Bachmann wagon box question

[spikey]

I have three different types of Bachmann wagon box - white/red striped "frame" round the window, thin red lines above and below window, and thick red line below window.

 

Roughly when did they change from one to t'other?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

And there was me thinking they all came in blue boxes.

 

'We' only see packaging when it hits retail, which could lead to a very broad range of answers. Asking Bachmann directly might be better? Possibly qualified with what type of wagon/box is of interest.

[Butler Henderson]

IIRC white/red striped "frame" round the window were the originals while the red line version occurred the arrival of the Blue Riband range. No idea as to the different thickness of red lines.

[The Johnster]

I never look at the box when I'm buying wagons; my main concern is that the production is recent enough to feature separate and not moulded handbrake levers, a minimum standard for me.  AFAIK all and any Bachmanny in retail at the moment will meet this spec, as will all and any Oxford, but I am not sure about Hornby (think everything not Railroad is probably ok, but I'd want to visually check before buying) and Dapol still knock out some Hornby Dublo/Wrenn based stock; I find their wheels a bit suspect as well.

 

Fortunately, most of my wagon needs for a 1950s BLT can be satisfied with Bachmanns, with some input in the form of XPO 7 plankers from Oxford, which have the further advantage of posable brake handles.  Hornby and Dapol minerals are on the wrong length chassis anyway.

Edited December 8, 2018 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

Not something that I would take notice of. But I know collectors do. It may be worth getting in touch with whoever runs the Collectors Club.

 

It might actually be mentioned in the Ramsay's Guides.

 

 

 

Jason

[melmerby]

but I am not sure about Hornby (think everything not Railroad is probably ok, but I'd want to visually check before buying)

Hornby are still selling wagons such as these as "Main Range" with very coarse moulding and giant tension locks:

https://www.Hornby.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/r/6/r6817-jw-gadsen-6-plank-wagon.jpg

Decoration is fine but the wagons are crude.

 

Also plenty of ex-Airfix wagons such as:

https://www.Hornby.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/r/6/r6842-new.jpg

 

Neither has NEM pockets

 

Keith

Edited December 8, 2018 by melmerby

[spikey]

And there was me thinking they all came in blue boxes.

 

They do, but the design of that blue box has changed twice over the years, giving us three different ones as per my OP. 

 

I'm not a collector, merely a chap who's thinking that if I know when the boxes changed, it should give me a clue how old any secondhand wagon might be.

Edited December 8, 2018 by spikey

[Steamport Southport]

Then I think you need this.

 

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/brm/store/books/ramsays-british-model-trains-her-9th-edition/

 

 

 

Jason

[melmerby]

They do, but the design of that blue box has changed twice over the years, giving us three different ones as per my OP. 

 

I'm not a collector, merely a chap who's thinking that if I know when the boxes changed, it should give me a clue how old any secondhand wagon might be.

If the number starrts 33- (e.g Salts, Clays & GWR Toad plus others) they are very old designs and haven't had a full upgrade since Mainline days

37- & 38- are more modern, either re-tooled early designs or new introductions.

 

keith

Edited December 8, 2018 by melmerby

[spikey]

Then I think you need this.

 

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/brm/store/books

 

 

Cheers Jason.  Never heard of it but it looks very interesting!  Is the 9th edition the current one?

Edited December 8, 2018 by spikey

[spikey]

If the number starrts 33- (e.g Salts, Clays & GWR Toad plus others) they are very old designs and haven't had a full upgrade since Mainline days

37- & 38- are more modern, either re-tooled early designs or new introductions.

 

keith

 

Cheers Keith.  So does it follow that if it doesn't start 33-, it won't have plastic wheels and /or the wide tension-locks?

[Steamport Southport]

 

Then I think you need this.

 

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/brm/store/books/

 

Then I think you need this.

 

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/brm/store/books/ramsays-british-model-trains-her-9th-edition/

 

 

 

Jason

 

Cheers Jason.  Never heard of it but it looks very interesting!  Is the 9th edition the current one?

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's the current one. Have a look around and you will probably find an earlier edition for a lot cheaper.

 

I got my copy last year when Rails were selling them off.

 

It's actually a fascinating book and has virtually everything ever made. As well as quite a few things that were planned but never made. 

