Great Northern/LNER grass/apple green

[railroadbill]

 

Advice needed, please!  Can't find any previous thread on this.

I understand the LNER loco green was a continuation of GN grass green, often referred to as apple green. 

The Jamieson V2 which I built in the 1970s was sprayed with Humbrol LNER green enamel from their then railway colour range. I've still got the  tin which has some  paint in it that is still liquid! Perhaps too light.

 

The rtr locos, Hornby P2,  Bachmann C2 and J72  are in slightly different shades.  I appreciate the photo was taken under artificial light, but the paint isn't identical in colour.

 

I've got a spare J72 body to go on a mainly trains chassis which I'd like to paint LNER green.

 

The question is, from currently available modelling paint (or Halfords car paints etc)  what would be nearest to grass (or apple) green?  I've read that different LNER works may have used different shades anyway, just to make things different.

I've mainly modelled BR locos  so this is my first green LNER loco for a long time.  I tried Humbrol RC408, but the paint came out darker than the lid colour.

 

 

Went to Shildon very recently and here is Green Arrow. Seems a more yellow green than the models.

[t-b-g]

A tricky subject and it has been covered in other places on RMWeb but hasn't had its own thread until now.

 

There is very little consensus amongst modellers as to which is the right colour but there is agreement that most RTR models are not too good.

 

The colour is one that is very much changed by lighting conditions, the finish (amount of gloss) and by lining.

 

When it is got just right, it is a superb livery but it is rare to see it on a model.

 

The late Malcolm Crawley, who worked on the LNER and new the colour well from the 1930s onwards and he and I spent many an exhibition or preserved railway visit talking about it, with him pointing out tye ones that looked right or wrong. The best he saw was a live steam B1 and when he made enquiries, it had been painted with genuine LNER paint.

 

Lots of people seem to agree that the shade used at Darlington was slightly different and more like the former NER green, which had a touch more blue.

 

Green Arrow was a dreadful colour last time I saw it a few years ago. It looks quite different now. It must be either tye lighting or it has been repainted. That degree of yellow is just about right.

 

The best preserved locos to look at are the N2 in GNR livery and the B12. Malcolm helped with tye colour choice on the N2 and was very happy with the way the B12 looked and tyat is good enough for me.

 

I did see one model at a show that looked just right and asked the bloke who had painted it what he had used. I was astonished when he said Precision Paints because that always looked wrong to me and to Malcolm. What he had done was to mix the paint 50/50 with gloss varnish for the sprayed top coat, over a grey primer. It lifted and transformed the paint from a dull, lifeless colour into a lovely finish.

Edited December 17, 2018 by t-b-g

[micklner]

Precision is a good match for most Hornby shades.

Railmatch is a good match for Bachmann's version which more like the Precison Darlington version.

[railroadbill]

Thanks to both for the information. I've used both railmatch and precision paints,  more recently I've managed to get some good results spraying precision with my current rather primitive airbrush. (BR loco green and LSWR carriage colours).  I haven't tried LNER green for some years, I like t-g-b's idea of mixing the paint with gloss varnish, worth a try. The loco body is now in grey primer.

 

Down to the local model shop to see what they've got,  If railmatch is closer to Bachmann colour then I guess the J72 I'm working on would match the old original J72 better.

 

As an aside, Green Arrow always looks very glossy in preservation. I sprayed my Jamieson V2 with a final coat of polyurethane gloss varnish with the Humbrol airbrush I then had,  I later read that polyurethane varnish is carcinogenic when sprayed due to the polymers in it so - I haven't sprayed it again but the surface on the loco has lasted very well for 40 years. And I'm still alive  :-)

[Steamport Southport]

Green Arrow was a dreadful colour last time I saw it a few years ago. It looks quite different now. It must be either tye lighting or it has been repainted. That degree of yellow is just about right.

 

 

 

 

Green Arrow has definitely had a repaint in recent years. At one point it was running around, looking rather good as 60800 in BR Green.

 

 

 

Jason

[t-b-g]

Green Arrow has definitely had a repaint in recent years. At one point it was running around, looking rather good as 60800 in BR Green.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Don't start me on GWR "cowpat green" again!

 

Green Arrow was, for a while recently, in a dreadful LNER green but that colour photo above does look better. It may just be the lighting conditions but my guess is that somebody at the NRM has realised how wrong it looked and done something about it.

[drmditch]

I'm pretty sure that Green Arrow has not been re-painted since it last ran in 2008.

