Trouble at the AGM?

[classy52]

That’s bonkers. The *only* model railway brand that most “normals” know is Hornby.

 

So the kiddy/ beginner/ low-fi stuff should use that, while a more premium brand can relatively easily be developed for the buyers who want premium products (the equivalent of “Lexis” for Toyota).

 

It would also cost very much less to develop a new premium brand for us, than a new consumer brand for the entire country.

 

Paul

 

Well that's your opinion but I wouldn't say it's bonkers, did you throw your papers up in the air or anything nearby 

You still have Hornby but more specifically Hornby Kids or Hornby Junior that encompasses all their Railroad, Junior & Thomas products together but away from the super detailed range and then you market both brands as such...or they continue as they are and perhaps ride off into the sunset.

Edited November 27, 2018 by classy52

[Fenman]

Well that's your opinion but I wouldn't say it bonkers, did you throw your papers up in the air or anything nearby 

You still have Hornby and specifically Hornby Kids or Hornby Junior that encompasses all their Railroad, Junior & Thomas products together but away from the super detailed range...and then you market both brands as such.

 

Well now I'm bewildered: is it that you want to call everything Hornby, but just add a different suffix?

 

To use a car analogy:

 

- do you want Ford Ka and Ford Fiesta and Ford Mondeo - each a Ford, but each with a different market position? Or...

 

- do you want Toyota for the cheap and bog-standard, and Lexis for luxury?

 

I'd suggest the latter is absolutely clear, while the former risks "contamination" between the brands - which is exactly what most RMWebbers are already complaining about on here.

 

Paul

[classy52]

Well now I'm bewildered: is it that you want to call everything Hornby, but just add a different suffix?

 

To use a car analogy:

 

- do you want Ford Ka and Ford Fiesta and Ford Mondeo - each a Ford, but each with a different market position? Or...

 

- do you want Toyota for the cheap and bog-standard, and Lexis for luxury?

 

I'd suggest the latter is absolutely clear, while the former risks "contamination" between the brands - which is exactly what most RMWebbers are already complaining about on here.

 

Paul

 

I am also bewildered by your comparisons with the car industry...anyway.

Yes I am saying that you have Hornby and a separate division for the kids market and yes it is that simple.

Under the Hornby brand you could tout the following;

 

Hornby Signature (just 1 example)

Hornby Kids or Hornby Junior

 

It's just an idea and yes it is a simple one that may work out to be quite effective with a brand re-structure, but you would also have to include everything Charlie Petty mentioned.

I get it you hate the idea and probably many others also because to you Hornby is just that...Hornby and nothing else not even with another suffix thus to re-brand or re-market it is pure sacrilege 

Edited November 27, 2018 by classy52

[Legend]

It’s just a shame the Triang name is not available. That could be used as the “railroad” range . Maybe Triang Railways could be used.

 

I think there is a market for a lower priced range. With the commissioners coming in at £160 (Deltic/class66) and Bachmann even higher than that , they have essentially deserted the lower cost/detail market. It does still exist. Have a look at YouTube if you doubt this . At the moment it’s migrated to second hand , which I suppose is the competition in this market. I keep on saying a range of models that people see today Pendolino , 66, 156, 170,emu hoppers with play features etc at reasonable prices would sell

[Legend]

One of the other bits of interesting news I picked up from a local trader was that Hornby knocked out literally years worth of the Thomas range before cancelling the licensing deal. No idea if that is true but Thomas may be more available than you think.

 

Smart if they did .  Any advert I've seen does say something like last chance to buy . So they are not advertising products you cant get

 

Having just caught up with the results I have to say they look pretty poor . Huge drop in sales(-11%) and really only slight increase in margins (+3%) to compensate .  The comment about ordering the 2019 range earlier is good, but didn't they say something similar last year? If they can establish a steady reliable supply partners (with adequate back up so all eggs are not in the one basket, then that's got to be good .  But it needs to happen now. The strongest feeling I get from this is that times running out.

