GWR Autocoach 1930 operations at provincial mainline stations

[GWR_Modeller]

Can anybody provide advice or a source of information on GWR Autocoach 1930 operations at provincial mainline stations?

 

I have read in the gwrj and some books about passenger train operations at Banbury and Oxford but they dont make much mention of auto coaches. The layout I am researching towards will have to be based on something much much smaller albeit with min four tracks and bays or loops so I can run local and branch trains into the station and have expresses connecting or passing through and also occassionaly shunt a brake onto/off the rear of a train.

 

Were auto trains common? In Harris the stock lots seem to indicate about 100 in sevice, that does not seem alot compared to other coach types.

 

How frequent would a service be? In an OPC reprint of the 1932 Gwr timetable they dont seem to be identied as such.

 

What did a 'typical' auto train look like? I know of the 48XX+autocoach combination but have also seen a pic (not sure where) of a 060PT sandwiched between four coaches presumably an auto coach either end? Was this common?

 

Were auto coaches used only for branch services or did they form local trains on the mainline as well?

 

Would a set/Loco dedicated to one branch?

 

Regards, Paul

[Joseph_Pestell]

When doing research about Haddenham, I was quite surprised to find that most of the passenger service was Autotrains.

 

Although a main line for trains going from Paddington to Birmingham and beyond, much of the timetabled service continued to follow the situation before the line was built (1910), i.e. most trains from Paddington were routed via Thame to Oxford. The smaller intermediate stations between Princes Risborough and Banbury were served by a connecting service worked by an Autotrain. The exceptions were a couple of rush hour commuter trains.

[Andy Kirkham]

Gloucester-Chalford  was an auto-train service that ran on the main line. It was the last auto-train service on the Western Region and was much photographed. Multiple-car "sandwich" auto-trains operated suburban services on the main line in the Plymouth area.

[woodenhead]

When you think of auto trains, you think one engine in steam branches and there were a lot less than them than you might think so 100 autocoaches is probably about right.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Gloucester-Chalford  was an auto-train service that ran on the main line. It was the last auto-train service on the Western Region and was much photographed. Multiple-car "sandwich" auto-trains operated suburban services on the main line in the Plymouth area.

 

Those four coach "sandwiches" in the Plymouth area are almost certainly the train in the photo the OP refers to. They were operated by a 64xx. I am not aware of it being a common practice anywhere else.

 

With regard to identifying Autotrains in the timetable, Bradshaw may be better than the GW timetable. Where not explicitly mentioned the other clue is 3rd class only which would be very rare non auto-fitted trains.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[Steamport Southport]

When you think of auto trains, you think one engine in steam branches and there were a lot less than them than you might think so 100 autocoaches is probably about right.

 

That's just the cliché pedalled by modellers of BLTs. There were very few sleepy BLTs.

 

There were over 200 auto fitted locomotives. 75 14XX, 40 64XX, 25 54XX, as well as some Metros, 517s and 45XXs.

 

Most of them were allocated to suburban areas. It's worth thinking of them as the precursor to DMUs rather than ambling up and down sleepy branchlines. They were much more likely to be allocated to Southall or Birkenhead as Ashburton.

 

It's worth looking at the allocation of them.

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/042_1400det.htm

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/060_5400det.htm

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/060_6400det.htm

 

 

Jason

[GWR_Modeller]

Dear Steamport Southport,

 

Those allocations OF auto fitted locos are a very useful insight. Returning to my question.

How were the autocoaches used in that context. There have been some discussions on this forum about train formations and I struggle to recollect any post which said anything like Brake third, compo,compo, brake third and auto trailer? In any context let alone for suburban work.

 

Was there another reason for a suburban allocation of those engines. The 6400s had small wheels like some of the prairies for better acceleration?

Didnt the control gear for auto trains require the intermediate carriages to be modifed as well as an autocoach for the driver at the other end.

 

Regards,

Paul

[The Johnster]

Another main line run was the 'Marshfield Flyer' which plied it's trade along the SWML between Cardiff and Newport.  3 trailer sandwiches were common in South Wales, but this was not until the 50s.  A very large amount of auto work was not on rural branchlines, but on 'suburban' or main line stopping trains.  Many of these small main line stations were closed in the 60s Beeching era, not all by Beeching, and, outside the London commuter area, this is a world that has largely disappeared, even the space of the old platforms is hidden by Buddlea.

