Why Do Many Modelling Websites Hide Shipping Charges?

[Sir TophamHatt]

I've only found this with a few websites but it's only on modelling websites.

I just don't get it.

 

Digitrains:

Says free shipping until you are ONE click away from paying through PayPal.

ONLY then is it added.

 

DCC Automation:

Again, shows free shipping until you specifically add it afterwards.

I would have thought the majority of sales through the website will be shipped, so why have a default of "pick up in store" selected?

 

I'm sure I found at least one, if not two others a few weeks back that had the same sort of thing - no word of shipping charges until the last second.

 

It's the waste-my-time sneakiness about it that I don't understand.  To what, make them look like the cheapest/best deal website?

 

All they've both done is made me waste 10 minute inputting my details/being forced to sign up with an account for nothing.  And in the case of the latter, now I have to wait for them to refund money back to PayPal to spend it on a website that is fully informing me from the outset what the costs will be.

 

Rant over

[Georgeconna]

Is it not the VAT cost you mean?, Shipping was free on your order?

[chuffinghell]

Is it not the VAT cost you mean?, Shipping was free on your order?

 

Yes the £3.33 is the VAT @20%

 

£16.67 + £3.33 VAT (20% of 16.67)

 

Are you saying they are advertising the items less the VAT and then adding it at the checkout?

Edited November 7, 2018 by chuffinghell

[Greengiant]

As far as I can see the shipping is free on your order.

£3.33 is the VAT element of the £20.00 total.

Shipping will certainly not be free for the seller so not sure what your issue is with this?

 

Martin

[Mark Saunders]

Try shopping in the USA as last time I was there I purchased some goods at the airport terminal shop and was then informed the cost was more than the labels added up to, on qustioning this it was that sales tax made it more! The assistant could not understand that in the UK the price shown includes tax and many items were tax free (zero rated in VAT terms).

 

I was left with one cent, close call!

 

Mark Saunders

[kevinlms]

Try shopping in the USA as last time I was there I purchased some goods at the airport terminal shop and was then informed the cost was more than the labels added up to, on qustioning this it was that sales tax made it more! The assistant could not understand that in the UK the price shown includes tax and many items were tax free (zero rated in VAT terms).

 

I was left with one cent, close call!

 

Mark Saunders

Yes, I believe that is standard practice in the US. Why, because different STATES have different rates of tax, so its easier for comparison purposes, to add the tax on last! Americans seem to understand their system.

 

Much different to the UK or Australia and most other countries, where the VAT or GST, is a NATIONAL tax and thus the same rate applies to everyone.

[Chris116]

When I had a car, around 20 years ago, I needed four new tyres as the ones on the car were getting near the limit and winter was approaching. I went to a local place and asked how much four tyres would cost including fitting! Got the answer, asked them to do the job and asked who I made the cheque out to for the amount they had quoted. Only to be told that the price they had quoted did not include disposal of the old tyres or balancing which it turned out would add 50% to the bill. I went elsewhere and thereafter always asked what the price was to drive the car off the premises with the new tyres fitted and balanced including VAT. Some of the tyre shops hated telling me the final answer and always wanted to play their game of quoting a cheap price which they then slowly admitted did not include a large number of extras. This bad habit seems to have moved to the internet sadly. When I was in USA I always asked how much something was to take out of the store and they normally quoted the listed price with the comment "plus sales tax at x%" to which my reply was "and how much is that in US$ and not percentage. Most stores very quickly came up with the answer very quickly and we were able to laugh at differences in language and shopping between the UK and USA.

[Zomboid]

Yes, I believe that is standard practice in the US. Why, because different STATES have different rates of tax, so its easier for comparison purposes, to add the tax on last! Americans seem to understand their system.

 

Much different to the UK or Australia and most other countries, where the VAT or GST, is a NATIONAL tax and thus the same rate applies to everyone.

They do that in Canada too. After the flight and a long transfer to Ottawa I remember having quite a debate at a coffee shop about why the price they wanted for a coffee was not the same as the price on the huge blackboard behind the till. Makes no sense to me, what I needed to know was how much I needed to hand over, and how much of that was sales tax was of no interest to me.

 

If only one thing in North America winds me up, it's that...

[30851]

Yes, I believe that is standard practice in the US. Why, because different STATES have different rates of tax, so its easier for comparison purposes, to add the tax on last! Americans seem to understand their system.

 

 

 

Actually it is much more complicated than different states. There will be differences in the tax rates at local levels as well - for example the local school district could add some extra sales tax onto your cup of coffee if you drink it in that area. So the tax rate will change every few miles. These extra taxes  get voted for on election days (it isn't just for selecting politicians)  -  the build up to days like yesterday are such 'fun' over here as folks argue their case of why they want your money. 

 

One exception about different tax rates is if you buy a car - then it doesn't matter where you buy it, you will always pay the tax rate of where you live (nope - I have no clue how that works if you live outside the US).

 

 

Rob

[chris p bacon]

I've only found this with a few websites but it's only on modelling websites.

I just don't get it.