 

By the way , reference is made to a years supply of cheap track. Where's this then? I don't remember seeing huge discounts . I always thought this was one of Hornbys prime sellers . It must be relatively cheap to manufacture , not labour intensive, but sells at fairly high prices . I would have thought this was one of their cash cows.   Puzzling

Edited November 27, 2018 by Legend

[The Stationmaster]

It’s just a shame the Triang name is not available. That could be used as the “railroad” range . Maybe Triang Railways could be used.

 

I think there is a market for a lower priced range. With the commissioners coming in at £160 (Deltic/class66) and Bachmann even higher than that , they have essentially deserted the lower cost/detail market. It does still exist. Have a look at YouTube if you doubt this . At the moment it’s migrated to second hand , which I suppose is the competition in this market. I keep on saying a range of models that people see today Pendolino , 66, 156, 170,emu hoppers with play features etc at reasonable prices would sell

 

I think they would somehow have to keep the Hornby name across any sub-division of brands or ranges because it is really their sole selling point to a significant chunk of what they think are their markets - many folk see the name Hornby as synonymous with 'toy trains' almost in the way that every vacuum cleaner is 'a Hoover' to various older generations.  So Hornby has to sit there as the entry brand to attract and meet the wider market whether it's with a suffix of 'Railroad' or not.  The premium brand area deservedly can compete with the best in r-t-r, especially with decent quality control to back up the high level of detail etc but it still has to say 'Hornby' somewhere in order to maintain the link in the customer's mind and provide continuity.

 

So maybe something like, say, 'Hornby Gold' but not 'Hornby Premium' as that implies too much about price which while it might be right wouldn't be a good selling point.  

 

But there is another key factor in all of this and l that is getting rid of the blurred edges between the two 'levels' of product which seemed as much as anything to be a by-product of design clever and the associated production cost cutting that was all too obvious in the results.  The creation of what has amounted to a third tier, between the other two, has muddied waters which in marketing terms were already becoming increasingly murky.  No reason at all though for them not to have a starter tier called something like 'Hornby Junior' as they have tried of late - if ot makes money for them then it is no bad thing. 

[robmcg]

I am out-of-step, again.

 

I never thought 'design clever' products were all that bad....

 

typo edit

Edited November 27, 2018 by robmcg

[classy52]

I think they would somehow have to keep the Hornby name across any sub-division of brands or ranges because it is really their sole selling point to a significant chunk of what they think are their markets - many folk see the name Hornby as synonymous with 'toy trains' almost in the way that every vacuum cleaner is 'a Hoover' to various older generations.  So Hornby has to sit there as the entry brand to attract and meet the wider market whether it's with a suffix of 'Railroad' or not.  The premium brand area deservedly can compete with the best in r-t-r, especially with decent quality control to back up the high level of detail etc but it still has to say 'Hornby' somewhere in order to maintain the link in the customer's mind and provide continuity.

 

So maybe something like, say, 'Hornby Gold' but not 'Hornby Premium' as that implies too much about price which while it might be right wouldn't be a good selling point.  

 

But there is another key factor in all of this and l that is getting rid of the blurred edges between the two 'levels' of product which seemed as much as anything to be a by-product of design clever and the associated production cost cutting that was all too obvious in the results.  The creation of what has amounted to a third tier, between the other two, has muddied waters which in marketing terms were already becoming increasingly murky.  No reason at all though for them not to have a starter tier called something like 'Hornby Junior' as they have tried of late - if ot makes money for them then it is no bad thing. 

 

Great minds think alike and pretty much what I said earlier, you & I must be bonkers 

[dibber25]

I am out-of-step, again.

 

I never thought 'design clever' products were all that bad....

 

typo edit

 

They weren't bad in most cases. The mistake was in drawing attention to it by giving it a name. (CJL)

[Steamport Southport]

It’s just a shame the Triang name is not available. That could be used as the “railroad” range . Maybe Triang Railways could be used.

 

I think there is a market for a lower priced range. With the commissioners coming in at £160 (Deltic/class66) and Bachmann even higher than that , they have essentially deserted the lower cost/detail market. It does still exist. Have a look at YouTube if you doubt this . At the moment it’s migrated to second hand , which I suppose is the competition in this market. I keep on saying a range of models that people see today Pendolino , 66, 156, 170,emu hoppers with play features etc at reasonable prices would sell

 

I'm pretty sure that Triang still exists as a brand name. Funnily enough used by Oxford.

