DCC Sound British Steam

[PhilH]

the sounds of loose couled wagons etc

 

Why not put this on a separate decoder + speaker in, say, a box van or something - surely it would only need a pick up from the wheels?

 

one that interests me for example is the groan of braking locos on bullhead rail

 

Not sure if I've ever heard that - do you mean that sound-that-makes-you-wince when a loco with a long fixed wheelbase tries to spread the track when it goes round a bit of a bend? That horrible flange squeal ###### tortured metal sound? If that's what you're after you need to record the thing which I was on on Sat. Running round at Alton was just painful to the ears.

 

edit it doesn't like c-u-m!!

[Richard Johnson]

***No, a real groaning - I hadn't noticed it but a friend pointed it out on a couple of videos and indicated he had also heard it often around the trackage in the bootle area when he was watching the trains in early BR days - it really is a groan rather than a squeal and comes I presume from the rail moving slightly in the chairs - On the videos it was a bit dependent on mic postioning and it seemed mostly around pointwork rather than on plain track, and being a lower frequency it was hard to pinpoint until it was pointed out.

 

Thinking about it it needs to be subtle and may well be a good thing to use for general atmoshere rather than a loco based sound... ie: put it on a disributed "outboard" sound system triggered by a detector as the loco approaches each relevant position.... perhaps accompained by a series of random "yard based" sounds that might have existed.

 

The flange squeal would be a useful selectable onboard addition though... triggered by a non latching function button - as you say its one that gets attention!

 

Richard

 

Not sure if I've ever heard that - do you mean that sound-that-makes-you-wince when a loco with a long fixed wheelbase tries to spread the track when it goes round a bit of a bend? That horrible flange squeal ###### tortured metal sound? If that's what you're after you need to record the thing which I was on on Sat. Running round at Alton was just painful to the ears.

 

edit it doesn't like c-u-m!!

[ScottMurray]

***No, a real groaning - I hadn't noticed it but a friend pointed it out on a couple of videos and indicated he had also heard it often around the trackage in the bootle area when he was watching the trains in early BR days - it really is a groan rather than a squeal and comes I presume from the rail moving slightly in the chairs - On the videos it was a bit dependent on mic postioning and it seemed mostly around pointwork rather than on plain track, and being a lower frequency it was hard to pinpoint until it was pointed out.

 

Thinking about it it needs to be subtle and may well be a good thing to use for general atmoshere rather than a loco based sound... ie: put it on a disributed "outboard" sound system triggered by a detector as the loco approaches each relevant position.... perhaps accompained by a series of random "yard based" sounds that might have existed.

 

The flange squeal would be a useful selectable onboard addition though... triggered by a non latching function button - as you say its one that gets attention!

 

Richard

 

Richard is correct that such a sound occurs. Somewhere I've got some video of it taken at West Hoathley on the Bluebell Railway when the line terminated there. One of the 'N's was running round its train and indeed, made these sounds as it passed over the switch and crossing work. It was a sort of creaking/groaning sound and you need to be fairly close to hear it. It was most noticeable when the loco was travelling round the curved position of turnouts. I think it is probably a combination of factors, probably a settling of the rails in the chairs due to the loco weight and probably some straining in the loco suspension and in the track due to the sideways forces exerted by the loco moving around the curve.

 

Note that this sound occured on BH rail. I have never heard it on FB rail, probably because the rails are more firmly fixed to the sleepers and because most modern rolling stock suspension is quite different to that on the 'N'. It would be interesting to hear the 'N' on FB track.

 

Since most modellers use FB rail (ie Peco), it may not be appropriate for most layouts to have this sound.

 

Scott

[Richard Johnson]

*** You are dead right about that Scott - its only bullhead track it happens on as far as I have heard so far. Appropriate for steam era and up to whenever the area modelled changed to FB - many yards stayed BH for a long while though I guess...

 

If it was to be on a decoder rather than outboard its one of those sound that could be optioned easily enough - have both on the decoder (groan and squeal) and activate according to the owners modelling period... or perhaps offer both active for transitional modelers.

 

Kind regards

 

Richard

 

Richard is correct that such a sound occurs. Somewhere I've got some video of it taken at West Hoathley on the Bluebell Railway when the line terminated there. One of the 'N's was running round its train and indeed, made these sounds as it passed over the switch and crossing work. It was a sort of creaking/groaning sound and you need to be fairly close to hear it. It was most noticeable when the loco was travelling round the curved position of turnouts. I think it is probably a combination of factors, probably a settling of the rails in the chairs due to the loco weight and probably some straining in the loco suspension and in the track due to the sideways forces exerted by the loco moving around the curve.

