 

***re using old recordings, no, thats not at all correct. All the base recordings we use are of very good quality.... however we do often compare them to old originals before using them as there are sometimes important differences.

 

Enjoy sound as you want it to be - I do, and so d my clients. That individual pleasure is what the hobby is all about.

 

regards

 

Richard

DCCconcepts

 

Richard, with the greatest of respect, your reply says a lot, but nothing in particular except that some people are prepared to accept anything so long as it 'chuffs'. If that is what they want, fine, but it's not what I would accept. I think references to 'hair shirts' is really an excuse for not getting it right in the first place!

 

You didn't answer the question about all of the sound samples provided having air-brakes - none of these locos to my knowledge had air brakes which suggests to me that you are misleading people by telling them that your records are originals - if they were, then they wouldn't have air brakes! I believe that you must have inserted some 'generic' sounds.

[The Black Hat]

One thing is clear, they are certainly better than Olivias Trains sounds. I visited there and was shown some of the engines they had. The only impressive thing there was about them was the fact of where they put sounds, the engines themselves in the shop sounded awful and completely unrealistic.

 

I have got some SWD and Howes sound fitted steam engines. The Standard 4MT from Howes is an absolute joy to drive and hear. I also like the SWD Ivatt 2MT moguls that they do and have got two of these fitted. The Pannier from Howes is also good. I think you need to shop around to find accurate prototypical sounds for steam engines. Fitting smoke and lights looks nice, but im doing without the former on mine and getting someone else to fit the sound and lights for me.

 

If you are prepared to save and spend then you can get the standard you want to have for realism. Just dont expect a big locomotive fleet!

[Richard Johnson]

*** Scott, its not surprising I hadn't replied to your follow up post. If you'd check the time on my post you would have seen that it was already after 2am when I replied to the original. I already spend far too much time giving freely of my knowledge and providing positive and detailed help to modellers worldwide to feel I need to respond to negative posts late at night. To be honest its negative approaches like this that make me wonder why I bother?

 

Scott, I said all I needed to say. I have absolutely no need to defend what I do and certainly have no obligation to debate these sound files - I don't know you nor do you know me, and I do know all my clients...so why you choose to be so negative I have no idea, but I am really not inclined to waste too much time.... especially as I didn't actually make any special claims about nor was it me who posted any of the sound files you are keen to attack ...and I did nothing in my responses other than correct assumption and misinformation. That is all I intended.

 

As I said above - when I DO bother to post my own sound videos with locos set up the way I want them to be then you may feel free to comment. Please leave it until then.

 

Regards and best wishes for the Christmas season.

 

Richard

 

Richard, with the greatest of respect, your reply says a lot, but nothing in particular except that some people are prepared to accept anything so long as it 'chuffs'. If that is what they want, fine, but it's not what I would accept. I think references to 'hair shirts' is really an excuse for not getting it right in the first place!

 

You didn't answer the question about all of the sound samples provided having air-brakes - none of these locos to my knowledge had air brakes which suggests to me that you are misleading people by telling them that your records are originals - if they were, then they wouldn't have air brakes! I believe that you must have inserted some 'generic' sounds.

[Piemanlarger]

Hi Richard, its nice to see you posting on here.

 

Unfortunatley your sound products seem to be coming in for standard bashing, swd have had this from day 1.

Sometimes the views of those interested in the products is usefull (i campained for flange squueal on Swd chips from the first cl 37 project) and sometimes its not.

 

Let the sales do the talking is is the best reply!

[PhilH]

Hi Richard, its nice to see you posting on here.

 

Unfortunatley your sound products seem to be coming in for standard bashing, swd have had this from day 1.

Sometimes the views of those interested in the products is usefull (i campained for flange squueal on Swd chips from the first cl 37 project) and sometimes its not.