 

https://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/collections/triang

 

 

One thing worth pointing out that if you type Hornby then the spellchecker accepts it. Typing Triang, it changes it to Triangle.

 

Even the spellchecker knows Hornby is a valid brand name.

 

 

 

Jason

[mdvle]

I am also bewildered by your comparisons with the car industry...anyway.

Yes I am saying that you have Hornby and a separate division for the kids market and yes it is that simple.

Under the Hornby brand you could tout the following;

 

Hornby Signature (just 1 example)

Hornby Kids or Hornby Junior

 

2 problems.

 

First, you are assuming the "railroad" range is aimed at kids and kids only.  It's not, while it is suitable for kids it is also aimed for those on a more limited budget or who just don't care about the details.  You could lose the adult market who are currently quite happy with your railroad based products by calling them Hornby Kids.

 

Second, our mythical grandparent (or parent) isn't religiously following the hobby and thus will not being paying attention when Hornby rebrands.  Thus, say in 5 years when grandparent now has a 10 year old grand(son/daughter) and said grandparent goes to store to purchase a train they aren't going to react well when asking for a Hornby train only to be told that what they really want is a Hornby (Kids/Jr/whatever) because that is not what they remember from their past, and hence not what they want.

 

This is why when a brand chooses the branding for a base line of product, and a higher quality of product, the higher quality product always gets the different branding.  And if the car examples don't work for you lets try 3 US train companies:

 

- Life Like, who launched their Proto 2000 line of higher detailed products while maintaining their existing Life Like trains (aka "railroad").

- Bachmann US, who launched Bachmann Spectrum of higher detailed products while still offering Bachmann.

- Athearn, who launched Athearn Genesis, as (you guessed it) their higher detailed products while maintaining Athearn products (they have sinced rebranded, but that was after 10 to 15 years).

[Steamysandy]

One of the interesting bits of hearsay I picked up at a local show was that Hornby actively discriminated against railway modellers when recruiting marketing staff in the 1970's. I wonder whether that was true and if so how long it lasted for?

This wouldn't surprise me.After all the management have got to show who's in charge no matter how incompetent they are.My own experience with a certain very large Telecom company led to me deciding that the promotion system worked on incompetence.

[classy52]

2 problems.

 

First, you are assuming the "railroad" range is aimed at kids and kids only.  It's not, while it is suitable for kids it is also aimed for those on a more limited budget or who just don't care about the details.  You could lose the adult market who are currently quite happy with your railroad based products by calling them Hornby Kids.

 

Second, our mythical grandparent (or parent) isn't religiously following the hobby and thus will not being paying attention when Hornby rebrands.  Thus, say in 5 years when grandparent now has a 10 year old grand(son/daughter) and said grandparent goes to store to purchase a train they aren't going to react well when asking for a Hornby train only to be told that what they really want is a Hornby (Kids/Jr/whatever) because that is not what they remember from their past, and hence not what they want.

 

This is why when a brand chooses the branding for a base line of product, and a higher quality of product, the higher quality product always gets the different branding.  And if the car examples don't work for you lets try 3 US train companies:

 

- Life Like, who launched their Proto 2000 line of higher detailed products while maintaining their existing Life Like trains (aka "railroad").

- Bachmann US, who launched Bachmann Spectrum of higher detailed products while still offering Bachmann.

- Athearn, who launched Athearn Genesis, as (you guessed it) their higher detailed products while maintaining Athearn products (they have sinced rebranded, but that was after 10 to 15 years).

 

Thus after a bit of discussion there is something we can agree on without calling you bonkers or niggling at your post and meet half way which is to keep the Hornby name as it is (covers Railroad/Junior/Thomas/Trainsets etc. aimed at the younger market and at a lower cost) to ensure the unassuming customer who walks into a shop or goes online won't be bamboozled by a Hornby re-brand but still have a separate high detailed Hornby division with names suggested already and/or as follows;

Hornby Signature

Hornby Gold

Hornby Platinum

Hornby First Class

Hornby Expert

Hornby Luxury

Hornby Super

Hornby Super Duper

Hornby You Can't Afford It (which means I'll buy it)

...etc.