 

Discussion on GNR/NER/LNER green colour on this and other forums can get quite intense!

 

We are lucky at Shildon to have three green locomotives at present:

251 - presumably last painted at Doncaster.

1621 - last re-painted at York carriage works in 1975

4771 - not sure, but possibly the famous restoration by Bill Hervey at Norwich.

 

Depending on the mix of artificial and natural light, and the angle of the light source it can be very difficult to distinguish between the colour of any of these.

 

I would invite you to consider:

Preparation and undercoats

Number of layers of varnish.

Preparation of top-coat colours

Stability of paint pigments.

Edited December 18, 2018 by drmditch

[drmditch]

(Sorry, working on this tablet I don't seem able to complete the above post.)

 

The 'original' (whatever that may mean) appearance of locomotives was a result of whole industries and technologies which no longer exist.

 

I claim no great expertise, and there are people on this forum and others with greater knowledge and greater ability to produce credible looking models.

Colour photographs from the 30s and 40s are dependant on film technology. Human visual memory is not easily transferrable, and in any case is selective. The NRM does have original colour samples (at least from Doncaster), but the appearance of a foot square (or so) flat surface will differ from large curved surfaces under ambient light.

 

I depend on 'LNER Locomotives in colour 1936-1948', by Ron White and Norman Johnston.

 

I do not believe that in any era all NER engines or all GNR engines would have looked the same.

Even if, under a zealous paint shop foreman, they many have been outshopped to the same standard, after some months in service and different (or indifferent) cleaning each would have been an individual.

 

Most of my locomotives are black, and I have yet to master the arts of lining and weathering green engines. The ones which I have worked on are darker than 'out of the tin' paint, because that looks better to my eyes.

 

Much to learn, and new skills to practice, but I've got a few years left yet!

Edited December 18, 2018 by drmditch

[t-b-g]

Having just looked up some photos, I found this:

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-image-lner-b12-8572-steam-train-north-norfolk-railway-poppy-line-sheringham-163487646.html

 

The colours are clearly not the same!

 

Which is right, if either of them are? Who knows.

 

All I will say is that when Malcolm was helping with the restoration of the N2, he had a sample from an unopened tin of genuine LNER paint to work from.

 

Time, chemical changes etc. may mean that is not the same as it was when it was made but it is probably as close as we will get.

 

The B12 has been repainted since Malcolm saw it. The N2 hasn't as far as I know.

Edited December 18, 2018 by t-b-g

[justin1985]

The recent Nigel Digby books on pre-grouping liveries have some very interesting accounts of HOW locos were painted (based primarily on testimony from a painter at Melton Constable on the M&GN).

 

It seems to have all been about the combination of primers and varnishes, just as much as the actual paint colours. Many of the paints of the time were at least semi translucent, giving the primer underneath a strong influence, and many coats of varnish were used on top. The two clearly combined to build up a richness and depth of colour that simply can't be matched by a single colour from the tin.

 

I was doing some research to find an appropriate blue for GER locos in 2mm scale, and reading that the "ultramarine" that was used at Stratford was translucent, over a light grey primer, suddenly made the very dark shade of blue sold by Precision as GER blue make sense. It might be a literal colour match, but the original was never an opaque dense paint like the model one. The varnish on top and grey primer below would have resulted in a much lighter, more lustrous finish. (I decided on using an airline colour from the Revell range).

 

I don't have the book to hand right now, but I remember reading about one pre group company (HBR?) whose livery was described as "invisible green". I seem to recall one of the varnish layers had Brunswick green added, resulting in a deep colour that was black under some lights, dark green under others. I believe the LNWR "blackberry black" was probably similar?

 

I think the model mentioned above which had a top coat 50/50 with varnish probably hits the nail on the head. The question is whether this approach could be used for small scale models without the number of layers required obliterating the detail?

 

I guess for the OP the more immediate need is to match to the Bachmann finish, which is a simple paint coat?

 

Justin

[t-b-g]

The recent Nigel Digby books on pre-grouping liveries have some very interesting accounts of HOW locos were painted (based primarily on testimony from a painter at Melton Constable on the M&GN).

It seems to have all been about the combination of primers and varnishes, just as much as the actual paint colours. Many of the paints of the time were at least semi translucent, giving the primer underneath a strong influence, and many coats of varnish were used on top. The two clearly combined to build up a richness and depth of colour that simply can't be matched by a single colour from the tin.