 

 

If any steam loco sound chip on the market was a reasonable representation of how a steam loco is driven then I would be first in the queue to buy that chip. It's simply not enough to take a recording of a loco and put a snippet of that into a decoder and call it real steam sound - a deal of thought has to be put into how these things are driven to be able to get close to a realistic sound scenario.There's a big difference in how most lay (for want of a better word) people think a steam loco sounds when driven and how it actually is. For a start it might be an idea to get rid of a lot of the ancillary sound to leave more room for some differing chuff sounds instead of the usual 'full forward gear' sound associated with most model decoders. As well as simply recording the sounds perhaps developers should get a tie up with sites which actually run the real thing to get an insight into whats involved in driving these locos - perhaps once they got that insight then that could be the start of much more realistic steam sounds.

 

I do understand that the technology is still in it's infancy - hence my 'fag packet' statement in an earlier post. To sum up though, in my opinion the current crop of sound chip developers are going down the wrong path for the reasons outlined above.

[NoggintheNog]

 

 

I do understand that the technology is still in it's infancy - hence my 'fag packet' statement in an earlier post. To sum up though, in my opinion the current crop of sound chip developers are going down the wrong path for the reasons outlined above.

 

You seem to have the same opinion as me regarding the issue of simulating the complexities of actually driving these thigs being the issue rather than the sound recordings themselves.

 

I have US locos that do have different chuff sounds, some use the BEMF to sense extra (or less) load and change the chuff accordingly , others use a function button to switch your controller from controlling speed to direct control of the engine load.

What happens is you get the thing moving at say speedstep 10, press the function, and then increasing speedsteps doesnt change the speed of the loco at all, but makes the chuff louder and harsher , an engine under heavy load, whilst reducing the speedsteps below the set speed sees the engine quieten down to a coast with rod clank.They have asimilar thing with diesels too.

 

Its very effective, although nowhere near perfect.

[Richard Johnson]

***Nogginthenog, Phil, I largely agree with both of you. I'm a bit ambivolent on US sound though in some cases... My take on Us steam is that they have a bad tendency to set them up to chuff to a stop, whereas a steam loco thats slowing to a stop any other way than uphill is almost a gliding ghost with anciliary sounds but certainly no overt chuffing. Structuring this takes a lot of time and its important as silences in a steam file are as important as the quality of the chuffs really....

 

Phil...Re your comments as a 1:1 driver... No observer sees things the same as the man in the cab, and your insight is interesting (for me anyway) ...constructive criticism is always a good thing, as is sharing what you see as needed/not needed and needing change in sound locos! You have real hands on awareness so suggest away any time!

 

For us (me anyway) Sound is almost a distraction to the business but I enjoy it so thats OK :-) . I spend many hours on favourite sound files and actually never stop tweaking them as there's always something new to consider... and we actually charge zero for special tuning (a special load on a decoder = same price as a standard ESU sound file for our customers)

 

Sound in british steam has some problems with energy thanks to speaker choice, poor general understanding of installation needs for sound and other issues. My own "ancient history pre-hobby" is in sound at design and concept creation level so it interests me and I have been fiddling with a new speaker concept for a while: The tests are spectacular in energy, clarity and overall "presence" improvment in the sound. No exaggeration to comparing the difference to that between a good tranny and a small good quality hi-fi.

 

I've just bought a couple of HD cameras and a couple of pro quality condenser microphones so in a couple of weeks will hopefully have had the time to do an A-B with two locos - one having the new speaker structure and the other two standard loksounds in what would normally be regarded as a high quality "standard" install.

 

PML - thanks for the post - I have been lurking here for a long time (years actually) and simply decided it was time to support Andys efforts... RMweb has some great content and some exceptional modellers but theres no shortage of mindless destructive comment or meaningless squeaking at the edges is there :-).

 

The issue of original recordings etc often comes up and its a measure of the lack of understanding of sound of the posters that most see it as some sort of holy grail.

 

We have many gigabytes of original loco sounds but the reality is - It isn't the real answer at all!! Its the sound sweetening, level adjustments to balance segments, proper transitions and general "at the desk" engineering them in relation to each other in the decoder that do far more than anything to make the result what it is... followed by a proper installation job done with an understanding of how audio works, and that is very, very rare indeed!

