N Gauge Poll?

[Tricky-CRS]

The best date is to coincide with the OO poll so you share advertising / promotion, manufacturers are planning well in advance so most want be reacting to the results of a particular years poll.

[tomparryharry]

May I suggest a compromise here?

 

Introduce an extra page into the poll, naming the 3 major gauges/scales. For instance:- 2mm- 4mm- 7mm

 

The polling items are still the same; still RTR.

 

I don't know how this sort of thinking with the polling team would work, after all, it is their time. The one great advantage is that RM Web does have a standardised formula, and it does work very well. At least, from where I'm looking.....

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

Edited October 24, 2018 by tomparryharry

[johnlambert]

Nice idea Ian but with some items available in N that are unavailable in OO (albeit only a few) and quite a few items available in OO that aren't available in N it means an N gauge person cannot vote for a Class 117 DMU because that's announced by Bachmann.  The 117 was, as I recall,one of the highest polling N gauge items.

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

John is right (above). The Class 117 was the second overall most wanted item; it polled 100 votes (just behind the Lord Nelson with 102).

 

In the 2016 Poll, there were just over 40 items that weren't in N but were in 00. In N, there just over 140 items that weren't in 00. We would have had to list hundreds of others to cover 0.

 

The 140+ were causing us the problem, so we departed from the subject as we couldn't do it justice (and that's not to mention any 'clouding effect' the dual-listing may have had on both).

 

In response to Ian (one post further up), we did explore various options - such as, restricting number of votes to x in any category; having a box to say it it was a priority item that voters wanted to see sooner rather than later; which magazines do voters read; do voters use DCC or not - but it all adds to the complexity.

 

Sometimes more is less.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[tomparryharry]

Hello everyone

 

John is right (above). The Class 117 was the second overall most wanted item; it polled 100 votes (just behind the Lord Nelson with 102).

 

In the 2016 Poll, there were just over 40 items that weren't in N but were in 00. In N, there just over 140 items that weren't in 00. We would have had to list hundreds of others to cover 0.

 

The 140+ were causing us the problem, so we departed from the subject as we couldn't do it justice (and that's not to mention any 'clouding effect' the dual-listing may have had on both).

 

In response to Ian (one post further up), we did explore various options - such as, restricting number of votes to x in any category; having a box to say it it was a priority item that voters wanted to see sooner rather than later; which magazines do voters read; do voters use DCC or not - but it all adds to the complexity.

 

Sometimes more is less.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

Hello Brian, thank you for your response.

 

My main point is this;- You've got a poll that works very well- don't change the format. My suggestion is to merely expand the scales involved. For instance, we might want to vote for locomotive X, but which scale?

 

as an 00-centric modeller, the existing poll works just fine for me. There's a list of consistent rules, and established practice. The scales don't need to be a barrier to creating what is already a very successful voting platform.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Ian

 

I understand your enthusiasm, but we'd need a box for every scale imaginable. And for some scales, there are hundreds (thousands?) of items voters wouldn't be able to vote for.

 

That means extra work for Andy setting it all up and extra work for us presenting the results.

 

Our stated purpose keeps us on track - and that is to provide an easy and enjoyable way for modellers and collectors to indicate which 00 models they would like to see made.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[njee20]

But as Brian's just said, it's not just as simple as expanding the scale, that makes no sense. You have to start with a list, your suggestion that you start with the OO gauge list and just 'expand for other scales' simply doesn't work - particularly if you include O gauge where the number of things that are available is minuscule compared to either N or OO. How do I vote for things I want in N that are already available in OO, are they in the list? How do you stop OO gauge people voting for an item which is already available but they perhaps didn't know.

 

Equally if you start with everything that doesn't exist in one scale or t'other then it's a massive list, literally thousands of items if you choose the lowest common denominator.

 

Brian's poll is excellent, totally agree, but I also fully understand his reasons for not continuing the N gauge one as it's not nearly as trivial as some may think. A small team of us are looking at an N gauge poll however, so watch this space.

 

Edit: cross posted with Brian above.

Edited October 25, 2018 by njee20

[BMacdermott]

Thanks njee20

 

As we note in The 00 Poll, we could list 30,000+  items.

 

All the very best with your efforts at setting up a 'new' N Poll - we have every hope that you will succeed! 

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[tomparryharry]

Hello Folks. Thank you for your points, and my apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

 

I may have mis-posted this, but I thought a straight filter would suffice "What's your scale?"

 

I think the 00 poll is fully fit for purpose, but I can't get my head around the same poll being used by a different scale. Hang on, I'll try again.....

