Ex Metropolitan Railway 8 wheel coaches in France

[rue_d_etropal]

I have seen several references to ex Metropolitan Railway 8 wheel coaches being sold to a railway in northern France. Somewhere I have seen a photo(society mag?), but can not find any photos online. Have a feeling they lasted into the 50s.

As the Met did modify some before they were sold, I am interested to see what the French ones looked like. I have drawings of the coaches in the book about the Metropolitan Railway, and can work out how some mods were done,  certainly on the ones that ended up on the Isle of Wight, so should be able to do something fr the French ones.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Never heard of this before. Very interesting.

 

It would presumably be one of the industrial railways: either coal or iron ore, for transporting the workmen. May be worth checking photos of Mamers-St Calais.

[Fat Controller]

Never heard of this before. Very interesting.

 

It would presumably be one of the industrial railways: either coal or iron ore, for transporting the workmen. May be worth checking photos of Mamers-St Calais.

There was one large system in the Lens-Lille-Douai region which had a public passenger service, I believe.

[rue_d_etropal]

in the book I have, it says that in 1906 seven 2nd class coaches were initially sold to the Societé des Chemins de Fer Economiques, then another nine(not sure which class), followed in 1908  by a further six to a 'French Railway Company'.

 

I think the line might actually be further south as I found this photo, which looks like a Met coach. They are quite distinctive.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Gare_de_Sainte-H%C3%A9l%C3%A8ne.jpg

 

and

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/LBLO_-_Lacanau-Oc%C3%A9an.jpg

Edited August 14, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[Joseph_Pestell]

Chemin de Fers Economiques was a Col Stephens type light railway company with interests across the country. But most would have been metre-gauge, I think.

 

The most likely SE northern line that I can find is Don Sainghin - Fromelles which was transferred to the Nord mainline company in the late 20s - perhaps a coincidence but about the time that the Met stock would have expired if not already destroyed during WW1. Lovely picture in a Voix du Nord feature article of one of those double-ended steam railmotors.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[Fat Controller]

Chemin de Fers Economiques was a Col Stephens type company with interests across the country. But most would have been metre-gauge, I think.

It became CFTA, and is now part of Veolia; its standard-gauge lines included a large network in Brittany, and another centered around Gray, near Dijon.

I have seen, possibly on this forum, photos of ex-Metropolitan 8-wheel stock on a coastal network in the SW (possibly the Landes)

[Andy Hayter]

I have read of these recently (last couple of years) and if IIRC some ended up on the secodary network in the Medoc.  Unfortunately I did not record where I have read this since it is outside of my interest areas.

[rue_d_etropal]

It became CFTA, and is now part of Veolia; its standard-gauge lines included a large network in Brittany, and another centered around Gray, near Dijon.

I have seen, possibly on this forum, photos of ex-Metropolitan 8-wheel stock on a coastal network in the SW (possibly the Landes)

I think that confirms it, the Landes area looks more likely. PhotoI have seen (link above) confirms the coaches are in 'original' condition.

[Metr0Land]

The curved tops to the doors in the pics would seem to confirm their origin.  Did any other railway have round top doors like those on the Met?

[Joseph_Pestell]

SCFE had two standard gauge lines in the Landes. Altogether more likely location.

[rue_d_etropal]

The curved tops to the doors in the pics would seem to confirm their origin.  Did any other railway have round top doors like those on the Met?

Only ones would have been for London I think. The District Line had some similar, and that confused them when they restored a 4 wheeler , now on KESR, and they now think it is a cut down 8 wheeler.

For me I wanted to know if they were the original, or partly modified. The original had the lower longitudial beeding mid way up the lower panel, but they modified this to be higher. They then went and rebodied some coaches. The Isle of Wight ones are part modified. Otherwise they are a very simple design(flat sided/ended boxes), which is why I am considering doing a design. Have some go to France increases potential interest.

Fitting wheels will be fun, so I might not do the axle boxes , leaving it up to the modeller to decide on 8 wheels or 2 bogies.

Edited August 14, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[Fat Controller]

Only ones would have been for London I think. The District Line had some similar, and that confused them when they restored a 4 wheeler , now on KESR, and they now think it is a cut down 8 wheeler.