 

A very long standing service in the Cardiff area was the 'St Fagan's Pullman', originally the Barry Railway's service from Pontypridd to Cardiff.  It was worked from Abercynon after the Barry's Graig station up the hill in Pontypridd was closed, and ran via Church Village, then the Barry 'main line' to St Fagan's, thence the SWML to Cardiff General and down the Riverside branch to Clarence Road in Cardiff's docklands.  It did two return trips a day, with 2 trailers, and filled in with shuttles to Penarth in between, a mileage that would have been respectable for a main line express duty.  Metros were used until 64xx became available. this being a smaller wheeled version of the 54xx specifically for South Wales' gradients.  There was a 4 trailer sandwich which ran Pontypridd-Barry as well.

 

A lot of South Wales valley work was done by auto trains, this expanding in the 50s, and hardly fits the bucolic branch image.  London, Birmingham, and Bristol area suburbans were also common. the famous 'Clifton Downs' sets being originally built for the Bristol-Severn Beach and Bristol-Portishead lines, very industrial territory.  Wrexham was also a centre of auto working in a very urban and industrial environment.

[The Johnster]

Auto trailers built as such, as opposed to conversions from railmotors, were of two types, 'suburban' and 'branch' the difference being largely the provision of van space for parcels on the 'branch' type.  They were broadly divided into to two lengths, a 70 footer and a 59 footer.  Some early types did not have any guard's or van space at all, the guard riding in the train.  The Plymouth area sets were corridor connected and the guard sold tickets on the train.  

 

The gear was a standard and could only be connected between trailers 'facing' the same way, so a 2 trailer set with the driving cabs outwards on both ends had to be hauled in the normal way; it could not be propelled.  When there was a sandwich, the cabs faced away from the loco whichever side of it they were on.  Mostly, in these cases, the intermediate trailer was a standard one with a driving cab, but some non-driving trailers converted from older compartment stock was used in the early days, including 4 and 6 wheelers.  This idea was revisited in the 50s when BR converted some Collett compartment brake 3rds to driving trailers and some matching all 3rds to run as intermediates with them.  Collett brake composites with recessed van doors (not B set ones) were similarly converted for use on the Lydney-Sharpness Severn Bridge service which featured first class accommodation, not usually provided on auto trains.  

 

The GW standard gear was fitted after grouping to some Taff Vale, Barry, and Cardiff Railway trailers, and some Rhymney all 3rds were fitted for use as intermediates but did not have driving cabs.  The Taff Vale and Cardiff Railway trailers lasted until the early 50s.

 

As well as the locos already mentioned, some 2021 panniers including double framers were auto fitted, but AFAIK none were fitted while still carrying saddle tanks.  The 4575s were not fitted until BR days.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Dear Steamport Southport,

 

Those allocations OF auto fitted locos are a very useful insight. Returning to my question.

How were the autocoaches used in that context. There have been some discussions on this forum about train formations and I struggle to recollect any post which said anything like Brake third, compo,compo, brake third and auto trailer? In any context let alone for suburban work.

 

Was there another reason for a suburban allocation of those engines. The 6400s had small wheels like some of the prairies for better acceleration?

Didnt the control gear for auto trains require the intermediate carriages to be modifed as well as an autocoach for the driver at the other end.

 

Regards,

Paul

 

It's not just a cliche or meme that the standard GW Autotrain was a single vehicle attached to a locomotive. Very much the norm.

 

But there were indeed some coaches fitted with equipment allowing them to be marshalled between the locomotive and the driving trailer. But I think that I have only ever seen photos of these with the cyclops style driving trailers converted from brake thirds.

[88D]

It's not just a cliche or meme that the standard GW Autotrain was a single vehicle attached to a locomotive. Very much the norm.

 

But there were indeed some coaches fitted with equipment allowing them to be marshalled between the locomotive and the driving trailer. But I think that I have only ever seen photos of these with the cyclops style driving trailers converted from brake thirds.

‘Clifton Down’ sets often contained an intermediate trailer, and you also got them on the Merthyr Abergavenny service with ordinary autocoaches.

