R4871 Brighton Belle coach pack

[ndg910]

I don't know if this has been asked before so my apologies in advance if it has.

 

I was wondering if the belle set has 1 motor or 2 motors to power it.

 

I think the best modification for this unit would be that if 1 chassis is unpowered that a swap for a powered chassis would be a vast improvement for traction purposes.

 

Either that or a complete repowering of the unit using an alternative drive system if 1 is available that would fit the unit without extreme modifications.

The Belle model is basically a loco plus 4coaches and unless you have some severe gradients a second motor will give little in my opinion and may result in the pair of motors jerking the unpowered coaches between. Good prototypical idea but in my view a waste of money.

[Phatbob]

The Belle model is basically a loco plus 4coaches and unless you have some severe gradients a second motor will give little in my opinion and may result in the pair of motors jerking the unpowered coaches between. Good prototypical idea but in my view a waste of money.

Waste of who's money?  The bl00dy thing wouldn't go through a fiddleyard fan of just two points!

Given the extra cost of fitting an extra motor in China, versus the saving from only tooling one driving end underframe, is it worth spoiling the ship for a ha'p'th o' tar?  I've spent over three hundred hard-earned quid on something not fit for purpose.  I think Hornby's shareholders could perhaps cope with 50p less in dividends in the short term to avoid p155ing-off their customers in the long term.. 

I've had a reply from Hornby wrt to my complaint I sent them, prompt and polite.  The traction tyres option is out as no suitable wheel sets are available.  I'll wait and see what else they might offer. 

[ndg910]

Waste of who's money? The bl00dy thing wouldn't go through a fiddleyard fan of just two points!

Given the extra cost of fitting an extra motor in China, versus the saving from only tooling one driving end underframe, is it worth spoiling the ship for a ha'p'th o' tar? I've spent over three hundred hard-earned quid on something not fit for purpose. I think Hornby's shareholders could perhaps cope with 50p less in dividends in the short term to avoid p155ing-off their customers in the long term..

I've had a reply from Hornby wrt to my complaint I sent them, prompt and polite. The traction tyres option is out as no suitable wheel sets are available. I'll wait and see what else they might offer.

I’m fairly thick skinned but your tone is unacceptable. I sympathise but can see why Hornby are holding back on any easy fixes. I sorted mine for less than 50p and an hour of my time but am blowed if am going to share that. I also respect that you shouldn’t need to implement on a new model however cheap or expensive.1.

[Phatbob]

I’m fairly thick skinned but your tone is unacceptable. I sympathise but can see why Hornby are holding back on any easy fixes. I sorted mine for less than 50p and an hour of my time but am blowed if am going to share that. I also respect that you shouldn’t need to implement on a new model however cheap or expensive.1.

Sincere apologies for any offence.  That was never my intention.  It's Hornby I'm annoyed with, not you Sir.

[exet1095]

Not sure what the issue is. Mine will pull an additional nine Pullman cars, as well as the full Belle set.

Edited September 11, 2018 by exet1095

[adb968008]

I've spent over three hundred hard-earned quid on something not fit for purpose. I think Hornby's shareholders could perhaps cope with 50p less in dividends in the short term

 

I think Hornby shareholders have coped with quite a lot.

 

Hornbys shareprice today is 31p, it was £3.05 in 2007.

When the Belle was announced on December 25th 2010, the shareprice was £1.42

Coincidentally, it was only 9 days earlier Hornby payed it’s last dividend, of 1.7p a share, not since repeated.

 

Using previous averages the history was 3p dividend annually, so between 2010 and 2018, they have given you 24p of lost dividendper share on top of the loss of £1.11 a share in value lost since 2010.

 

If a shareholder had bought R2987 1934 Brighton Belle 2 car in 2010 instead of shares, from discount retailers at £157 , today they could sell it on ebay at £145, losing only £12.

 

If they had spent that £157 on 110 Hornby shares, today they are looking at a valuation of £34.10.

 

They haven’t just sacrificed dividend, they subsidised the 2 car Belle (at discount rate) to the tune of £123.90 + £24.60 in lost dividends on 110 shares, total =£148.50, that’s only £8.50 away from the discounted rate asking price at launch, and then there’s the same equation for the coaches... 3x rrp £45/ discount £37...

 

Hornbys done well to keep this years Belle at a discounted £300 (rrp £375) , when 8 years ago it was discounted at £268 (rrp £325).

 

Buying a Brighton Belle was a good investment, by a long way..

 

That said, I had to twin motor my units and swap the male/female connectors to get it to run on my layout ...and that’s with the original R2987/8 version too... that cost saving must explain why those 2010 investors have still have £8.50 of their £157 investments left.

Edited September 11, 2018 by adb968008

[JSpencer]

Does the shoe beams on this version sit just above main rail height (like the HALs and BILs) or slightly higher just above the 3rd rail height like the VEPs and class 71.

 

Note: on the HALs and BILs, they are just below 3rd rail height like as if in completely dropped position but as they are correctly spaced width wise, they sit just outside my 3rd rails. I had to remove some 3rd rail sections where it curved off for point work though. The 71 sits above 3rd rail height but is also at correct width and sits outside the 3rd rail. The VEP (and Bachmann's EMUs) sit directly above the 3rd rail at OO gauge width. Dapol and Lima 73s  seem to have the shoes in raised/retracted position.

Edited September 11, 2018 by JSpencer

[Phatbob]

Does the shoe beams on this version sit just above main rail height (like the HALs and BILs) or slightly higher just above the 3rd rail height like the VEPs and class 71.