 

Note that this sound occured on BH rail. I have never heard it on FB rail, probably because the rails are more firmly fixed to the sleepers and because most modern rolling stock suspension is quite different to that on the 'N'. It would be interesting to hear the 'N' on FB track.

 

Since most modellers use FB rail (ie Peco), it may not be appropriate for most layouts to have this sound.

 

Scott

[Carnforth]

Evenin' All

If I may I'd like to return to the somewhat thorny issue of what has been described as "air brakes" applied to models, the prototypes of which were not so fitted. I don't think this issue was properly addressed and requires some clarification.

It is my understanding that the hiss just before motion is that of the previously empty steam chest being charged with dry steam on its way to the valves,as the regulator is initially opened. This feature is also present on Bryan's chips via Howes and as far as I'm aware is entirely prototypical, provided the cylinders were hot and the taps need not be opened to allow condensate to escape.As said, this is my take on the issue and I could be completely wrong.

Steve

[PhilH]

Evenin' All

If I may I'd like to return to the somewhat thorny issue of what has been described as "air brakes" applied to models, the prototypes of which were not so fitted. I don't think this issue was properly addressed and requires some clarification.

It is my understanding that the hiss just before motion is that of the previously empty steam chest being charged with dry steam on its way to the valves,as the regulator is initially opened. This feature is also present on Bryan's chips via Howes and as far as I'm aware is entirely prototypical, provided the cylinders were hot and the taps need not be opened to allow condensate to escape.As said, this is my take on the issue and I could be completely wrong.

Steve

 

Not sure about that one - there is a momentary hiss before the snifting valves seat, but as I say that is a momentary phssst sound.

 

Believe me about the 'groaning', call it what you will, sound. It is the fixed wheelbase of the loco trying to spread the track as it runs through the curved part of a point for instance.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I think PhilH will agree that opening the regulator will give a very faint hiss and gurgle as live steam fills the delivery pipes and valve chests and the pistons start to move. From the ones I have been on the footplate of and the one I have driven, there is a delay of about two seconds. The sound is very muted as it is deep within the boiler and the pipes and valve chests are containing the pressure until the exhaust valve opens.

 

As to flange squeal this is very common or used to be. The curve onto Rochester Bridge from the down mainline was particularly bad. I can also remember both coming into and leaving Waterloo on EMU's with sometimes severe squealing over points.

 

The most recent occurrence was a Class 33 shunting on little used sidings at swanage some years back.

 

I wonder if it is related to tyre wear and rail condition?

[ScottMurray]

Evenin' All

If I may I'd like to return to the somewhat thorny issue of what has been described as "air brakes" applied to models, the prototypes of which were not so fitted. I don't think this issue was properly addressed and requires some clarification.

It is my understanding that the hiss just before motion is that of the previously empty steam chest being charged with dry steam on its way to the valves,as the regulator is initially opened. This feature is also present on Bryan's chips via Howes and as far as I'm aware is entirely prototypical, provided the cylinders were hot and the taps need not be opened to allow condensate to escape.As said, this is my take on the issue and I could be completely wrong.

Steve

 

Carnforth,

 

At the risk of prolonging this discussion! :

I agree that on the prototype, there is a faint hiss, however, on the Howes sound it is not prominent and it sounds like what it is - steam easing into the cylinders.

On Richard's sounds, it sounds like a recording of air brakes being pulled off (sounds like an air cylinder evacuating) which is very quick.

It does not sound like steam hisses to me which last considerably longer.

 

If the correct sound was used and it wasn't so prominent, it would be acceptable, but I would suggest that the prototypes should be researched because different locos would make different sounds and they wouldn't be 'blanket' the same as they are in the videos - some locos would exhibit the sound more than others and some, you wouldn't notice it at all.

In all there years I spent around the Bluebell railway, I don't ever recall hearing 'air cylinder evacuation' sounds prior to locos starting off. In most cases, it was a gentle hiss which led into movement and a 'puff'. Movement generally started while the hiss was in progress. Richards' sound waits for the hiss to stop, then the loco moves - like air brakes do.

[ScottMurray]

As to flange squeal this is very common or used to be. The curve onto Rochester Bridge from the down mainline was particularly bad. I can also remember both coming into and leaving Waterloo on EMU's with sometimes severe squealing over points.

 

The most recent occurrence was a Class 33 shunting on little used sidings at swanage some years back.

 

I wonder if it is related to tyre wear and rail condition?

 

Yes, flange squeal is as present today as it ever was!

 

It occurs because railway wheels are on fixed axles and cannot rotate at different rates like road vehicle wheels can through a differential.

Therefore, railway wheels tend to want to travel in a straight line and not go around curves. In doing this, flanges rub against the sides of rail heads. In extremes, locos such as 9F's reputedly straightened track out!