 

So, Ian Smith, filled up with froth, enters the poll. He looks through the pre-poll notes. They're pretty much the same as previous years, so he's on familiar territory. A couple of rules changed, but roughly in line for the 2016 poll. Moving on....

 

Next, come a question page, "What is your scale?" A choice made here, takes you to that scale. (for me, that's 00. I like the other scales, but I'm into 00). 

 

Having made the choice, you're pretty much locked into the 00 poll. You'll see the well recognised  poll voting form. But, no other scales, you've made that choice a little way back.

 

These polls are identical: You'll see the same pannier tank. But, your desired filter has already played a major part. You're in 00 now.

 

Another voter has tapped the 2mm filter. Still the same poll, still a pannier tank, but you're in the 2mm zone.

 

Yet another voter has tapped the 7mm filter. Yet again, the pannier, but different scale filter.

 

I hope I've explained myself, but, it is only a view. Just looking at a way to include people who seem concerned they're might being excluded.

 

As I've said, the 00 poll works well for me. 30,000 items is a lot of spreadsheet. Well done poll team.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[njee20]

You've made yourself perfectly clear, but you need that starting point.

 

What if there's already a pannier tank in N and O, but not OO? Is it on the "master" list, but removed if you select N or O? What about the other way around, does selecting N gauge mean you get additional choices? You need to build that master list - given how little exists in RTR O where do you start? 20,000 items, most of which aren't shown if you select N or OO? Or do you say "the OO gauge one is defacto" which doesn't give any opportunity to vote for the many things that exist in OO but not N. So maybe people vote for that Pannier tank they want, but if only they'd had the option of the MPV, which is available only in OO it would have garnered ten times the votes.

 

What you're saying makes total sense, it just won't work!

Edited October 25, 2018 by njee20

[tomparryharry]

You've made yourself perfectly clear, but you need that starting point.

 

What if there's already a pannier tank in N and O, but not OO? Is it on the "master" list, but removed if you select N or O? What about the other way around, does selecting N gauge mean you get additional choices? You need to build that master list - given how little exists in RTR O where do you start? 20,000 items, most of which aren't shown if you select N or OO? Or do you say "the OO gauge one is defacto" which doesn't give any opportunity to vote for the many things that exist in OO but not N. So maybe people vote for that Pannier tank they want, but if only they'd had the option of the MPV, which is available only in OO it would have garnered ten times the votes.

 

What you're saying makes total sense, it just won't work!

Hello njee, good points.

 

I'm going on the presumption that the filter will sort out the scales very quickly. The big question is whether having the scale choice is the predominant choice. My predominant choice is 00, and I wouldn't vote out of scale. Call me narrow-minded, but I'm unlikely to vote for something I won't buy, because of the scale differences. I do like the other scales, and I'm appreciative of another modellers work. However, I won't shell out on things I don't need, on any scale.  I guess that anyone voting in say, 7mm, will attract only those participants within that scale.

 

The bottom line from me is this: I wouldn't find many 7mm modellers voting for a 2mm night owl in the normal scheme of things. Of course, there's always the exception that proves the rule!

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[HonestTom]

To be honest, I think given the complications of the filter, it would be easier just to have separate polls. You'd have to basically go through all the major scales, determine what people might vote for and plot what's available in each scale. Then you have the fact that some scales are so underserved relative to others - for instance, there are no BR Standards available in O gauge from any major manufacturer, but putting "BR Standards" in the OO poll would be a waste of time when most are covered already. Then how far do you go with scales? There are a lot of scales and gauges that have little or no RTR available.

 

The only really useful data I could see arising from a combined poll would be the question of how many modellers there are in each scale - although given that many modellers dabble in more than one scale, a filter might not be best suited to this purpose.

[njee20]

You're focusing on the wrong element Ian. The scale selection is a huge red herring - I agree that people will complete the scale relevant for them - completing multiple surveys as necessary, that's not what I'm talking about. 

 

You need either 1 master list with 'flags' in the back end to say which scales it applies to, whereby a single poll starts with a user selecting their scale and the 'flagged' items being returned in a list, a user wanting to complete for different scales just does so twice. That requires some technical build, and a monstrous database of items linked to scale, particularly if you do O gauge as I said. It also needlessly couples what are effectively three different polls.