 

Some libraries may even have it.

 

 

 

Jason

[spikey]

Well, that's Ramsay's guide sorted - 80p reservation fee at the library, which has the 9th edition at another branch!

 

[melmerby]

Cheers Keith.  So does it follow that if it doesn't start 33-, it won't have plastic wheels and /or the wide tension-locks?

AFAIK they didn't ever have plastic wheels* but the early Bachmann (e.g. straight from Mainline) had the split axles with the plastic muff and large screw on plastic tension locks These are exactly the same apart from the branding as the Mainline product (I have some of each)

Those are in the first design of box.

Many have been since re-issued with steel axles and newer small tension locks in the later style boxes but are still basically Mainline in origin.

From the second type of box we start the "Blue Riband" wagons, those with a 37-xxx number, with proper wheelsets from the outset. These were either re-tooled versions of ex-Mainline wagons or brand new designs.

AFAIK all 37-XXX series have NEM pockets but early on it was mounted at the wrong height and needed a cranked coupling to get the correct height required, some of these have since got a new NEM pocket at the correct height.

All current wagons, whether older ex-Mainline ones or newly tooled are now in the same third type boxes.

 

I give the information as I have found from my approx 300 PO wagons but there may be other variations.

 

*Early Bachmann coaches did have plastic wheels on steel axles

 

Cheers

 

Keith

Edited December 8, 2018 by melmerby

[spikey]

Well thank you, gentlemen.  I'm now far better informed about this than I was, and no doubt Mr Ramsay's guide will educate me further once it arrives at the library.

[No Decorum]

I never look at the box when I'm buying wagons; my main concern is that the production is recent enough to feature separate and not moulded handbrake levers, a minimum standard for me.  AFAIK all and any Bachmanny in retail at the moment will meet this spec, as will all and any Oxford, but I am not sure about Hornby (think everything not Railroad is probably ok, but I'd want to visually check before buying) and Dapol still knock out some Hornby Dublo/Wrenn based stock; I find their wheels a bit suspect as well.

 

Fortunately, most of my wagon needs for a 1950s BLT can be satisfied with Bachmanns, with some input in the form of XPO 7 plankers from Oxford, which have the further advantage of posable brake handles.  Hornby and Dapol minerals are on the wrong length chassis anyway.

 

I got a Hornby R6814 6-plank open wagon in Huntley and Palmers livery and I have the set with three more and another Peckett on order. Beautiful finish on R6814 and the underneath is very nicely done with lots of moulded detail (springs .for drawbar and buffers, for example). However, it’s an old tooling with moulded handbrake levers. I don’t think you’d notice them, though; you eye would be drawn to the coupling. 

[apollo 079]

I have three different types of Bachmann wagon box - white/red striped "frame" round the window, thin red lines above and below window, and thick red line below window.

 

Roughly when did they change from one to t'other?

Edited December 10, 2018 by apollo 079

[Butler Henderson]

And you do a double take when the date stamp is YY2512

[melmerby]

If you want to know the date when any Bachmann model's box was printed, find the flap with the catalogue code, description (and on later models barcode) on it, open the flap and turn it over. You will find stamped on there the year, month and date on which that particular box was made. It is in the format YYMMDD. This isn't necessarily the date when the model itself was made, but it's near enough. That's assuming that the model is in tis original box, of course.

 

KG

Three examples in front of me:

050421 = Blue Riband Wagon with NEMs (stepped) and metal wheels/axles

050326 = Blue Riband Wagon with NRMs (stepped) and metal wheels/axles, manufactured later than the one above.

051105 = Early wagons with big screw on tension locks and split axles (e.g as received from Mainline) this is a set of three.

Quite clearly a lot of overlap.

 

The date can be on either flap.

 

Keith

Edited December 9, 2018 by melmerby

[The Johnster]

I have eliminated plastic wheels from my stock, and have almost eliminated moulded handrails from wagons and vans.  There are 4 exceptions, Hornby 21ton minerals with double doors, and I have 'excused' these as the guard irons that prevent the doors from dropping into the chassis effectively hide the moulding, and one can 'get away' with it.  On other wagons, the moulding was much more obvious, and I have managed to replace the chassis with modern Bachmann equivalents; the old wagons and vans were a mix of Mainline, Airfix/Dapol, and Hornby.  