 

I could never afford the studio time, but in reality given a half good reference recording it'd be far better to 100% synthesise all of it as energy, clarity and all detail would then be sharper... as an example of that, every single car sound in "gone in 60 seconds" was totally synthetic... as is almost all air combat sound in movies... yet the cars sound like ferraris, and the planes sound more like Merlin driven Spits (MUCH) more than they would ever have done with any form of microphone collecting the sounds!

 

Re forum comments - Its a shame that irrespective of the subject, those who carp can't do it so instead of looking like an attack it presents positively/creatively. Nobody would object to a comment that said - I like x about what you've done but for my layout/loco/whatever I'd want Y to happen... or perhaps x is sort of OK, but I think it should be louder/softer/ etc etc and it would then encourage positive contributions, assist general RMweb value and encourage those who can do things to do better rather than raise hackles.

 

In the end here as everywhere, generally those that can, do, test the limits and share their knowledge - also doing their best to help others, and it seems that those who cannot generally just criticise...

 

 

Kind regards

 

Richard

[Scott Murray]

*** Scott, its not surprising I hadn't replied to your follow up post. If you'd check the time on my post you would have seen that it was already after 2am when I replied to the original. I already spend far too much time giving freely of my knowledge and providing positive and detailed help to modellers worldwide to feel I need to respond to negative posts late at night. To be honest its negative approaches like this that make me wonder why I bother?

 

Scott, I said all I needed to say. I have absolutely no need to defend what I do and certainly have no obligation to debate these sound files - I don't know you nor do you know me, and I do know all my clients...so why you choose to be so negative I have no idea, but I am really not inclined to waste too much time.... especially as I didn't actually make any special claims about nor was it me who posted any of the sound files you are keen to attack ...and I did nothing in my responses other than correct assumption and misinformation. That is all I intended.

 

As I said above - when I DO bother to post my own sound videos with locos set up the way I want them to be then you may feel free to comment. Please leave it until then.

 

Regards and best wishes for the Christmas season.

 

Richard

 

 

Richard,

 

It's not about attacking people or negativity. I am simply trying to provide constructive feedback. Whether you choose to take it positively or not is your choice.

 

You told us that your recordings were originals, to which I responded that if that was true, how come your sounds have air brakes on locos which never had them ? The fact is, they are either not orignals or there are some 'generic' sounds inserted amongst originals because you couldn't possibly have recorded the originals with air brakes!

 

I can only assume that accusing me of carping and negativity is simply trying to divert attention from what I would consider to be a fundamental fault, the same one of which, Hornby got taken apart for on their Duchess (not by me).

 

You also stated: "My take on Us steam is that they have a bad tendency to set them up to chuff to a stop"

When I saw my friend's West Country with your sound package on it, that is exactly what it did - the very thing you now criticise!

 

I am confused at how someone on the other side of the world who has probably never seen many of the locos he is creating sounds for, can actually produce accurate results!

[Piemanlarger]

 

 

I am confused at how someone on the other side of the world who has probably never seen many of the locos he is creating sounds for, can actually produce accurate results!

 

 

 

 

Perhaps he has a large video / dvd collection for reference?

 

I used the class 37 diarys by train crazy to show how i wanted a 37 to take off under power with a light 4 coach load.

[Marty Mc]

Hi

 

I have had a fair few emails from people asking why I have not replied to this topic. The simple answer is I have being busy at work and when I had a good read tonight I really felt like why bother.... same old same old.

 

To answer a couple of questions.

 

hello mate, could you help me at all? im going to fit a Sound Chip Mrico(ESU) in a Bachmann 3MT where could i put it? in the cab or in the smoke box?

I also can you help me with a Heljan Class 17? where can i put a sound chip + Speaker in there?

 

No I have not done one as of yet but I have 3-4 sitting at home and I do plan to have a crack at them after Christmas. I will PM you on how I did it. Cannot help with the Heljan 17.

 

Hi Martin you are the master, i have seen the videos on the web very impressive any chance of a tutorial on fitting smoke units and firebox flicker?

 

Not according to some but I will PM you a tutorial in the next week or so.

 

It's not about attacking people or negativity. I am simply trying to provide constructive feedback. Whether you choose to take it positively or not is your choice.

 

I do not think you understand what "Constructive Criticism" is....and I find your intent (effort) at constructive criticism has totally destroyed anything positive I want to say now.