To compensate, the treads of wheels are conical in shape.

This is actually a very big topic in permanent way design and includes factors such as lines speeds, canting, rail and wheel wear etc, all of which have interelated effects.

There are some tramway vehicles such as the low-floor types which use separate wheels, but these bring a whole extra set of permanent way design issues into play.

[The Black Hat]

Some of the Howes chips that I have for steam are fantastic. They have the guards whistle and the wheel flange on them. But also the sounds caputured for those displayed are taken from sounds of the prototypical engine and not generic. This makes the sound and the actual chuff of the engines much more to what you expect. Add things like the appropriate whistle and its very much a small steam loco running with the right sounds. I know things such as wheel revolutions to cylinders are taken into account, so timing is right with the motion. But thats not just all. Chuffs alone are when the engine is under power. The brilliance of some Howes engines is that they have the 'rod clank' of some steam engines when idelling under power or coming to a stand. Engines like the standard 5MT - also good for the standard 4MT - mean that the rods are heard almost as soon as you ease off the regulator.

 

Other steam engines can be requested and indeed there was a list of others you could get that were a mix of sounds taken from other engines. These were given the same treatment, such as the wheel revolutions, beats per stroke of cylinders, correct whistles to the point that it very much sounded as good as engines with the right sounds. This is not normally the case for such mixing.

 

I am looking forward to getting more sound chips soon - and am nothing more than a satisfied customer from the service they offer. I just wish it wasnt as expensive!

[Richard Johnson]

*** All this is actually now quite interesting.... at last some logical discussion on the where and why of the sound, rather than accusations of misinformation. The sound on our sound files really is not an air brake however it IS a separate small/short sound file of steam sound timed to play just before the loco starts to move.

 

It is possible to both change its level and its timing. This is in common with many acilliary sounds - which may well have been differently heard depending on how the driver acts in the cab, therefore changing some results and on the attention and position of the listener.... both of which make evaluation no easier for sound than memories of colour are to a loco painter and his reviewers :-). (In that vein, perhaps a comment that it was more prominent that the poster liked rather than claiming it was what it wasn't would have been useful earlier on).

 

A steam file consists of literally dozens of sounds from less than 1/2 second to several seconds long linked via the software "map" to work together - One of the things that is hardest to do with a sound file is to balance all of them in relation to each other so everyone is happy, especially as depending on volume setting of the decoder, speaker type and position etc sounds that are subtle sometimes may be emphasised in some installs and vice versa...

 

I am in a position at the moment to need to revisit many sound files thanks to a catastrophic computer problem so I will review the sounds relating to that area as I go along... so thanks for the now quite interesting discussion in relation to them.

 

kind regards

 

Richard

 

Yes, flange squeal is as present today as it ever was!

 

It occurs because railway wheels are on fixed axles and cannot rotate at different rates like road vehicle wheels can through a differential.

Therefore, railway wheels tend to want to travel in a straight line and not go around curves. In doing this, flanges rub against the sides of rail heads. In extremes, locos such as 9F's reputedly straightened track out!

To compensate, the treads of wheels are conical in shape.

This is actually a very big topic in permanent way design and includes factors such as lines speeds, canting, rail and wheel wear etc, all of which have interelated effects.

There are some tramway vehicles such as the low-floor types which use separate wheels, but these bring a whole extra set of permanent way design issues into play.

[Scott Murray]

Some of the Howes chips that I have for steam are fantastic. They have the guards whistle and the wheel flange on them. But also the sounds caputured for those displayed are taken from sounds of the prototypical engine and not generic. This makes the sound and the actual chuff of the engines much more to what you expect. Add things like the appropriate whistle and its very much a small steam loco running with the right sounds. I know things such as wheel revolutions to cylinders are taken into account, so timing is right with the motion. But thats not just all. Chuffs alone are when the engine is under power. The brilliance of some Howes engines is that they have the 'rod clank' of some steam engines when idelling under power or coming to a stand. Engines like the standard 5MT - also good for the standard 4MT - mean that the rods are heard almost as soon as you ease off the regulator.

 

Other steam engines can be requested and indeed there was a list of others you could get that were a mix of sounds taken from other engines. These were given the same treatment, such as the wheel revolutions, beats per stroke of cylinders, correct whistles to the point that it very much sounded as good as engines with the right sounds. This is not normally the case for such mixing.

 

I am looking forward to getting more sound chips soon - and am nothing more than a satisfied customer from the service they offer. I just wish it wasnt as expensive!

 

David,

 

Absolutely agree on all points. The reason why the Howes sounds are so good is because Bryan makes arrangements with loco owners and appropriate authorities to go out and take sound recordings of the real thing, using modern digital recording equipment. Sometimes, I believe, locos are 'hired' for the day, shunted up and down, run around, accellerated etc to get all kinds of different sounds.