 

Alternatively you have three separate lists, which will obviously have a lot of commonality (at least with N and OO), but won't be the same. This is where we are, and not unreasonably given it's not their area of expertise the OO gauge poll team didn't feel they could do the N gauge one justice. As a OO gauge modeller do you know which models aren't available in N and thus don't feature on the OO gauge list? What about those that we have that aren't on the OO gauge list? That's the work, the format you present to the end user is pretty moot, it's the actual starting point that is the laborious part! Simply giving the OO gauge list and saying "which scale are you answering for?" is pretty useless.

 

Digressing slightly, personally I think that O gauge just isn't really mature enough to justify a full wishlist poll. Who do you define as the manufacturers who already have products? Do you include kits? What about people building bespoke at £500 a wagon/coach - are they RTR in the true spirit of it? Should you restrict the items as the number will be vast versus the smallest number of respondents.

 

I'll leave it there, like I say, it's being looked at.

Edited October 25, 2018 by njee20

[tomparryharry]

You're focusing on the wrong element Ian. The scale selection is a huge red herring - I agree that people will complete the scale relevant for them - completing multiple surveys as necessary, that's not what I'm talking about. 

 

You need either 1 master list with 'flags' in the back end to say which scales it applies to, whereby a single poll starts with a user selecting their scale and the 'flagged' items being returned in a list, a user wanting to complete for different scales just does so twice. That requires some technical build, and a monstrous database of items linked to scale, particularly if you do O gauge as I said. It also needlessly couples what are effectively three different polls.

 

Alternatively you have three separate lists, which will obviously have a lot of commonality (at least with N and OO), but won't be the same. This is where we are, and not unreasonably given it's not their area of expertise the OO gauge poll team didn't feel they could do the N gauge one justice. As a OO gauge modeller do you know which models aren't available in N and thus don't feature on the OO gauge list? What about those that we have that aren't on the OO gauge list? That's the work, the format you present to the end user is pretty moot, it's the actual starting point that is the laborious part! Simply giving the OO gauge list and saying "which scale are you answering for?" is pretty useless.

 

Digressing slightly, personally I think that O gauge just isn't really mature enough to justify a full wishlist poll. Who do you define as the manufacturers who already have products? Do you include kits? What about people building bespoke at £500 a wagon/coach - are they RTR in the true spirit of it? Should you restrict the items as the number will be vast versus the smallest number of respondents.

 

I'll leave it there, like I say, it's being looked at.

 

The fact you're looking at it is a pretty positive reply.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[BMacdermott]

Hello again Ian

 

To concur with njee20 and expand on his comments…

 

The 00 Poll Team has given many hours of thought to running polls in the 10 years or so since we have been involved (originally on the periphery, but in the centre from 2012). The only way we can see of running a relatively (but not fully) comprehensive poll is:

 

A large spreadsheet for each of the scales - and there are lots of them, some with relatively few participants.

 

The vertical column down the left-hand side would show all the items to vote for (and we know that would be in the thousands).

 

The horizontal columns across the top (left to right) would cover every single day of every year from (say) 1800 to whatever the ‘go live’ date is.

 

That would enable people to vote for Loco Class X in livery Y with safety valves Z etc within their preferred date range – assuming they know exactly when that class was in that livery with those safety valves. How many would?

 

And you can bet your bottom dollar that nought point two of a second after we go live, an email will arrive saying:

 

Sirs

 

I am appalled and amazed that you failed to list the Diag.98/477 Ventilated Donut Van that ran on the Lordnoseware Harbour branch night freight for three weeks in 1923 before its untimely demise when it was derailed into the waters of the harbour.

 

Yours etc

 

Brigadier-General Sir Bertie Buckshott (a bigshot from Bagshot)

 

On our own thread (Q&A – The Wishlist Poll 2018) we have been told that the Industrial category isn’t useful due to its ‘generic listing style’. A reader has set up an Industrial thread to try to put forward some improvement opportunities.

 

A negative comparison was made that whilst we list Industrial ‘generically’, we list many items by specific type or diagram etc. That is true...but if you look at The Guide you will find many variants even in what appear ‘straightforward listings’.

 

Take the GWR Metro Tank (newly-listed this year). Which of the many permutations do voters actually want? Which of the wheelbases? Which of the different tank sizes? PP-fitted? Those without full cabs? And so on. To list it properly would take about 12 entries. 

 

Certain coaches are ‘straightforward listings’…but which livery would voters want? And would the majority want the ones transferred in later years to other regions (some repainted Maroon with W prefix etc)? Or sides as built or sides as repaired with strapping? Or original bucket seat interior? And so on.