 

Why do you think my posts have virtually dropped to 0? People like you Scott. Why bother sharing what I have developed/learned etc. Your just skulking in the corner waiting to shoot it down in flames. That why if people request "How do you..." I will PM them with a reply.

 

I would have being far more receptive if you had have said something like " good job on the lights.........pity the sound is ......and I like what you did with the driver".

 

I am confused at how someone on the other side of the world who has probably never seen many of the locos he is creating sounds for, can actually produce accurate results!

 

Did you ever think that Richard may have come from the UK?

 

I would like to add this example, I was asked about smoke from the cylinders and I gave a working example in a Hornby loco, that's something different and not one comment. Bet you if Andy made the post it would be a totally different story. Again why bother!

 

I love this sound my wife loves it and people I have built locos for love it.

 

Finally for those who have emailed me and left comments on youtube etc about the Brit on ebay yes I did build it but I am not selling it. So get you facts right before you want to have a cheap shot about the price and sound.

 

Not impressed at all.

 

Martin

[Richard Johnson]

*** Scott, if you genuinely think that what you write is constructive, then I am sorry but I really do think you need to improve your interpersonal awareness. I invite you to post some of your own modelling or sound files. I will then happily review them and show you what truly constructive criticism looks like.

 

FYI as it happens I do agree that the Chuff is too aggressive on the Merchant navy file - when I get time and enthusiasm to waste a few more hours I may well replace much of it with a new sound set - but I would happily bet you considerable cash that if I do so, more than 50% of clients will request that I turn it up... that is the reality of sound in model trains in the real world....

 

If the loco you saw chuffed to a stop, then the settings were changed. It needs a combination of reasonably high momentum plus a particular setting of the thresholds in the sound files to achieve it properly - if the momentum was reduced, then the loco will chuff when it should be coasting, rod clank will be minimised or disappear and other things like braking sounds will become excessive.

 

When I set a loco up it may be two or more hours final tweaking on the test track in front of the client before I am happy to let it go... synchronising chuff rates, setting up detail within the sound file... However when its gone home with them clients may then do as they like - and as any change to the way the loco accelerates, decelerates or acts also affects the sound file actions which depend totally on their realtionship with motor back EMF. I am not responsible for changes after a loco leaves my test track.

 

Why would I bother diverting you??? I already answered you very clearly and quite directly.... As I said when I post a sound file thats set up to the way I prefer it then you may feel free to comment. I say what I mean, no more, no less. I told you I use original recordings because that is what I do. As with all advice and coment on this and other lists/fora, I tell it as I see it, plain and simple.... and I don't gloss over issues or worry about being PC if it gets in the way of reality.... I leave that to others.

 

Why does where I live have any bearing on it... I have a good brain, good ears, a fundamental understanding of steam and how a steam loco works and is driven and a good memory, as well as a huge collection of recordings on various media, and yes, I also come from and return to UK from time to time. I have as good an idea about UK steam locos real sound as anyone, in fact to be honest better than I do for US or AU steam, neither of which currently interest me as a modeller.

 

To be honest I really can't blame Martin for being P-ed off either - I know how much skill, time and effort he puts into those locos and he is exceedingly generous in giving of time and help to others who are interested... and always a really good ambassador to the hobby. Frankly having simply watched some of the stupid comments that occur from those who have nothing positive to contribute to the hobby I am surprised he keeps his cool the way he does.

 

That should close this distraction as far as I am concerned - instead of finding fault look at some of the unique and very skilled Work Martin has done to those locos... Superb smoke installations, exceptional lighting including a Merchant navy that can interactively show every possible SR headcode combination using decoder functions and everything else lighting wise that ever existed on a loco.

 

Regards

 

Richard

 

 

 

I

Richard,

 

It's not about attacking people or negativity. I am simply trying to provide constructive feedback. Whether you choose to take it positively or not is your choice.

 

You told us that your recordings were originals, to which I responded that if that was true, how come your sounds have air brakes on locos which never had them ? The fact is, they are either not orignals or there are some 'generic' sounds inserted amongst originals because you couldn't possibly have recorded the originals with air brakes!

