A Riddle

[Philou]

The New Year starts with a riddle – when is a 14xx not a14xx?

 

Answer: When it's a 517 – oh, and a Happy New Year and Best Wishes for 2019.

 

The reason I ask the question is that I couldn't understand why the Hatton/DJM GWR 14xx class loco was not shown with a half-cab such as this:

 

GWR 1437

 

http://www.ewyaslacy.org.uk/doc.php?d=rs_gdv_0019 (You need to scroll down the page).

 

It was only by chance that I was looking on another part of this forum that it became clear that what I wanted was not part of the 14xx/48xx/58xx family but an entirely different branch of locos from a much earlier period.

 

I have one of these:

 

GWR 2-4-0T Metro tank.

 

 

This I built over 50 years ago from a Wills' kit. It's a little worn due to a number of house moves and it's never moved under its own steam as it was never motorised. As I never completed it, I had posed myself the question as to whether I could convert it to 1437 by reversing the chassis and creating new splashers above the forward drivers.

 

The question became a little moot as in another article I saw that Metro tanks (possibly bigger ones) were used on the main line between Cardiff and Gloucester and in my mind, for the purposes of my future layout (link: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/130391-painted-myself-into-a-corner/ ), it's no major stretch of my imagination (Rule 1 if necessary) to have a Metro tank plying its trade between Gloucester and Ledbury via Newent.

 

In any case, the driver wheelbase is completely out as it's too long.

 

The questions to all of you who kit-bash and scratchbuild are: Which is the best way to get myself 1437? Do I buy a Hattons 14xx and hack or (if available) a 4mm kit and build one. I have never made ANY kit in brass and I haven't soldered whitemetal as all the ones I made 50+ years ago were stuck with contact adhesive (which has held good until now), so I have no idea if my soldering skills are any good.

 

GWR 5818

 

http://www.ewyaslacy.org.uk/Golden-Valley/Digital-Archive-Photographs-of-the-Golden-Valley-Railway-Pontrilas-after-the-Second-World-War-Part-3-of-3-/1946-1967/rs_gdv_0021 (You need to scroll down the page).

 

Again, in my ignorance, I didn't know until quite recently that the 48xx series outlived the 58xx locos, due to the latter ones having no auto-coach equipment. At least this one survived until the early 1950s.

 

Regarding 5818 I wondered whether I should have got (too late now, I suspect) a Hattons/DJM and hoped to get 'a good'un'. Or get one and go Captain Kernow's route (and others), and replace the chassis and motor.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I also want one of these, GWR 1385. http://www.ewyaslacy.org.uk/doc.php?d=rs_gdv_0019 5  (Again, scroll down).

 

This one I did think could be created using the Electrotren 0-6-0ST pseudo ex-TVR loco as a donor chassis and then hacking the body and various Airfix 0-4-0ST body parts with some scratch build, I could probably tackle that (in plastic).

 

There is also 'Hilda', GWR 359 0-6-0ST (with bell!) that worked the Golden Valley line from Pontrilas during the construction of the munitions depôt at Elm Bridge in the early 40s . This needs an 0-6-0 chassis. I haven't found as yet any dimensions regarding the wheelbase to decide on what could become a suitable donor. Whether there is information elsewhere regarding Hudswell Clarke locos, I don't as yet know.

 

Intriguingly, there was also a USTC 2-8-2 loco that went to the munitions dump but I have no info on that other than the photo that is within the third link above – I think I have enough to be going on with at the moment without contemplating an 'intruder'.

 

Plastic kits and RTR.

 

In addition, I have received at Christmas, half a dozen Parkside kits. I have in years gone by constructed many, many Airfix kits (aircraft and railway). At face value, there seems to be no major differences in their approach in construction. Am I correct, or are there pitfalls?

 

I note also, on other threads, especially Wright Writes, that wagons (seemingly much unloved and only given a cursory look, usually) do need attention to detail to make them more realistic. I see mention of 'fitted' and 'non-fitted' and therefore the need of continuous braking equipment (eg vacuum cylinder underneath and pipework at each end – oh and rodding through the 'V' hangers).

 

Question arises: How will I know what is wanted (or missing) from my kits? What do I do to all my other built Airfix kits (70-odd mostly built 50 years ago) and all my RTR wagons pre- and post- modern (approx 150 bought post-2014) to improve them? I have absolutely no literature to which I can refer and rely mostly on the t'interwebs for information.

 

Am I a lost cause?

 

Help!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

PS: If these topics have been done before, can someone point me in the right direction?

[Steamport Southport]

The best way to get a GWR 517 0-4-2T would be the newish South Eastern Finecast kit.

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117704-south-eastern-finecast-gwr-517-0-4-2t/page-2

 

I can't think of a model of 1385. The closest I can think of is an etched brass kit of 1331 (also a Fox Walker). Unfortunately I think you are getting into scratchbuilding territory there.

 

http://cspmodels.com/abante/index.php?rt=product/product&manufacturer_id=21&product_id=130

 

 

Regarding the wagons. I reckon if you just follow the instructions you will be fine. Parkside kits really are a pleasure to build. Everything is in the packet, but if you want to enhance them you can by using parts from some of the small suppliers such as Wizard Models and Lanarkshire Models. I find that wire is better than bits of plastic rod for example.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/

 

http://www.lanarkshiremodels.com/

 

 

 

Jason

[Philou]

Thanks for the heads up, Jason, much appreciated.