For me I wanted to know if they were the original, or partly modified. The original had the lower longitudial beeding mid way up the lower panel, but they modified this to be higher. They then went and rebodied some coaches. The Isle of Wight ones are part modified. Otherwise they are a very simple design(flat sided/ended boxes), which is why I am considering doing a design. Have some go to France increases potential interest.

Fitting wheels will be fun, so I might not do the axle boxes , leaving it up to the modeller to decide on 8 wheels or 2 bogies.

Not sure, but some may have gone to the Burry Port and Gwendreath Railway. Given how tight the curves were on that line in places, it probably wasn't the wisest of choices.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Only ones would have been for London I think. The District Line had some similar, and that confused them when they restored a 4 wheeler , now on KESR, and they now think it is a cut down 8 wheeler.

For me I wanted to know if they were the original, or partly modified. The original had the lower longitudial beeding mid way up the lower panel, but they modified this to be higher. They then went and rebodied some coaches. The Isle of Wight ones are part modified. Otherwise they are a very simple design(flat sided/ended boxes), which is why I am considering doing a design. Have some go to France increases potential interest.

Fitting wheels will be fun, so I might not do the axle boxes , leaving it up to the modeller to decide on 8 wheels or 2 bogies.

 

Unless just for display, 8 wheels rigid is probably not going to work. But probably easy enough to make a false inside bearing bogie which pivots slightly inside the axle boxes. Particularly for the French market, I think you need to do the axleboxes. Aftermarket parts much harder to get over there.

[Joseph_Pestell]

It became CFTA, and is now part of Veolia; its standard-gauge lines included a large network in Brittany, and another centered around Gray, near Dijon.

I have seen, possibly on this forum, photos of ex-Metropolitan 8-wheel stock on a coastal network in the SW (possibly the Landes)

 

There was not a large network of standard gauge in Brittany. It was metre-gauge although two lines were later (1960s?) converted to standard gauge, connecting to the SNCF at Guingamp.

[rue_d_etropal]

They were an odd choice for the lines in London, as curves of District line were a bit tight. One reason they did not last long, but then the concept of bogie coaches was still quite new at the time.

[Jeff Smith]

Only ones would have been for London I think. The District Line had some similar, and that confused them when they restored a 4 wheeler , now on KESR, and they now think it is a cut down 8 wheeler.

For me I wanted to know if they were the original, or partly modified. The original had the lower longitudial beeding mid way up the lower panel, but they modified this to be higher. They then went and rebodied some coaches. The Isle of Wight ones are part modified. Otherwise they are a very simple design(flat sided/ended boxes), which is why I am considering doing a design. Have some go to France increases potential interest.

Fitting wheels will be fun, so I might not do the axle boxes , leaving it up to the modeller to decide on 8 wheels or 2 bogies.

Roxey Mouldings produces etched kits of the five varieties. Kits include provision for three gauges and have the refurbished panel style. The rigid wheels are actually bogies behind fixed axleboxes.

 

My 6 Compt. First is in P4

 

 

[Guy Rixon]

According to Mr. Snowdon's reference book, 7 2nd-class carriages, built in 1883-4, were sold in 1906 to the Societé des Chemins de Fer Economiques. Nine further coaches were sold to them later that year. In 1908, six coaches were sold to "a french railway company". The exact coaches sold are not identified, but the author notes later that the rebuilt 8-wheel coaches (of which there were only ever 5) were retained by the Metropolitan. Therefore the stock that went to France must be original-format 8-wheelers or "Jubilee" 4-wheelers.

 

The rigid, 8-wheeled coaches had square-topped doors in the lots built up to 1868 (coaches 1 to 92). Thereafter coaches were built with round-topped doors.

 

BTW, if you fancy doing more Metropolitan stock, nobody* has yet marketed a kit, or print, or RTR model for the coaches of 1898. These are the ones called "bogie" stock by the Metropolitan and "Ashbury" stock by enthusiasts and preservationists, and they have round-cornered panelling. The rebuilt rigid coaches were repaneled in the style of the bogie stock.

 

*LRM do brass kits for the ones that were rebuilt as EMUs and then rebuilt again as push-pull trailers for the Chesham branch, but they can't represent the original, loco-hauled form.