 

I can only assume that accusing me of carping and negativity is simply trying to divert attention from what I would consider to be a fundamental fault, the same one of which, Hornby got taken apart for on their Duchess (not by me).

 

You also stated: "My take on Us steam is that they have a bad tendency to set them up to chuff to a stop"

When I saw my friend's West Country with your sound package on it, that is exactly what it did - the very thing you now criticise!

 

I am confused at how someone on the other side of the world who has probably never seen many of the locos he is creating sounds for, can actually produce accurate results!

[Scott Murray]

Richard,

 

It seems that I have been misunderstood. I have no issue with the smoke or lighting installations and congratulate Martin on doing them - they do look very good - well done Martin. I wish we could have diesel smoke generators!

 

I only take issue with the sound. In answer to your points:

 

>If the loco you saw chuffed to a stop, then the settings were changed....

 

As far as I am aware they were not changed - they were 'as supplied'.

 

>Why would I bother diverting you???

 

You tell me! Please explain why your 'original' recordings contain air brake sounds on locos which never had them ?

 

>I told you I use original recordings because that is what I do.

 

Richard, I think that is totally misleading and is untrue. Either they are not of the specific prototype or there are generics inserted amongst originals.

 

>...a fundamental understanding of steam and how a steam loco works and is driven and a good memory, as well as a huge collection of recordings on various media, and yes, I also come from and return to UK from time to time. I have as good an idea about UK steam locos real sound as anyone.....

 

If this is true, then why do you produce air-brake sounds on locos which never had them ? This sort of thing should be part of your fundamental understanding!

 

I have made the points I wanted to make. I'll leave it there and say no more.

 

Well done Martin on your lighting and smoke installations!

[Marty Mc]

Hi

 

Look how about you give us at least 2 examples of what you are talking about. I have had a look on youtube and I cannot find this air brake sound. Can you give me at least 2 examples on different locos with a youtube time.

 

It seems that I have been misunderstood. I have no issue with the smoke or lighting installations and congratulate Martin on doing them - they do look very good - well done Martin. I wish we could have diesel smoke generators!

 

No misunderstanding at all! You will find some info on fan forced smoke units for diesels in this topic. I have built a few to great effect and the only thing left for me to get right is the notching which has proven a little tricky. Again it is something I will put up on youtube when I am happy.... not before, as Im sure many would pick it to bits.

 

m

[PhilH]

Not impressed at all.

 

Then surely you have to allow that others feel the same.

 

 

With regard to steam loco sounds I spent yesterday driving 9F 92212 on the Mid Hants. We had 6 on, packed to the rafters so around 350 tons for most of the trips. Not a lot for one of these things, but enough to make it grunt up the 3 1/2 miles of 1 in 60 out of Alton. I consciously bore in mind the question how could what I was doing on the journey be translated into what could be put into something that could make a realistic sound scenario for a model loco decoder. The honest, objective conclusion I came to was that now and for the foreseeable future it's impossible. There are just too many nuances, variations, minute by minute differences in the way the things sound to make it realistic, certainly for anyone who knows a bit about the them.

 

Maybe the market is for those to whom a few chuffs is good enough - that's not meant to denigrate,just being pragmatic. If that's whom the steam sound decoders are meant for then fair enough, but please, let's not call them 'realistic steam sounds'.

[NoggintheNog]

You will find some info on fan forced smoke units for diesels in this topic. I have built a few to great effect and the only thing left for me to get right is the notching which has proven a little tricky. Again it is something I will put up on youtube when I am happy.... not before, as Im sure many would pick it to bits.

 

m

 

Although I passed comment on steam sound n general in this thread, I was not trying to disparage either your or Richard's work, as said, I think that steam, more than diesel, is limited by the software now (to similaute the actuality of driving a steam engine) rather than the sound samples/speakers , but thats just a general observation rather than specific criticism of anyones products.