[The Johnster]

The make up of 2, 3 or 4 trailer trains was not restricted to any one type within a train, as the control gear was standard; in other words a 4 trailer sandwich might consist of 4 completely different types of auto trailer.  There were other variations within diagrams as well; some were fitted with different bogies, though despite the potential for different bogies on the same vehicle with the converted steam railmotors there were none AFAIK.  Liveries were every bit as varied over the trailers' lives as any other stock, and some had the toplights plated over in later days, giving a very different appearance.  Older panelled wooden bodied trailers might in their declining years have some panels replaced by steel as well.  

 

There were many different types, and the RTR scene does not really cater to any built before the late 20s.  It's a subject worthy of a book, John Lewis' definitive 'Great Western Auto Trailers' in 2 volumes which gives chapter and verse to a pretty comprehensive degree; I'd recommend it if you want to do anything beyond the RTR A28/30 hybrid or the A38 that pervade the majority of layouts, mine included!  There are kits for the Plymouth 70 footers and the Clifton Downs, though their availability is moot.  Comet made kits for the A42/44 1950s rebuilt compartment 'cyclops' trailers, but I am very uncertain of their current status...

Edited December 11, 2018 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

Dear Steamport Southport,

 

Those allocations OF auto fitted locos are a very useful insight. Returning to my question.

How were the autocoaches used in that context. There have been some discussions on this forum about train formations and I struggle to recollect any post which said anything like Brake third, compo,compo, brake third and auto trailer? In any context let alone for suburban work.

 

Was there another reason for a suburban allocation of those engines. The 6400s had small wheels like some of the prairies for better acceleration?

Didnt the control gear for auto trains require the intermediate carriages to be modifed as well as an autocoach for the driver at the other end.

 

Regards,

Paul

 

Usually with one or two attached depending on need. They hardly ever worked with intermediate carriages as there would be no way of controlling the driving end as they were controlled by rods. Any other carriages would be added at the rear of the train as would any vans or horseboxes.

 

 

A preservation view, but two carriages were usually like this and they could control up to four trailers.

 

 

https://www.svrwiki.com/GWR_1450

 

 

Here's one at Birmingham Snow Hill to Dudley. Definitely not a sleepy branch line.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p320959101/h57C508B4#h57c508b4

 

 

 

Jason

Edited December 11, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[Andy Kirkham]

And here's one showing, quite rarely, a 14XX in what we tend to think of as typical Valleys scenery https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p320959101

 

Edit - I don't seem to able to link to an individual picture in Rail-Online. The one I meant is near Penygraig - picture 18 on the second page of 14XXs

Edited December 11, 2018 by Andy Kirkham

[The Johnster]

It's not just a cliche or meme that the standard GW Autotrain was a single vehicle attached to a locomotive. Very much the norm.

 

But there were indeed some coaches fitted with equipment allowing them to be marshalled between the locomotive and the driving trailer. But I think that I have only ever seen photos of these with the cyclops style driving trailers converted from brake thirds.

I'd have to qualify that with 'very much the norm on branch lines', but the majority of auto services were 2 vehicles or more on main line stopping or suburban work, the ratio increasing over time until replacement by dmus.  The steam railmotors were the origin of most of these services, and many of these were urban routes with halts opened to compete with the new electric tram services that appeared around the turn of the 20th century in many towns and cities.  The railmotors were victims of their own success, and were replaced, and eventually all rebuilt into, loco and trailer auto trains that could make better speed, accelerate from stops better, and handle a tail load if necessary; the use of 517s, Metros, and 2021s which were fully depreciated and capable of further work made this possible,

 

By the 1930s some of these redacted engines were getting very long in the tooth and, as the autos had built on the success of the railmotors and traffic was still getting heavier, new locos were built specifically for auto work, the 48xx and 54/64xx.  Even the 64xx were a bit out of their depth on some of the heavier South Wales and Plymouth area trains by the 50s, and some 4575 were fitted with auto gear.  

 

Internal arrangements developed into the classic 'open saloon with the door off centre' with seating bays and benches along the sides, but some of the original trailers had 'flip over' seats like tramcars accessed by end doors, one end shared with the driver.  The A38s had seating very similar to the later Swindon Cross Country dmus, in bays.  A diagram S was built with central flip over benches and sliding doors operated by the guard with a rope and pulley system for suburban work; it was rebuilt into a more normal layout with end doors to access it but retained it's distinctive windows.  Originally, only the 'branch' types were given retracting steps to serve ground level halts, but later types had this and the wide central doors as standard.