 

Digitrains:

Digitrains.jpg

Says free shipping until you are ONE click away from paying through PayPal.

ONLY then is it added.

 

DCC Automation:

DCC Automation.jpg

Again, shows free shipping until you specifically add it afterwards.

I would have thought the majority of sales through the website will be shipped, so why have a default of "pick up in store" selected?

 

I'm sure I found at least one, if not two others a few weeks back that had the same sort of thing - no word of shipping charges until the last second.

 

It's the waste-my-time sneakiness about it that I don't understand.  To what, make them look like the cheapest/best deal website?

 

All they've both done is made me waste 10 minute inputting my details/being forced to sign up with an account for nothing.  And in the case of the latter, now I have to wait for them to refund money back to PayPal to spend it on a website that is fully informing me from the outset what the costs will be.

 

Rant over

 

 

 Before ranting about a trader that has a very good reputation (and deserved) you should look closely at what you are ranting about.

 

They have not added shipping as it clearly states it is free, what you are looking at and is clearly described is VAT (included taxes £3.33)  Some overseas purchasers do not pay the VAT so it is shown in the invoice.

As you state you are now awaiting a refund you must have actually ordered anyway and are now expecting monies to be refunded when the trader is not at fault.  If you check your Paypal invoice you will note the charge is £20.

So rather than your time being wasted you have actually wasted the time of the trader. 

[Dunsignalling]

A pal of mine buys quite a lot of stuff from the USA and found that some of the traders that offer the biggest discounts add huge (up to $50 or so) standard shipping charges.

 

The obvious motive seems to be to discourage fiddly small orders and "encourage" larger ones (which he does fall for) but might there perhaps be underlying taxation factors?

 

John

Edited November 8, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[meil]

I trust Sir TopamHatt is feeling a bit stupid this morning - what ever will Thomas and Henry say?

Edited November 8, 2018 by meil

[Nick C]

I don't think Sir Topham Hatt is being stupid at all - I've just been playing with the Digitrains website, from the OP's first post, and I must say that I can't find any mention of what the shipping costs might be (whether they be free or otherwise), without creating an account. His second screenshot does say free shipping, but I suspect from what he's said that changed during the checkout process? Do you have a screenshot showing that?

 

I'd normally expect to see a page like http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/pg/92/Postal-Charges listing the various postal charges for different weights/places/speeds etc, and for the "shopping basket" page to say something like "Shipping: TBC" or similar - They usually can't tell you exactly what it will be until you tell them where you want it sent and how quickly, but they should have a page with guideline prices.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Nick C

[Andy Hayter]

I understand the frustrations of not finding shipping costs at the very start with some traders, but be aware that shipping costs vary.  If you don't live in the UK you will be paying more for shipping (if it is charged separately) than someone in Devon.  Until you set up an account with an address, the sales system cannot say what the shipping cost is going to be.

 

There are of course other methods for shipping - flat rate, depending on location, but for those you have to search around a website prior to placing an order, so it is just as much a fag as finding the shipping cost as you get close to purchase.

 

And as already stated, VAT is another issue which can influence the actual price paid.

[Sir TophamHatt]

The issue is that shipping ISN'T free.

 

Digitrains adds a shpping charge when you're on the PayPal website and literally about to click "Pay Now".

Do it yourself, head to Digitrains and add a decoder to the basket. You'll see it's free shipping. Lovely. Choose to pay with PayPal and you'll be transferred to the PayPal website. It'll ask where you want to fund the payment from - all straight forward. It'll then ask for you to confirm the payment, which suddenly isn't the £20 it was anymore.

 

 

DCC Automation doesn't give any shipping indication until after filling in details. It's automatically selected "collect from store" so when looking at the basket at any point, it'll always say "free shipping".

 

This isn't about paying or not.

It's about hiding costs to make things appear cheaper, so it appears?

 

If I go to Amazon, for example and add some stuff to the basket, then "view basket", I can see the shipping charges right there under the Total.

I'm sure Rails of Sheffield is the same.

Hattons tells you on the product page how much postage will be, so at least there's some indication.

 

When it says "free shipping", then it's suddenly not, that's an issue.

 

 

 

As far as I can see the shipping is free on your order.

£3.33 is the VAT element of the £20.00 total.

Shipping will certainly not be free for the seller so not sure what your issue is with this?

 

Martin

Shipping wasn't free though.

The basket says it is, but it's not. Postage charges are added during the process. I question why it's being hidden when many other websites seem to have no problem adding the charge to the basket so the customer can see what the actual total is. No where does it say "total (minus shipping charges).

 

Sorry, nothing to do with the VAT.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Sir TophamHatt

[Greengiant]

The final screen shot would have helped in clarifying the situation.

Now I see what you mean, no indicating of any shipping cost, the basket even quotes ‘Grand total’. I, like you, would at the PayPal point where shipping is added probably have cancelled, unless still a comparitively good price compared with others.

 

Martin

Edited November 8, 2018 by Greengiant

[RedgateModels]

hmmmmm

 

seems like Digitrains have changed their website and p&p charges are not as visible as they used to be. In addition my account seems to have been lost as it does not recognise my email address only used at the end of September ....