 

I for one have enjoyed your videos, especially the lighting which is my next project to have a go at now I have become comfortable fitting the sound decoders in the first place , with US outline its fair to say I perhaps have more opportunity for interesting light effects than UK, simply because of prototype choice. Consider yourself having inspired me

 

However, going on to smoke, I do find it fascinating, although I dont really use the smoke systems on the factory fitted ones I have (fan assisted in time with the chuffs is currently where that is, although as ever with the US, there is a lawsuit over who patented what to make it work between Broadway Limited and MTH), the recent announcements for diesels from MTH include fan blown smoke, first ones appear in the shops in March, an Alco PA and a Gas Turbine, so we should see product video on their site in February.

[Richard Johnson]

*** Scott... You are in UK right? You claim the decoder settings were not changed - something you cannot possibly know... and nor in fact can your friend as to top it off, I have never, ever, supplied, offered or shipped a Merchant Navy sound decoder to/for a client in UK.... The very few decoders in MNs that I have programmed have all been for locals. (nor by the way have I ever sold a MN containing a sound decoder installed by me to a client in UK).

 

So... however your friend obtained it from it was not directly from me. Of course it is entirely possible its a decoder I originally programmed but if it has no coasting ability then it is ****NOT**** still at the same settings that it left my test track with. As always if the owner/recipent of the loco chose to reduce accel/decel (momentum) when it left me then it was because they wanted to... some find it hard to drive a loco with extended acceleration or deceleration time, but that OK and as far as I am concerned that is always the clients choice.

 

So yet again, you keep expressing opinions as facts when clearly they are not....

 

No, you have not been misunderstood. You are judged by how and what you write, no more, no less. The words are clear. claiming a misunderstanding is simply silly.

 

However... Its interesting to see you react that way, as if you read the words I wrote instead of what you think you saw between the lines its your choice, but my comment re not seeing the rest of the value in the video contents and Martins excellent work was actually not specifically aimed at you - There are, sadly, many who delight in criticism. It was a general observation....however if the cap fits... then OK. What was missing from all your earlier posts was exactly what you just said. For your future reference, I write and say what I mean, no more, no less. There is never anything hidden between the lines...

 

As far as I am concerned this discussion is over.

 

For the third and final time, when you see a video made and posted by me with a loco I have programmed to my preferences with sound I lay claim to, then I will answer any questions asked - until then, I have given you all the answers you are entitled to.

 

Regards

 

Richard

 

 

 

Richard,

 

It seems that I have been misunderstood. I have no issue with the smoke or lighting installations and congratulate Martin on doing them - they do look very good - well done Martin. I wish we could have diesel smoke generators!

 

I only take issue with the sound. In answer to your points:

 

>If the loco you saw chuffed to a stop, then the settings were changed....

 

As far as I am aware they were not changed - they were 'as supplied'.

 

>Why would I bother diverting you???

 

You tell me! Please explain why your 'original' recordings contain air brake sounds on locos which never had them ?

 

>I told you I use original recordings because that is what I do.

 

Richard, I think that is totally misleading and is untrue. Either they are not of the specific prototype or there are generics inserted amongst originals.

 

>...a fundamental understanding of steam and how a steam loco works and is driven and a good memory, as well as a huge collection of recordings on various media, and yes, I also come from and return to UK from time to time. I have as good an idea about UK steam locos real sound as anyone.....

 

If this is true, then why do you produce air-brake sounds on locos which never had them ? This sort of thing should be part of your fundamental understanding!

 

I have made the points I wanted to make. I'll leave it there and say no more.

 

Well done Martin on your lighting and smoke installations!

[Richard Johnson]

***Phil

 

thats actually a very interesting post.

 

Reprodcing sound as it is within the cab will always be a real test of brilliance but perhaps there is a way to at least add some of the "flavour" to things.

 

There are at any one time 4 channels that can be active simultaneously on a loksound decoder at various levels and with various degrees of volume "attack" and the way the sounds act in relation to each other actually has a huge amount of flexibility that is almost never realised or used by programmers as they really don't look deep enough into it as time is expensive for them...

 

What would be interesting to know was what particular sounds should be regarded as the "signature" of each class of loco... because if these can be well done, then perhaps it will allow many of the other shortcomings to become less of an issue.