 

On the Lambourn branch, non auto fitted locos hauled auto trailers and ran around at the terminus, because of the nature of traffic on this branch, which featured frequent but irregular horse box tail traffic in amounts beyond the capacity of the auto locos available, while serving a number of unstaffed ground level halts which needed the steps and a guard to sell tickets on the train.

 

The mechanical system that the GW used for this work, with rods and levers connected by universal joints between the vehicles, restricted the number of vehicles that could be propelled to two.  With 2 70 footers, that means that front of the train might be more than 150 feet ahead of the locomotive's whistle, so a foot pedal operated bell was fixed to the cab fronts.  Auto work demanded that the fireman is left alone in charge of the loco for about half the duty, or all of it in the case of a 'sandwich',  Hence passed firemen in the top links were preferred for these duties.  Working a 4 trailer sandwich to tight timings up the 1 in 100 between Cardiff Queen Street and Heath Junction on the Bute Road-Coryton suburbans in the 50s with a 4575, when you had to look after the fire, boiler, and gear setting of the loco independently of instruction from the driver, shows why experienced and qualified men were needed!

[The Johnster]

And here's one showing, quite rarely, a 14XX in what we tend to think of as typical Valleys scenery https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p320959101

 

Edit - I don't seem to able to link to an individual picture in Rail-Online. The one I meant is near Penygraig - picture 18 on the second page of 14XXs

1421 and 1471 were long term Llantrisant allocations, used on the Penygraig and Cowbridge services with a diesel railcar as backup.  It would be hard to find two branches so different in character served by the same junction's depot anywhere!  This is the only photo I have ever seen of the Penygraig service that does not show 1471, and I have previously only seen 1421 or the railcar in Cowbridge photos, plus a 517.  Another regular loco for a duty was Abercynon's 6438 on the 'St Fagan's Pullman'.

Edited December 11, 2018 by The Johnster

[Clearwater]

If you don't know it, http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1692.htm is worth a browse. This pic is a lovely shot of a 517 and autotrailer.

 

One of a 64xx http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1762.htm

 

There are plenty of others!

 

David

[kandc_au]

FWIW, If looking for auto trailer timings , I found them listed (identified) in the WTT as opposed to just the passenger TT.

 

Khris

[chrisf]

FWIW, If looking for auto trailer timings , I found them listed (identified) in the WTT as opposed to just the passenger TT.

 

Khris

 

... and when the format of the WTTs was changed circa 1955 the WR went back to the description "Rail Motor", the last of which ran in 1935!

 

There is a fondness in preservation for running sandwich autos but they weren't as common as one might think.  Practice varied between districts and instructions were found in carriage working programmes.  Ultimately, whether a trailer was at the bunker end or chimney end depended on which way round the trailer was and which way round the loco was.

 

This is a fascinating subject and shows how what starts off as a simple question can generate a very complex set of answers.  I'll chuck in my own grenade at this point, and not just because I missed all the fun yesterday.  From 1953 to 1958 there was an auto diagram based on Barry which contrived to go round three sides of a triangle in the course of its day's work, such that it got back to Barry facing the other way from when it started.

 

Chris

[kandc_au]

Thanks Chris,

I find that stuff rather interesting. Also helps to show what most would say couldn't happen....could!
My answer was to reply to the original question. While I am trying to model 1939, I managed to find some WTT from the early 40's on Michael Clemens site where the Auto trains were actually listed as such, given he was asking for the 1930's I tried to answer with what I had found.

 

Khris

[Siberian Snooper]

The Plymouth area auto's were general operated with 1076 buffaloes until the introduction of the 64xx. Clifton Downs coach kits are available from Roxey Mouldings and the Diag R & Q trailers are from Worsley Works. The Worsley Works items are only a scratch aid, apart from sides and ends everything else has to be sourced.

[Miss Prism]

 

Autofitted Buffalo 1235 near Laira, 14 May 1925.

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Prior to DMUs there were Auto trains through Stratford-upon-Avon

[Nick Gough]

The OP might find this document from the London division local carriage working book interesting.

 

GWR London Autos & Railcars 1937-8.pdf

[GWR_Modeller]

The OP might find this document from the London division local carriage working book interesting.

 

GWR London Autos & Railcars 1937-8.pdf

Dear Nick, Thats interesting. Thanks, Paul