This really is the ultimate way of getting accurate recordings and is far superior by a long way than using bits and pieces off of old recordings (whether sound enhanced or not), off of old Argo records or using generics!

[johnd]

David,

 

Absolutely agree on all points. The reason why the Howes sounds are so good is because Bryan makes arrangements with loco owners and appropriate authorities to go out and take sound recordings of the real thing, using modern digital recording equipment. Sometimes, I believe, locos are 'hired' for the day, shunted up and down, run around, accellerated etc to get all kinds of different sounds.

This really is the ultimate way of getting accurate recordings and is far superior by a long way than using bits and pieces off of old recordings (whether sound enhanced or not), off of old Argo records or using generics!

 

Perhaps this goes some way to say why Howes sound decoders are a bit more expensive ( Loco owners won't run there Loco's for nothing ). Havw meet Bryan and have been allowed to play with a 8F in Howes , was most impressed.

[big jim]

i think thats where howes stand out too, i have done quite a bit of recording for bryan on various locos, 56, 66, 37, 47, 57 etc and if needs be he could adjust various sounds to suit a particular prototype, for example 66301 has a different horn to 66305, bryan has both recordings so could easily change the horn to suit (or give the buyer a bit of variety)

 

as for steam sounds he's now done me a tornado chip which i'll hopefully get some time next week

[The Black Hat]

I have to agree that Howes are the standard for running chips with both the play factor and the accuracy. Driving them is easier as the notching required for some engines doesnt happen. Its merely controlling the amount of power by means of the accellerator for the power or as it is, now speed. I think this makes driving them much more fun as you can controll the engine easily, and then add the functions for things like horns or wheel flange when needed. Its hard to drive, notch and then trigger functions and when you have a chip like Howes, nothcing is simply not needed.

 

The sounds of the Howes chips are by far the best. I do think that some recent creations by Bachmann and Hornby are starting to meet the mark, but then they like this whole notching thing and it makes it hard to drive. Just about all of mine at some point are ear-marked for a trip to Oxford. Just wish they were cheaper, but when the whole country is after them - they deserve to be the highest price for the highest quality.

 

They are accurate, relaible, user freindly and customer service is excellent.

 

Just wished they were my local shop!

[Wogga]

Richard & Marty i am totally inspired by your work, so much so since i can read and since i can hear i am going to have a go with a Marty Mc type conversion and a loksound programmer in the new year. It may be a bit of a challenge but i spend a few nights in hotels each week so need something to stop me crawling up the wall.

 

Marty is kindly sending me some guides, as and when he has time, which shall be a great help when i get going.

 

Only trouble is the lack of ESU in the UK, rarer than hens teeth. There's no Loksound programmers online and the Loksounds 3.5 appear to be on backorder as well, mind you looking at Hornby's 2010 range i can guess where ESU's production has been focused.

 

Fingers crossed Bromsgrove has some of your LMS lamps in stock Richard.

 

Happy New Year to the pair of you and keep up the good work, Peep Peep says Thomas or should that be Poop Poop?

[islc52]

Hi Martin

 

Enjoyed watching your DCC steam locos. If you still need a West Country / BB whistle, I have a couple which may be of use. I went through my own videos shot on the Bluebell and I have four whistles from Wadebridge, one from Blackmore Vale and one from Sir Archibald Sinclair which may be useable. All have background steam of course, but I may be able to get a cleaner one from Archie next time we are filming there as my colleague and I are making a DVD for the 50th anniversary. Please advise what audio format you need (WAV, AIFF, mono, stereo, 48K, 16 bit etc) and I can email you.

Best wishes, Ian

[Marty Mc]

Hi

 

Pleased to hear you enjoyed them. As you can see so many people as passionate about sound. Tomorrow I am off to record my unborn child's heartbeat with Doppler at the doctors. It beats at 160-180 pm and sounds like a steam loco at high speed. It will find it way onto Tomas the tank engine and I think its a great way to encourage the next generation into "Dads" interests.

 

Now, I'm sure the "sound professor's/experts" will find many faults with my ideas and go to great lengths to tell me what's wrong etc but I just don't care. As long as the kids like it, my wife melted like butter....actually she cried and thought it was one of the most beautiful gestures I had made for our unborn child.

 

So much so she allowed me (with some minor conditions) to upgrade from a ford G6E to a new G6E turbo. Thinking outside the "sound box" has worked a treat for me!

 

islc52 thank you very much for the offer and yes I will take you up on that. I'm sure their will be others interested in what you have to offer and I will send you an email shortly.

 

A very happy camper!

 

Martin