 

A sound file can be upwards of sixty or so separate wave files all linked into a single "Music score" for the loco and reacting to inputs such as back EMF and other less subtle things so there is actualy plenty of scope for those willing to spend lots of time trying and "having a go".

 

Model sound will always in the main remain a caricature of the real thing, as we can never reproduce the sheer energy that is so important to the "feel" of the thing, but...Perhaps with some positive thinking about each loco type some of the more important "signature sounds" can be better used to improve the final result. Such emotive things are way harder for an observer than a participant.

 

Kind regards

 

Richard

 

Then surely you have to allow that others feel the same.

 

 

With regard to steam loco sounds I spent yesterday driving 9F 92212 on the Mid Hants. We had 6 on, packed to the rafters so around 350 tons for most of the trips. Not a lot for one of these things, but enough to make it grunt up the 3 1/2 miles of 1 in 60 out of Alton. I consciously bore in mind the question how could what I was doing on the journey be translated into what could be put into something that could make a realistic sound scenario for a model loco decoder. The honest, objective conclusion I came to was that now and for the foreseeable future it's impossible. There are just too many nuances, variations, minute by minute differences in the way the things sound to make it realistic, certainly for anyone who knows a bit about the them.

 

Maybe the market is for those to whom a few chuffs is good enough - that's not meant to denigrate,just being pragmatic. If that's whom the steam sound decoders are meant for then fair enough, but please, let's not call them 'realistic steam sounds'.

[PhilH]

What would be interesting to know was what particular sounds should be regarded as the "signature" of each class of loco... because if these can be well done, then perhaps it will allow many of the other shortcomings to become less of an issue.

 

That in itself is not as straightforward as it would seem - for instance the thing I was driving yesterday has a double chimney and blastpipe. This gives a totally different sound than other 9Fs which were fitted with a single chimney would have emitted.

[rorz101uk]

 

 

No I have not done one as of yet but I have 3-4 sitting at home and I do plan to have a crack at them after Christmas. I will PM you on how I did it. Cannot help with the Heljan 17.

 

 

its ok, the went into the cab, sorry to borther you, the only down side is its got a Black 5 sound to it, need to take it to howes to put a BR Standard sound to it

thanks

[Mod2]

...

As far as I am concerned this discussion is over.

 

For the third and final time,

...

 

Richard, Scott

 

This aspect of the topic has been reported as getting heated and whilst I have neither the time nor inclination to analyse it fully or apportion blame, I do agree that it's going in circles.

 

Please carry on with the constructive elements that Phil is helping with but let's leave the gainsaying now please.

 

Thanks.

[Richard Johnson]

***Yes... thats a big change Phil - effectively a different loco with the sound file needing a totally different set of chuff related sound files for acceleration, upward transitions, cruise, downward transitions and deceleration, so it'd be a totally different sound file ecept for the detail sounds.

 

However it could be done as long as the interest in doing it is there. The Loksound is something of a blank canvas that only needs awareness, the right resource to take them from plus a wee bit of thought... and a lot of time to make anything possible.

 

Small differences are of interest too. one that interests me for example is the groan of braking locos on bullhead rail (The rail groaning in its chairs, not the loco) vs the brake squeal almost always used, the sounds of loose couled wagons etc... and there must be many similar sounds that will better place sound in time or better act as a signature that says "thats an xx". Most of them will be related to slower speeds andsome even in relation to particular workings perhaps, but there is often enough space in a sound file to include alternates that can be activated based on modellers needs - for example differences between a perserved loco and a "when steam was all there was" are a distinct possibility.

 

Similarly, diesels changed sound a lot as they grew older because their internals chage - turbocharging or superchargers may be added, the way the loco breathes and exhausts changes with noise control limits or emission regulation changes, transition sounds change when a loco goes from simple electromechanical to digitally controlled engine manegement - even wholesale change in engine type isn't unknown especially forthose sold on later in life.

 

In both cases, steam and diesel, I think its a whole area with potential for those interested enough.

 

Kind regards

 

Richard

 

That in itself is not as straightforward as it would seem - for instance the thing I was driving yesterday has a double chimney and blastpipe. This gives a totally different sound than other 9Fs which were fitted with a single chimney would have emitted.