[meil]

This what the law says:

 

“What the law says on Delivery Charges and Delivery Restrictions

 

You must indicate clearly no later than at the beginning of the ordering process if any delivery restrictions such as geographical restrictions apply

.

You should not offer ‘Free or Standard Delivery’ to the ‘UK’ or to ‘Mainland UK’ if you don’t offer this to every relevant postcode.

 

You must tell your customers if there are any delivery charges and what they are as soon as reasonably possible in the ordering process. You must tell them before the contract is agreed.

 

Information on delivery charges should be easy to find on your website and easy to understand.

 

If information about delivery charges is not provided, or if it’s difficult to understand, then the customer may not have to pay delivery charges.”

[Sir TophamHatt]

DCC Automation

takes until step 3 to tell you the total cost, despite saying "free" until then:
Step 1:


Step 2:


Step 3:

I appreciate it's selected pick up at store here, which is set by default.

However, I would argue that most web orders are likely to be sent by post rather than being collected.



Digitrains:

When the "Grand Total" isn't actually the grand total:


Paypal payment (although this was different to yesterday when I had to log in).
Note the sudden price rise I wasn't expecting:


... or after step 3 of the checkout process. Adding an address:


Only now, after registering, then having to re-add stuff to the cart, then signing in again, then typing in my address does it tell me the "grand total" isn't actually the grand total:




By contrast, Coastal DCC show you whats what straight away when adding something to the basket:

 

And as I say, Hattons show it on the product page.

I know it's only a few pounds but that's really not the point.
And over 15 years of buying online, I have only ever seen this with railway modelling websites.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Sir TophamHatt

[RedgateModels]

It's a hassle for me as I need to know the postage costs up front when I'm quoting a customer. I'll have a chat with Jeremy at Warley .....

[Dungrange]

This what the law says:

 

“What the law says on Delivery Charges and Delivery Restrictions

 

You must indicate clearly no later than at the beginning of the ordering process if any delivery restrictions such as geographical restrictions apply

.

You should not offer ‘Free or Standard Delivery’ to the ‘UK’ or to ‘Mainland UK’ if you don’t offer this to every relevant postcode.

 

You must tell your customers if there are any delivery charges and what they are as soon as reasonably possible in the ordering process. You must tell them before the contract is agreed.

 

Information on delivery charges should be easy to find on your website and easy to understand.

 

If information about delivery charges is not provided, or if it’s difficult to understand, then the customer may not have to pay delivery charges.”

 

In general, I expect to pay postage and packing charges unless delivery is specifically advertised on the website as being free, which they are not in this case.  However, I tend to always look for what these charges would be in advance of ordering and therefore expect to see a page like the one on the Kernow site linked to above.  If information on delivery charges is on the Digitrains website, then I couldn't find them, which means Digitrains don't meet the first statement that I have highlighted in red.  I'm fairly sure there is no information about delivery charges anywhere on the website, although I'm not sure I understand the last sentence, again highlighted in red.  How could the customer avoid paying the delivery charges if the information is not provided?  I think this would be the reason why Sir Topham Hatt would be entitled to reimbursement of either the delivery charge or the whole amount.  That is if the cost has increased from £20.00 to £22.88 without information being clearly provided that the increase is a postage charge (ie it is an option that you have to specifically select) then it doesn't meet this legal requirement.

 

I agree that the screenshots which say 'Shipping Free' is misleading and these should really say 'Shipping Not Selected'.  That would at least make it clear that a charge will be added later. 

[RedgateModels]

OK, either because I have now re-registered for their new website or someone is listening and has acted very quickly!

 

 

Still would prefer to know up front without having to add to basket, go to checkout etc

[Zomboid]

Unless you put the shipping charge on multiple times (and there will be complaints about having to pay shipping twice), it does make sense to add it at the end once the whole order is known. Five things in one box is after all not necessarily the same as five shipping charges.

 

I suspect what we're looking at here is a bit of bad design/ a mistake rather than any attempt to decieve.

[Nick C]

OK, either because I have now re-registered for their new website or someone is listening and has acted very quickly!

 

Capture.PNG

 

Still would prefer to know up front without having to add to basket, go to checkout etc

 

It still doesn't show when I try it not-logged-in.

 

As mentioned above, I'd expect to see a page with shipping charges on - even if this has, as most do, some exclusions (e.g. "International Shipping will be charged at cost")

 

As well as Kernow, Rails have one: https://railsofsheffield.com/help/shipping-costs - as do Hattons: https://www.hattons.co.uk/list/EventDetails.aspx?EventID=9

[spikey]

 ...It's the waste-my-time sneakiness about it that I don't understand.  To what, make them look like the cheapest/best deal website?

 

All they've both done is made me waste 10 minute inputting my details/being forced to sign up with an account for nothing.  And in the case of the latter, now I have to wait for them to refund money back to PayPal to spend it on a website that is fully informing me from the outset what the costs will be ...

 

Erm ... have you had a go at Messrs Digitrains about this?