 

Note: on the HALs and BILs, they are just below 3rd rail height like as if in completely dropped position but as they are correctly spaced width wise, they sit just outside my 3rd rails. I had to remove some 3rd rail sections where it curved off for point work though. The 71 sits above 3rd rail height but is also at correct width and sits outside the 3rd rail. The VEP (and Bachmann's EMUs) sit directly above the 3rd rail at OO gauge width. Dapol and Lima 73s  seem to have the shoes in raised/retracted position.

There is no third rail in the fiddleyard, so that's not the cause of the problem.

 

for the record, the only rolling stock that has given issues with shoe / third rail interface on Star Lane is the Bachmann EPBs.  Filing a slight chamfer on the  leading edges of the shoe solves the problem.  Interestingly, the Bachmann 4CEPs have neaver had any issues.

[JSpencer]

There is no third rail in the fiddleyard, so that's not the cause of the problem.

for the record, the only rolling stock that has given issues with shoe / third rail interface on Star Lane is the Bachmann EPBs. Filing a slight chamfer on the leading edges of the shoe solves the problem. Interestingly, the Bachmann 4CEPs have neaver had any issues.

I had my 1934 edition running, slight derailment issue with the second bogie on the powered car coming off on one set of points. I think the coupling on the first coach is lifting it slightly and might need straightening (or a little extra weight in the rear of the powered coach).

 

My couplings are different to yours using an electrical 4 pin plug and clip, so the close coupling functions correctly. These coaches are light, so maybe the close coupling system is not quite functioning correctly with tension locks.

 

I,ve done some comparison of the shoe beams on my EMUs.

System 1 - sits outside the 3rd rail and shoe is just below the height. This covers BELs, HALs and BILs.

System 2 - sits outside above the 3rd rail height, covers VEPs and 71s

System 3 - sits above the 3rd rail, EPBs and 416s

 

Those on systems 1 and 2 really jar the mind. 3 looks ok.

 

Some pics:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit : oh dear upside down pics again!

Edited September 12, 2018 by JSpencer

[miles73128]

I really like mine! And overall a much better coupling arrangement than the fixed, previous system. BUT, the drag is much more noticable.

Not sure what the issue is. Mine will pull an additional nine Pullman cars, as well as the full Belle set.

[adb968008]

So ive bought it, a Bargain for £217 for the R3606 two car, and R4871 trailers, one of ebays finer moments.

 

So onto the track, and my unprototypical stupendous gradient that if t can safely climb, then the model can run anything anywhere...

 

So how did it do...

https://youtu.be/5qRLoTCi84c

It didnt, not even its own single powered first car... thats right as a 2 car it wouldnt pull itself up this hill. As a mark of how bad this is, the only other model i have owned that was incapable of pulling itself and 1 coach up this hill was Dapols 150/2 from the 1990’s, which is probably the worst model out there ever made.

 

So off with the body.. in with 150g of weight...

No difference.

The chassis itself is metal, as is the frame holding the motor, although its rather lightweight Hornby seems to have added the max that they can.

 

I then went through each coach. At first i thought Hornby cheaped out-by only having 1 set of pickups on each coach, now i realise this was done to reduce rolling resistance (drag).

I found several wheels out of gauge, all were free rolling, and I loosened the pickup wires a little...

No benefit, no help, the unit failed as per the above video.

 

Time to get serious... OFF With Your Bogie...

 

 

The bogie looks like its from the railroad range, used on the Upgraded Lima models.

 

Time for tyres...

 

My first though was to slip in a Lima bogie, but the cog on the outside prevents a fit, the Lima axle is 3mm wide, the Belle Axle is 2mm, so next up..

 

VEP me up AC..

 

I ordered a set of VEP bogie wheels from ACmodels in Eastleigh..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/X6310-Hornby-Spare-WHEEL-SET-DRIVE-UNIT-for-VEP/131458185524?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

 

 

The wheel on the left is the standard 14.1mm wheel used on Hornby coaches, on a 2mm axle for the Belle, with gear cog. The wheel on the right is a suspiciously Lima-esque looking 14mm wheel on a 3mm axle with the same cog / gear size and teeth as used on Hornbys VEP.

 

Although the wheelsize and gear cog is the same, the axle is thicker.

I drilled out the wheel clip (one on the left is undrilled, one of the right was drilled), by placing a 2.4mm drill bit into each axle box, turning on the drill for a few seconds only untill the whole opened enough for the drill to drop in.

 

Drop fitted both wheel sets from the VEP in..

 

 

And gave it a whirl... (although the 150g weight is still in, in this video, trust me it made no difference)... the traction tyres using VEP wheels give this unit considerable grip and performance improvement, but only up to the limits of the motor, which in this unit is a bit lower than most others in a non-railroad market.

https://youtu.be/pN7sOMOY-Dc

 

Although it still fails on the climb, it is substantially more respectable and stalls out rather than slips to a stand. Whilst it has been defeated on this gradient, it will work on all my other gradients and so I give this solution a thumbs up. Ultimately I feel this unit is now Railroad quality.. it will do but only at the near 50% discount price I paid for it.

 

Given the AC models have sold 22 pairs of these wheels already, I guess i’m not the first to discover this solution.

 

If I really want it on this hill, and curve, next step is removing coach pickups and thru wiring from the end cars... but isnt that what this unit was originally design with when first released ?

 

Now to put back on the bits that came off.

Edited September 26, 2018 by adb968008

[JSpencer]

The motor bogies on these were the same as the HAL and BIL. No problem with mine - first run model - shifting its train of 5.