Bachmann 2018 mid-year update

[johnlambert]

Exactly. Why issue something in a less-popular livery - crimson and cream - when the market overwhelmingly prefers maroon? (or BR green as per the forthcoming Bulleids). People won't wait around if a competitor produces something similar in the meantime in the livery they want.

 

What worries me about Bachmann is their product spread - I can understand their prevalence of diesels, after all, like garlic bread, they're the future. But to issue a 121 after Dapol have sated the market and produce a Class 24/1 after SLW have significantly raised the bar with their skinheads? There doesn't appear to be a very joined-up thinking in their future strategy.

 

And remind me how much the price of a mineral wagon has risen in 5 years....

 

In terms of livery choice, I have to admit the Bachmann ruse worked on me.  I do transition era N gauge; when Graham Farish released the Hawksworth coaches in crimson/cream I bought one or two, to flesh out a mixed rake of maroon Mk1s reflecting similar rakes of mkxed liveries and coach types seen in photos.  Later, I decided to get some of the GWR chocolate/cream Hawksworth coaches, because you did get trains of mixed stock with pre and post nationalisation liveries.  Ultimately I think I bought one of each type of coach in each livery from the production run (SK, CK and BSK plus the BG that is only available in crimson/cream).  If the maroon coaches had come out first I'd have bought a set of four maroon coaches and might not have bought as many of the other liveries.  So Bachmann has sold me eleven coaches rather than five or six, effectively doubling the number of units sold.  Repeat my behaviour across a few hundred, or a thousand modellers and it must add up to a worthwhile business strategy.

[Covkid]

 

I restate the case regarding Bachmann not producing the two most common Brush Type 4 prototypes (not to mention the single most common Class 45/ 46 version):

1. Green with small yellow panel and Serck louvres
2. Blue with glazed black headcode panels (roller blinds or dominoes) and Serck louvres

 

 

One hundred per cent agree "'chard".

 

AFAIK there has only been one GSYP class 47 model from Bachmann and that has incorrectly sized / shaped yellow panels.  After years of waiting for another release I have recently bought a D1670 from Kernow and ordered some boiler grilles from Shawplan. My intention is to "T cut" the "Mammoth" names off, then give it some careful bodyside and roof grime to represent an LM (WL) example - something like D1850.     

[frobisher]

Look at the 4 Cep a few years ago Hatton's where selling them for £69.99, Do you think shops like Hatton's are taking a hit on sales, I don't think so.

So i wonder what the mark up is for them to be able to sell them at that price and not loss money?.

Storage of goods has a cost, so clearing shelf space for new stock can and is figured into sale prices. So some of that stock could well be sold below cost, but in doing so provides a delta for the shop's VAT returns etc., but more importantly provides cash flow. £1,000 pounds of stock sitting on a shelf for 2-3 years is £1,000 not earning a return. Sell it for £900 then that's £900 that can be put into faster moving stock and might get you a £1500 return in shorter order.

[PMP]

But to issue a 121 after Dapol have sated the market and produce a Class 24/1 after SLW have significantly raised the bar with their skinheads? There doesn't appear to be a very joined-up thinking in their future strategy.

I’m a potential buyer of both these models and derivatives. What evidence is there that the market has been sated by either of those models? I’ve not bought the Dapol DMU’s (yet), I’m not keen on their internal detailing, if Bachmann’s is better then I’ll likely buy their version. The 121 has clear links to other DMU’s both in development (117) and potentially others, so some production costs can be spread over a range of models.

 

SLW’s 24 is excellent but arguably expensive, which may be why they haven’t become common on layouts. If Bachmann’s version is as good, or close to it, and early EP’s look good, then they’ll likely sell very well, assuming the price is less or looks better value for money compared to SLW’s. Then of course the links to the other 24/25 variants that can share the burden of R&D/production costs. I think it unlikely the other 24/25’s won’t be refreshed, even allowing for Heljans model. I’m again a likely purchaser of the 24/25 family, I’ve not bought the SLW version as I’ve been waiting for Bachmann’s release which I have reason to believe will be excellent, and good value for money. In the meantime I roll my own.

 

Then there’s brand loyalty, a proportion of the market buy as collectors, or only if manufacturer X makes it, as others aren’t good enough. You’d have thought the 37 market would be sated, the Rep specials indicate otherwise, and some still want a ‘definitive ’ 37. To me it makes the 121/24 selection a sensible commercial decision.