[rue_d_etropal]

There may be kits, but my target base is those who either don't want to can't built a complex kit, especially etched brass ones. Nothing against them for those who want to build them, but that market is shrinking, as more good quality r2r comes out. You only have to see how quickly some r2r sells out. The gap between kit/scratch building is getting bigger. I am not trying to compete ,just offering an alternative.

Scalewise I start with 4 scales, 4mm, 3.5mm, 3mm and N (could offer 2mm as well if asked), but have done some designs in O, G1 and S, even 1/55 scale.

[Jeff Smith]

Ok, it wasn't clear in your post that you were considering RTR.

[Pacific231G]

I think I've answered a similar query to this before. 

It was the Société Générale des Chemins de Fer Economiques (S.E.)that acquired sixteen coaches (originally built in 1882-1884) from the Metropolitan Railway in 1906/07 for its Réseau des Landes de Gironde. This was a 260km network of standard gauge local light railways (d'Interet Local) in the Gironde Département (where the S.E. also operated other railways)  It was in the part of the Departément roughly north west, west and south of Bordeaux that included part of the Grandes Landes de Gascogne (great moors of Gascogny) This is a large region of once open moorland that in the mid nineteenth century had been turned over almost entirely to pine forestry. It occupies a large part of Gironde, over half of the adjoining Département des Landes  (which had its own SG local railways most bult abd operated by a subsidiiary of the local main line Midi company) and a chunk of Lot et Garonne.

 

The S.E. discovered that the coaches that had been built for the network in 1898  weren't enough so bought the Metropolitan coaches to complete their fleet. They were in excellent condition and seem to have mostly worked on the Bordeaux-St Louis - Lacanau - Lacanau Ocean line which developed a fairly brisk seaside traffic. Some of them were still working that line until at least 1964 though mostly as relief stock for high days and holidays. They weren't actually bogie coaches but had four parallel axles, two at each end (presumably with enough sideplay for points and curves)  

 

I wouldn't describe the SE as a Col. Stephens type operation. The concessions to bulld and operate the local railways, authorised and owned by the Départements but heavily encouraged by Paris n order to open up rural France, were a very lucrative business for a while. Several companies, the CFD and the SE were the largest but there were others, developed to take on that business. In that respect they were probably more like First Group or the large companies that operated tram networks for several British cities. Sometimes they were awarded the original concessions but often took them over from smaller local enterprises. These companies also operated some of the larger "national network" metre gauge lines for the main line railways that held their concessions including the Réseau Breton (SE) and the C.F. Vivarais (CFD)  These companies could achieve considerable economies of scale in for example ordering wagons, coaches and locomotives and often had quite distinctive "house styles" in architecture. The CFD was even large enough to have a range of diesel railcars specially designed and built for use on its various lines by Billard of Tours. 

 

The SE's purchse of second hand- albeit quite young- coaches from the Met was pretty exceptional.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Joseph_Pestell]

David, Agreed that SE was a completely different scale of operation to Col Stephens' empire. I just meant that it was a) light railways and b) dispersed widely across the country.

 

Fascinating to learn that those carriages were still doing Bordeaux - Lacanau as recently as 1960s.

[rue_d_etropal]

Ok, it wasn't clear in your post that you were considering RTR.

almost r2r, something halfway between kit and r2r. lowers the barrier and extends some modelllers from just r2r into part building.

[PhilJ W]

As a suggestion, if your modelling some of these coaches and the rigid wheelbase could cause problems what about fixing the two inner axles and having the outer axles swiveling in the same manner as the Hornby long wheelbase goods wagons (such as the Ferry Van).

[Joseph_Pestell]

As a suggestion, if your modelling some of these coaches and the rigid wheelbase could cause problems what about fixing the two inner axles and having the outer axles swiveling in the same manner as the Hornby long wheelbase goods wagons (such as the Ferry Van).

 

Once anything starts swivelling, probably easier to provide a fake inside bearing bogie.

[Jeff Smith]

almost r2r, something halfway between kit and r2r. lowers the barrier and extends some modelllers from just r2r into part building.

Simon, I wish you good luck but I cannot see the market size. As an example, the Radley resin Dreadnought kits are relatively easy to assemble, the body comes as a complete moulding. With the success of the Heljan Metro BoBo you would expect to see lots of these around but the impression I get from various threads is that many people who need them won't tackle them.