 

I hope, Ian, that you will see that we are not evading the issue; simply being pragmatic. We always say that if someone can show us a better way, then it will get a fair hearing.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

Edited October 25, 2018 by BMacdermott

[Steven B]

Is there much point in an N Gauge Poll if the results for the last few years haven't changed much?

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team), would it be possible for you to publish the results from the last few years in a table/spread sheet. It would be interesting to see what (if any) changes there have been in the top ten requested models for steam loco, diesel loco, MU, coaches & wagons.

 

Given the relatively slow output from Farish and Dapol over the couple of years my guess is that there hasn't been much change.

 

Steven B.

[njee20]

You've got other brands too - Revolution, Accurascale, DJM. Bear in mind it's generally accepted that announced models are removed from the list, rather than just delivered ones.

[BMacdermott]

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team), would it be possible for you to publish the results from the last few years in a table/spread sheet. It would be interesting to see what (if any) changes there have been in the top ten requested models for steam loco, diesel loco, MU, coaches & wagons.

 

Given the relatively slow output from Farish and Dapol over the couple of years my guess is that there hasn't been much change.

 

Steven B.

 

Hello Steven 

 

Sorry for the slight delay in replying - your post managed to evade me until today.

 

Although we kept category comparison charts for 00 over the years, it was too much to do the same for N, I'm sorry to say.

 

However, we have - since 2014 - presented the results in three formats in N and 00, so I have attached the N Most Wanted Results here. We do have 2012 and 2013, but they are styled differently and might serve to confuse.

 

Hop that helps.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team

2014 Most Wanted - N.pdf

2015 Most Wanted - N.pdf

2016 Most Wanted - N.pdf

[HRH_Dan_Hull]

I would have thought that regardless of whether we are waiting for many models or not, an N gauge Poll would be useful to help shape the future of our hobby, likewise an O gauge might be helpful to the O gauge community. I know that 00 is the most popular scale but I do feel, politics aside, that singling out the poll to just 00 is perhaps a little like saying 'this is the only scale that matters to us on RMWeb'. I know that it isn't the case, but it feels that way. Even the simple poll question of 'which Bachmann product would you like to see added to the Farish range' could have created a valid poll question with useful data, but maybe it's up to Bachmann to be asking that, not RMWeb. In fact if Bachmann was to ask that, I believe it would interesting if they kept the data to themselves and only revealed it when the winning model(s) reached the painted pre-production sample stage!

Anyway, RMWeb, please include us N gauge people in the poll next time, surely the 00 folk have more than enough toys to play with now that they don't need any new products or even a poll?

[Andy Y]

I don't think you understand that the poll is organised by The Poll Team (which RMweb is not a member of - RMweb is part of a publishing business with 30,000+ members so it would be interesting to see how that would!d work!) and is run on our server.

 

Please go back and read the reasons why there wasn't an N gauge poll this time and reconsider your statement 'this is the only scale that matters to us on RMWeb'.

[BMacdermott]

Hello HRH

 

To concur with, and expand upon, what Andy has said above, please see the extract below from our thread entitled Advance Notice - The Wishlist Poll 2018. Additional to that, please see post#40 above.

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

Extracts only:

 

We are pleased to say that we are back for 2018 and The Poll will be hosted here on RMweb from early on Monday 15 October until midnight on Saturday 3 November. We hope to publish the results within a few days of closing. Andy York – who constructs ‘the computerised aspects’ for us – has no ‘influence’ on the content and kindly acts as a volunteer in his own time.

 

What’s new for 2018?

 

We have much that’s new – and we’ll explain that further in the next section – but first some N news.

 

About 70% of our effort was going to the N Poll, but it was only attracting about 20% of the voters. Added to this, our ‘lead role’, Brian Macdermott, now has more restrictions placed on his available time – he is a ‘carer’ for his disabled wife – so we have taken the decision to not run N.

 

But all is not lost! Discussions are in hand for another group to take that on in the future using our Guide notes as a basis.

Edited November 3, 2018 by BMacdermott

[BMacdermott]

Hello again HRH

 

Below is an extract from the Press Release which will accompany the Poll Results when we send them out. The 00 Poll Team has always done its utmost to ensure that - whilst Andy is thanked personally - we 'distance ourselves' for the right and proper reasons from RMweb per se as well as Warners/BRM.

 

Sadly, we have no control on what eventually appears in print or on digital media - but we try out best!

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

 

The Team comprises nine railway modellers who have developed The Wishlist Poll since 2012 and are unpaid and totally independent. Although The Poll is ‘hosted’ by RMweb, it is in no way connected with it.

Edited November 3, 2018 by BMacdermott