Edited September 12, 2018 by PMP

[AMJ]

The other advantage that manufacturers like Bachmann have is that if they do the same item of rolling stock in different scales the R&D costs for prototype drawings can be spread between the scales.  Possibly 2/3 OO 1/3 N.

 

If a retailer had purchased say 100 locos at £75 (cost £7500) to sell at £100 each and they have sold 75 (income £7500).  As was mentioned when we were trading potentially you can then sell the last 25 for £1 as anything you get is your profit!  This is why you might have a trader selling an older £100 item for £50.  (£50 * 25 = £1250 profit before tax) Ultimately this turns stock into cash that can then be used for other uses.

[Scottish-Exile]

Then there’s brand loyalty, a proportion of the market buy as collectors, or only if manufacturer X makes it, as others aren’t good enough. You’d have thought the 37 market would be sated, the Rep specials indicate otherwise, and some still wasn’t a ‘definite’ 37. To me it makes the 121/24 selection a sensible commercial decision.

 

That's true for me. In the past year or so I've sold 15 Class 37's (8 Lima, 7 ViTrains) and now maintain a fleet of 10 Class 37's. All by Bachmann and 1 solitary ViTrains that I keep for sentimental reasons.

[Downer]

Where’s the proof that maroon is more popular than crimson/cream? Personally, I’m still waiting for a crimson/cream inspection saloon.

[Ouroborus]

Is there any evidence that a 4CEP sold at £69 is sold at a loss or is this just speculation?

[Covkid]

Then there’s brand loyalty, a proportion of the market buy as collectors, or only if manufacturer X makes it, as others aren’t good enough. You’d have thought the 37 market would be sated, the Rep specials indicate otherwise, and some still wasn’t a ‘definite’ 37. To me it makes the 121/24 selection a sensible commercial decision.

 

Agree, but I also think that an increasing number of people who are buying RTR models, are buying them so they don't have to purchase Fox, Shawplan, Railmatch products (del as appropriate). Certainly the DCC bells and whistles lighting and sound is increasing in popularity, but if Bachmann can wheel out another Reggie Rail or Mainline 37/4 the punters will surely buy it ?

 

It is about the manufacturer offering choice without compromising their own position IMHO

[NickL2008]

Is there any evidence that a 4CEP sold at £69 is sold at a loss or is this just speculation?

 

I got my Green with SYP Bachmann 4CEP from the closing Modelzone in Derby back around 5 years ago at a mere £58, so if you look around and keep an eye out, you can find bargains like that

 

NL

[stewartingram]

Simple maths:

 

Trade price £5, Retail price £10. Retailer buys 10 of them. He pays £50.

To break even, he must sell 5 of them at £10 each.

If he sells 6, he makes £10 profit. 7, he makes £20, and so on. 

If he sells the last one at £1, he has made £41 profit in total.

Did he actually sell number 10 at a loss?

 

Stewart

[Mike Storey]

Agree, but I also think that an increasing number of people who are buying RTR models, are buying them so they don't have to purchase Fox, Shawplan, Railmatch products (del as appropriate). Certainly the DCC bells and whistles lighting and sound is increasing in popularity, but if Bachmann can wheel out another Reggie Rail or Mainline 37/4 the punters will surely buy it ?

 

It is about the manufacturer offering choice without compromising their own position IMHO

 

There is some truth in that. I have bought kit versions of some of the EMU's I need (originally from MTK, but then Southern Pride), but they all required additional purchases from detailing specialists (and considerable extra work on top of building the kit) to get even close to the level of detail and functionality that recent RTR has made available. My efforts are not even close (especially painting and levelling between vehicles), but that is my fault.

 

There was (and still is) an option to buy RTR, basically made-up kits, from the likes of Britannia Pacific, but at considerable cost, and without the detail and functionality of modern RTR from Bachmann (unless you are prepared to pay even more for someone to add this for you, or you are prepared to hack about an already very expensive model).

 

It is regrettable in a major way, that small companies were prepared to take the gamble to produce things that people wanted, which the big boys ignored for so long, but which are now being eclipsed by modern methods. Perhaps it is unrealistic to hope that small companies can react to that, but it has happened in the larger scales - in 16mm, we have so many new kit specialists with an extraordinary range, at levels of detail but often at prices highly competitive to, the likes of Accucraft - that I would hope that maybe we shall not see their demise.