[The Stationmaster]

This wouldn't surprise me.After all the management have got to show who's in charge no matter how incompetent they are.My own experience with a certain very large Telecom company led to me deciding that the promotion system worked on incompetence.

 

That is known as 'the Peter Principle'

 

Now back to Hornby.

[JeremyC]

Thus after a bit of discussion there is something we can agree on without calling you bonkers or niggling at your post and meet half way which is to keep the Hornby name as it is (covers Railroad/Junior/Thomas/Trainsets etc. aimed at the younger market and at a lower cost) to ensure the unassuming customer who walks into a shop or goes online won't be bamboozled by a Hornby re-brand but still have a separate high detailed Hornby division with names suggested already and/or as follows;

Hornby Signature

Hornby Gold

Hornby Platinum

Hornby First Class

Hornby Expert

Hornby Luxury

Hornby Super

Hornby Super Duper

Hornby You Can't Afford It (which means I'll buy it)

...etc.

Surprised no one has suggested Hornby Dublo Edited November 29, 2018 by JeremyC

[Paddy]

Just throwing something out there - couldn't Hornby use the Bassett Lowke brand for a premium range of models?  I know traditionally it has been used for O Gauge but it is a known brand (with modellers).

 

Paddy

[APOLLO]

Hornby Junior - already exists - aimed at juniors (!!)

 

Hornby Railroad - already exists - aimed at the "middle market" plus the above and below.

 

Hornby (whatever) - already exists (product that is - just a qualifying name needed. Detailed stuff aimed at the more advanced enthusiast.

 

The name Hornby is all important as far as brand marketing and image is concerned. 

 

Brit15

[Talltim]

(the equivalent of “Lexis” for Toyota).

Paul

The brand obviously hasn’t registered very well with you!

Seriously tho, I agree

[Fenman]

The brand obviously hasn’t registered very well with you!

Seriously tho, I agree

Ha! I actually initially had Lexis Nexis in my head because I was determined not to misspell the car company, and I was *sure* I had replaced it with Lexus...

 

The mind is a weird thing. Or maybe I mean *my* mind is a weird thing!

 

Paul

[Ozexpatriate]

We can talk about marketing strategies until we are blue in the face (and we have done so for many years).

 

There certainly were mistakes. "Design clever" branding was a mistake. The "Railroad" range was good in concept but poor in execution with too many essentially identical models in both ranges but for a bit of paint here or there. Using "design clever" approaches to cheap manufacturing in premium priced models was a big mistake.

 

None of these things are really the problem with Hornby. Any new premium item that they build will sell out. We know they can and do produce very nice models which are highly sort after by 'us' - the kind of enthusiasts, some of whom congregate here on RMweb.

 

Hornby's problems remain in the business fundamentals space and the financial legacy of trying to turn a business around after several years of poor results. Attributes of this include debts, cash flow, executive compensation and the operational details of how they manage their sales channels and production costs and choosing what volumes of which products to manufacture.

 

Right now their trade show presence and branding and marcom (marketing communications strategy) are not the underlying problem - after all they can sell all the new product that they make. Personally there is much they could do to improve in that arena, but I don't think those are the existential problems.

[The Stationmaster]

We can talk about marketing strategies until we are blue in the face (and we have done so for many years).

 

There certainly were mistakes. "Design clever" branding was a mistake. The "Railroad" range was good in concept but poor in execution with too many essentially identical models in both ranges but for a bit of paint here or there. Using "design clever" approaches to cheap manufacturing in premium priced models was a big mistake.

 

None of these things are really the problem with Hornby. Any new premium item that they build will sell out. We know they can and do produce very nice models which are highly sort after by 'us' - the kind of enthusiasts, some of whom congregate here on RMweb.