I was doing some research to find an appropriate blue for GER locos in 2mm scale, and reading that the "ultramarine" that was used at Stratford was translucent, over a light grey primer, suddenly made the very dark shade of blue sold by Precision as GER blue make sense. It might be a literal colour match, but the original was never an opaque dense paint like the model one. The varnish on top and grey primer below would have resulted in a much lighter, more lustrous finish. (I decided on using an airline colour from the Revell range).

I don't have the book to hand right now, but I remember reading about one pre group company (HBR?) whose livery was described as "invisible green". I seem to recall one of the varnish layers had Brunswick green added, resulting in a deep colour that was black under some lights, dark green under others. I believe the LNWR "blackberry black" was probably similar?

I think the model mentioned above which had a top coat 50/50 with varnish probably hits the nail on the head. The question is whether this approach could be used for small scale models without the number of layers required obliterating the detail?

I guess for the OP the more immediate need is to match to the Bachmann finish, which is a simple paint coat?

Justin

Spot on.

[Steamport Southport]

I'm pretty sure that Green Arrow has not been re-painted since it last ran in 2008.

 

Discussion on GNR/NER/LNER green colour on this and other forums can get quite intense!

 

We are lucky at Shildon to have three green locomotives at present:

251 - presumably last painted at Doncaster.

1621 - last re-painted at York carriage works in 1975

4771 - not sure, but possibly the famous restoration by Bill Hervey at Norwich.

 

Depending on the mix of artificial and natural light, and the angle of the light source it can be very difficult to distinguish between the colour of any of these.

 

I would invite you to consider:

Preparation and undercoats

Number of layers of varnish.

Preparation of top-coat colours

Stability of paint pigments.

 

I thought he meant since preservation. It was definitely a different colour when running about in the 1980s.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[railroadbill]

The recent Nigel Digby books on pre-grouping liveries have some very interesting accounts of HOW locos were painted (based primarily on testimony from a painter at Melton Constable on the M&GN).

It seems to have all been about the combination of primers and varnishes, just as much as the actual paint colours. Many of the paints of the time were at least semi translucent, giving the primer underneath a strong influence, and many coats of varnish were used on top. The two clearly combined to build up a richness and depth of colour that simply can't be matched by a single colour from the tin.

I was doing some research to find an appropriate blue for GER locos in 2mm scale, and reading that the "ultramarine" that was used at Stratford was translucent, over a light grey primer, suddenly made the very dark shade of blue sold by Precision as GER blue make sense. It might be a literal colour match, but the original was never an opaque dense paint like the model one. The varnish on top and grey primer below would have resulted in a much lighter, more lustrous finish. (I decided on using an airline colour from the Revell range).

I don't have the book to hand right now, but I remember reading about one pre group company (HBR?) whose livery was described as "invisible green". I seem to recall one of the varnish layers had Brunswick green added, resulting in a deep colour that was black under some lights, dark green under others. I believe the LNWR "blackberry black" was probably similar?

I think the model mentioned above which had a top coat 50/50 with varnish probably hits the nail on the head. The question is whether this approach could be used for small scale models without the number of layers required obliterating the detail?

I guess for the OP the more immediate need is to match to the Bachmann finish, which is a simple paint coat?

Justin

That's really what I want to do. If the new body matches the old (original) Bachmann j72 that will do the job.However since its a project that I'm trying to get as accurate as possible, the closest colour possible to the original would be best.

[railroadbill]

Green Arrow has definitely had a repaint in recent years. At one point it was running around, looking rather good as 60800 in BR Green.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

Went on a couple of rail tours behind green arrow some years ago over settle and Carlisle. Think BR green suited v2s but somehow I've expected to see it in lner green.

Edited December 18, 2018 by railroadbill

[railroadbill]

 

 

 

Now sprayed the J72 body, here it is sitting on the Mainly Trains chassis, original Bachmann J72 behind.  I used Railmatch LNER Darlington green, ref 621.  I first bought a tin of Phoenix precision paint LNER loco green, but that seemed a bit too dark (that's not to say it isn't accurate of course).   That's comparing it to my other r-t-r and kitbuilt locos.

I've used precision paint before and found it sprayed well,   but the Railmatch paint also sprayed well [that's just my experience with my rather primitive air brush!]

 

It will be interesting to see if the apparent shade of the green is altered when the black paint and lettering and lining is added.

 

Pic taken in daylight through window.

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by railroadbill