[The Johnster]

I got my Green with SYP Bachmann 4CEP from the closing Modelzone in Derby back around 5 years ago at a mere £58, so if you look around and keep an eye out, you can find bargains like that

 

NL

 

Modelzone is gone forever, and so have the bargains you could find 5 years ago.  Pricing has been held down by market forces in the model railway RTR world for decades, and is now 'normalising' at levels comparable, inflation taken into account, with what they would have been for models of such quality before the arrival on the scene of Airfix, Mainline, and Lima to a lesser extent, blew Triang Hornby out of the water and almost destroyed it as a serious player outside the train set market 40 years ago.  No such detailed and finely engineered models existed RTR for the UK market then, but the prices of them had they done so would have probably equalled to what we are approaching; £20 wagons, £50 coaches, and £150 tank engines before you factor in DCC.

 

Trust me, no matter what sort of eye you keep out, you won't find bargains like that any more!

[adb968008]

Simple maths:

 

Trade price £5, Retail price £10. Retailer buys 10 of them. He pays £50.

To break even, he must sell 5 of them at £10 each.

If he sells 6, he makes £10 profit. 7, he makes £20, and so on.

If he sells the last one at £1, he has made £41 profit in total.

Did he actually sell number 10 at a loss?

 

Stewart

Depends, if he has VAT, postage, Council tax, business rates, staff salaries, insurance, electric, mortgage, van, credit card fees and a salary for himself to pay... and assumes none are broken / need returning, paying for return postage (buyers too)... and if he did make a profit out of just those 10.. HMRC will want a slice of it too. All that assumes the models were purchased for cash, not credit.

 

The difference of the individual sale is the sale price minus the cost price, the balance goes to a portion of the overheads of the business.. only when all the overheads are covered can you truly say a profit has been made.

 

If your sat on a mountain of stock, it doesn’t mean your rich or profitable, probably the opposite.

Edited September 12, 2018 by adb968008

[PMP]

Trust me, no matter what sort of eye you keep out, you won't find bargains like that any more!

https://www.hattons.co.uk/98088/Hornby_R3341_Class_2_HAL_2_Car_EMU_2677_in_BR_blue/StockDetail.aspx

[The Johnster]

https://www.hattons.co.uk/98088/Hornby_R3341_Class_2_HAL_2_Car_EMU_2677_in_BR_blue/StockDetail.aspx

 

That told me, didn't it!

[locoholic]

Where’s the proof that maroon is more popular than crimson/cream? Personally, I’m still waiting for a crimson/cream inspection saloon.

Going by posts on various threads on RMWeb, there are far more "I'm still waiting for xxxx in maroon". Very few similar ones wanting crimson & cream.

 

Also, crimson & cream coaches regularly turn up in the bargain bins - maroon coaches hardly ever do.

[Covkid]

Where’s the proof that maroon is more popular than crimson/cream? Personally, I’m still waiting for a crimson/cream inspection saloon.

 

 

Going by posts on various threads on RMWeb, there are far more "I'm still waiting for xxxx in maroon". Very few similar ones wanting crimson & cream.

 

Also, crimson & cream coaches regularly turn up in the bargain bins - maroon coaches hardly ever do.

 

Can't offer any proof, just opinion and personal preference. I am convinced that the vast majority of UK railway modellers choose British Railways / British Rail / Privatisation as their modelling subject. Yes, crimson and cream is a BR livery and the odd few C and C liveried vehicles may have run behind diesels. There will be modellers and collectors who indulge in pre 1948, but I am convinced choice of era is gradually advancing as generation succeeds generation.  Agree with "locoholic" on this.   

[rembrow]

Maroon livery occurs in one of those modelling 'sweetheart' eras where there are significant changes occurring in rolling stock and traction type. So that you have the mixture of steam, diesel and electric traction and liveries of dmu green, emu green, mainline diesel green, electric blue, maroon coaches, southern region green coaches and western choc and cream. So the variety is enormous.

For those of us in our 60s, who are probably the current main purchasing group, we grew up in the 1960s and our first interest in railways were in the maroon etc period. My family moved to near Watford in 1963 and I went to school in St Albans, so my railway interest started on both the ex Euston mainline and St Pancras Midland mainline and I saw all of those stock and livery variations. When visiting rekatives who lived near Birmingham we had to catch express services from Euston that stopped at Watford. These were in 1964 maroon coaches with green Class 40 traction, which were changed at IIRC Nuneaton for ohe electric blue traction.