 

Hornby's problems remain in the business fundamentals space and the financial legacy of trying to turn a business around after several years of poor results. Attributes of this include debts, cash flow, executive compensation and the operational details of how they manage their sales channels and production costs and choosing what volumes of which products to manufacture.

 

Right now their trade show presence and branding and marcom (marketing communications strategy) are not the underlying problem - after all they can sell all the new product that they make. Personally there is much they could do to improve in that arena, but I don't think those are the existential problems.

 

I think they can sell new introductions - provided they get them right in marketing terms (subject, livery etc) but the problem has been that they haven't always got them right as stocks on retailers' shelves and stalls at shows quickly show.  this problem - to the extent it is a problem - is then compounded by poor judgement in respect of Year 2 and Year 3 releases some of which have well and truly bombed leaving them with surplus stock.  Equally re=releases of older models, which can sell, have also sometimes run into trouble because that is exactly what they are, re-releases of older models with the same running number - as some retailers will confirm because their pre-orders drop, or don't materialise, in such circumstances.

 

Thus they do have some marketing problems although from what various company reports have said at least LCD recognises that situation and is working towards tackling it.

 

But a big problem they now face, which the Half Year Report effectively acknowledges, is the way the supplier end of the market has changed coupled to the way the buying market has also changed.  If you want the customer's money you now have to make sure it is lined up to spend on your product and isn't diverted to e.g. an all singing & dancing 'ultimate Deltic' or an NER railcar etc and so on.  Attention distractors like those might represent relatively small amounts of money but when your own sales are declining, for whatever reason, surely no business can afford to lose its place and not give potential customers future attractions to plan for?  As I've already said if what I'm expecting from Hornby in 2019 turns out to still be in their programme they will get a goodly lot of my hard earned pension money next year despite the attractions (no, nor a Deltic ) - even to me - of various other offerings I could put money aside for so not have it there to spend with Hornby.

[Coach bogie]

It’s just a shame the Triang name is not available. That could be used as the “railroad” range . Maybe Triang Railways could be used.

 

I think there is a market for a lower priced range. With the commissioners coming in at £160 (Deltic/class66) and Bachmann even higher than that , they have essentially deserted the lower cost/detail market. It does still exist. Have a look at YouTube if you doubt this . At the moment it’s migrated to second hand , which I suppose is the competition in this market. I keep on saying a range of models that people see today Pendolino , 66, 156, 170,emu hoppers with play features etc at reasonable prices would sell

Would you really want to use 'Triang'? The association with toy trains has long gone.

 

In the 1980's during my toy marketing days, they were a client of mine. It was re christened 'Sharna Triang', named after the owners daughter, making cheap, plastic, ride on toys. 

 

That all folded and Plastoy now own the trade mark.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Bulleidboy100]

I really don't see the point in adding "Premium, Gold or Classic" to define the type of Hornby model. I would expect 99.9% of the members of this forum, whether they are physically entering a shop or buying online, to know exactly what they want before buying. The 00.01% will be the uncle or aunt who has been told little Jimmy wants a train for Christmas/birthday - and have no idea what they are buying - little Jimmy probably knows exactly what he wants. 

[Legend]

Yes you are probably correct about 99.9% of members of this forum. However remember not everyone’s a member of a forum . In fact Hornbys market is a good bit wider than this forum. Have a look at YouTube for a more representative sample , and even then I suspect we are only scratching the surface

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I am out-of-step, again. I never thought 'design clever' products were all that bad....

 That illustrates perfectly the breadth of requirements that Hornby - and the others -  have to satisfy. I only got to fiddle around with one example (and that on behalf of a friend, because none of the design clever product suited my modelling interest) and it was 'not clever' mechanically in my opinion.So for the potential purchaser such as myself who expects models to run for decades, not satisfactory.

 

...So maybe something like, say, 'Hornby Gold' but not 'Hornby Premium' as that implies too much about price which while it might be right wouldn't be a good selling point...

Some years past I suggested to their long term well known marketing exec. that the railway term of choice for demarcating their adult modeller oriented product range would be that once claimed by the LNWR. 

 

'Premier Line by Hornby'. Does that do anything for anybody?