 

I have also eliminated 10' wheelbase 16ton or 7-plank minerals, i.e. Hornby and Dapol.  

 

I am working towards standardising couplings as NEM, but this is proving a bit harder to pull off.  Older 'large' types, riveted or screwed on, are associated with lumpy plastic mountings which have to be got rid of, a faff.  And when it comes to bogie vehicles, I'm a bit out of my depth!.  A recent purchase of a Hornby A28/30 auto trailer added a set of large moulded couplings integral with the bogies, which are identical to the antedilvian Airfix ones on another trailer.  They do not have brake blocks in line with the wheels, another standard I am trying hard to achieve.

 

The '33' vs '37/38' codes will be a useful guide for future purchases, though; I still have 6 bodies awaiting new chassis.  This is all on a fairly small BLT; just as well I don't have to deal with the problem on a big main line layout!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

If you want to know the date when any Bachmann model's box was printed, find the flap with the catalogue code, description (and on later models barcode) on it, open the flap and turn it over. You will find stamped on there the year, month and date on which that particular box was made. It is in the format YYMMDD. This isn't necessarily the date when the model itself was made, but it's near enough. That's assuming that the model is in tis original box, of course...

 

The box date stamp is not something on which complete reliance should be placed. No claims to have made a complete study, but I recall seeing some really off beam examples, particularly in the first five years of the 'Blue Riband' productions (roughly 2001 - 2005). My best was a date stamp beginning '22' - don't recall the MMDD values - and I have seen the 'YY' cited above and also an incidence of '000000'. And that's just by casual observation, not going looking for such things.

[Pteremy]

I don't know if the Ramsey's guide has an associated website, but this sort of information would be usefully collated with associated history and prototype details. Similar to the site that documents the history of the Subbuteo ranges?

[melmerby]

 

I am working towards standardising couplings as NEM, but this is proving a bit harder to pull off.  Older 'large' types, riveted or screwed on, are associated with lumpy plastic mountings which have to be got rid of, a faff.  And when it comes to bogie vehicles, I'm a bit out of my depth!.  A recent purchase of a Hornby A28/30 auto trailer added a set of large moulded couplings integral with the bogies, which are identical to the antedilvian Airfix ones on another trailer.

 

There is AFAIK little difference betwen an Airfix trailer and a Hornby one, except the Airfix originally had small plug in tension locks and Hornby use bigger ones.

 

I have fitted NEM pockets to a few bogie vehicles using the pocket in the Dapol coupling kit, it usually needs glueing into position

As I now am going Kadee I just chop everything off and use a #146 or similar. (Just done three Airfix and Hornby outside framed Siphon Gs).

 

Keith

Edited December 10, 2018 by melmerby

[Steamport Southport]

Didn't the Airfix Autotrailer originally have the Airfix couplings that wouldn't couple to anything, including other Airfix couplings?

 

http://www.airfixrailways.co.uk/CouplingsA.htm

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

There are one or two differences between the original Airfix A28/30 and the current Hornby version.  The tooling is fundamentally the same one, but the Hornby has much nicer steel turned brass buffers, and better all-metal wheels.  It is a shame that the bogies have not been upgraded, especially as there are suitable bogies in the Hornby range, but I imagine the production model for this vehicle includes the bogies.  These are, IMHO, the weakest part of the model, with their brake blocks clawing at empty air and emphasising the incorrectness of the gauge; I prefer my 00 brake blocks in line with the wheels, which to be fair to the manufacturers is by definition not where they should be because the wheels are not where they should be, but please don't take this as an invitation to open a 00/EM/Scalefour debate, we're off topic enough already!

 

The body's anomalies are well known, but I can live with them; as an all steel auto trailer of that era, it works well enough.  The Hornby finish is very good, and quantum better than Airfix's odd BR purple, which I think was supposed to be 1956 unlined maroon.  My old Airfix is now repainted in crimson, and runs as a pair with a recent Hornby in crimson/cream.  It has large couplings, not the old Airfix smaller ones.  I am considering permanently coupling these coaches together as the excessive gap between vehicles is emphasised by the bow ends and long buffer shanks, but they have to negotiate a no.4 reverse curve in the fiddle yard.