[Dunsignalling]

https://www.hattons.co.uk/98088/Hornby_R3341_Class_2_HAL_2_Car_EMU_2677_in_BR_blue/StockDetail.aspx

And they are that cheap for the simple reason that everybody who specifically wanted a 2-HAL in BR blue has already bought all they require.

 

These will slowly dribble away to the conversionistas and those who just want a train for the kids that's better than Smokey Joe but cheap enough not to worry when the finer details get knocked off.  

 

Hornby simply made more than would sell in a reasonable timescale and Hatton's are doing what is known in the book trade as remaindering.

 

John

 

EDIT: Just to drag this vaguely back on-topic, they have done, and will continue to do, the same sort of thing for Bachmann.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[PMP]

 

EDIT: Just to drag this vaguely back on-topic, they have done, and will continue to do, the same sort of thing for Bachmann.

Which was my point.

 

The previous post to mine said these deals were no longer available, yet they are and not just from Hattons. You have to be lucky that what’s available at these prices is what you’re after, but the deals are out there if you look.

https://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/locomotives-steam/Bachmann-31-980-br-standard-class-3mt-tank-82020-br-green-l-crest-weathered/

https://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/rolling-stock-freight/Bachmann-38-677-gwr-shunters-truck-gwr-grey-old-oak-common/

[brushman47544]

AFAIK there has only been one GSYP class 47 model from Bachmann and that has incorrectly sized / shaped yellow panels.  After years of waiting for another release I have recently bought a D1670 from Kernow and ordered some boiler grilles from Shawplan. My intention is to "T cut" the "Mammoth" names off, then give it some careful bodyside and roof grime to represent an LM (WL) example - something like D1850.     

 

I'm not sure it's fair to discount a model just because it's a limited edition, although I agree a GSYP with Sercks should warrant a standard release.

 

But a question if I may. I have the Kernow D1670 but haven't noticed anything "wrong", so are the Shawplan boiler grilles to enhance what's there or to correct an "error" for the boiler type you want to model?

[stewartingram]

Depends, if he has VAT, postage, Council tax, business rates, staff salaries, insurance, electric, mortgage, van, credit card fees and a salary for himself to pay... and assumes none are broken / need returning, paying for return postage (buyers too)... and if he did make a profit out of just those 10.. HMRC will want a slice of it too. All that assumes the models were purchased for cash, not credit.

 

The difference of the individual sale is the sale price minus the cost price, the balance goes to a portion of the overheads of the business.. only when all the overheads are covered can you truly say a profit has been made.

 

If your sat on a mountain of stock, it doesn’t mean your rich or profitable, probably the opposite.

Read the 1st line? Simple maths - just explaining the basic principles. We all know there are extra complications involved.

 

Stewart

[The Johnster]

If people in their 60s are the largest single group of modellers (and that sounds as if it could well be right), I am among them, bucking a lifelong trend of being the odd man out...

 

The nostalgia for an idealised railway of my youth, green diesels, maroon coaches, ferrets and dartboards is a strong pull, but I have resisted it; it also represents a time of decay for steam to me that I do not really want to reproduce in 4mm scale.  I have, instead, opted for the railway I just missed out on, the one of my very early childhood memory; pre-diesel, unicycling lions, and crimson and cream stock, crimson away from the main line.  I did this as a conscious effort to include the various Big 4 and very early BR liveries, and my original time frame was set at 1948-1963.  It has evolved, if you can use that term for something that goes backwards, to 1948-1958, and I am in the process of repainting my lined green locos and lined maroon coaches into earlier liveries.  I could not say if this is an expression of a further attempt to psychologically distance myself from the dying years of steam, and, the layout being set in South Wales, it may well be a hankering for the look and atmosphere of childhood visits to various rellies that lived in the Rhonddas, Fach and Fawr, which I remember with great fondness.  But even these memories date from the late 50s or early 60s rather than the period I am increasingly drawn to on the layout.

 

What information of any use to RTR manufacturers doing market research for liveries there is in this rambling screed is anyone's guess, but they are welcome to use it as they will.  More postwar and austerity liveries, please, especially on rolling stock!

Edited September 13, 2018 by The Johnster

[GreenGiraffe22]

Re: age groups and popular eras, this poll was run a while ago as there was a lot of debate at the time about what people model and why, it by no means gives a definitive answer, but the results are interesting =)

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129998-unscientific-not-guaranteed-to-be-representative-age-versus-modelled-era-poll/page-1

Edited September 13, 2018 by GreenGiraffe22