 

I'm happy to have a bash, and a bit of scratchbuild too if needs be. Insofar as the wagons are concerned, I did see elsewhere that fine brass rod is much used - especially for brake rodding. I'll look at the small suppliers as you suggest as there are probably things like clasp brakes and the like - and I need some spare buffers as I noticed over the years some of my Airfix minerals have lost a couple.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Corbs]

Hi Philip, I do not think the Hattons 14xx would be right for you. The chassis is a very bad design and is not like most RTR locos, the mechanisms can be very dodgy and they are hard to take apart. For a bit of bashing you could consider the old Hornby model?

[Philou]

Hello Corbs,

 

I had a look at your thread - much impressed by your work. If I can achieve anything approaching what you do, I'll be well pleased.

 

What I do have - and I forgot to mention earlier - are two Airfix 14xxs bought when they first came out and have never been run. I assume they have 'pizza-cutter' wheels, but could be re-wheeled. Any good as a base maybe?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Corbs]

Thank you!

I think the Hornby/Airfix one would be easier to work with although I can’t vouch for the running qualities. The DJM one has a lot of problems with jerky running due to the geared chassis.

I imagine that the ultimate solution would be to build an etched brass chassis kit but such things are beyond my skill set!

Captain Kernow on this forum has been replacing the DJM chassis with such a kit, it is in the ‘blogs’ section.

[Philou]

Yeah, I saw the blow by blow saga of Captain Kernow and the chassis. As some said it may have been simpler to build a kit than do the bash. My problem is that I have never done any brasswork at all and it would be a pity to start a kit and then give up. Plastic for me is less of an issue. But thanks for your thoughts and advice.

 

As an aside, why long gear trains? I thought that went out with the Trix E3000 and Class 52 'Western'? When I did my whitemetal kits, it was all Romford/Jackson 40:1/60:1 brass worm and gear wheel. Quite simple really and easy to set up. Plus ça change - eh?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Harlequin]

Interesting little snippet: Brothers Joseph and George Armstrong both designed locos for the GWR:

 

Joseph designed the 2-4-0 Metro tanks.

George designed the 0-4-2 517 class, which were the ancestors of the 48/58/14xx class.

 

If you get a Hattons/DJM 48/58/14xx you are definitely taking a risk (and not suitable for modding as stated above) but for, the record, I've got two good ones without any need for returns. They are beautiful. Some tweaks to the decoder settings may be needed to handle to coreless motor. Too early to say how reliable they will be in the long run.

 

I wonder if 3D printing would offer a way to get a Metro, 517 or 1385 body? You'd still need a donor chassis, of course...

Edited January 4, 2019 by Harlequin

[Philou]

@Harlequin,

 

Thanks for the additional snippet. I did see on another thread (I forget where just at the moment), that someone had overlain the working drawings of a 517 and a 14xx. If I recall, the 517 is about 95% smaller all round but the wheelbase (drivers and trailing axle) is the same, which is why the idea of using a Hattons' one seemed the way forward - especially as there ARE some good'uns around. I do sympathise with those of whom have got a duff one - and I think that Cap'n Kernow's endeavours are probably waaaaaay out of my comfort zone!

 

I'm going to have to do some hacking anyway as 1437 is a half-cab - I'll look in my secret squirrel box and fish out the Airfix ones and weigh up the possibilities. I mean the boxes are still marked at £9.50 - so it's not as if they cost a lot, is it ?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

As an add-on, one of the lads at the club has a 3D printer - quite adept at it too. He's been doing n gauge loco bodies for his layout - hmmm, I wonder ................ scan a 14xx body, reduce by the appropriate amount, hack as necessary and Robert is your mother's brother. The possibilities suddenly become endless.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

Hmmm ...... just noticed I need another Class 517, No1428 (with closed cab), that ran along the Newent branch. I hadn't looked much at this branch as it appeared to be Panniers, Prairies and the railcar, No22. I'm going to have a closer look at my two branch lines, aren't I   ?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Edit: Having had a peruse elsewhere, I see Brassey is working on some Class 517 locos ........

Edited January 4, 2019 by Philou

[timbowilts]

I wonder if 3D printing would offer a way to get a Metro, 517 or 1385 body? You'd still need a donor chassis, of course...

You can already get a 3D printed 4mm 517 body from Shapeways, it is available in various guises

TimT

[Philou]

@Timbowilts,

 

Thanks for the heads up. I've had look and there are two possibles. I shall do some more research regarding boiler height and smokebox length especially for No1437.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[lofty1966]

You can already get a 3D printed 4mm 517 body from Shapeways, it is available in various guises

TimT

Body scales out at about 4mm too long.

Same as the Dean Sidings resin kit designed to sit on the later Dapol/Hornby chassis

Edited January 5, 2019 by lofty1966

[Brassey]

Hmmm ...... just noticed I need another Class 517, No1428 (with closed cab), that ran along the Newent branch. I hadn't looked much at this branch as it appeared to be Panniers, Prairies and the railcar, No22. I'm going to have a closer look at my two branch lines, aren't I   ?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Edit: Having had a peruse elsewhere, I see Brassey is working on some Class 517 locos ........

 

I have 3 x 517 kits:  

 

The first finished is an M&L/Mallard hybrid.  Short wheelbase, inside rear axle boxes, open cab.  Required some adjustment and scratch built parts.

 

The second (almost finished) is based around the Mallard kit with a High Level 14xx chassis suitably shortened.  Closed cab, long wheelbase, outside axle boxes.  I can highly recommend the High Level chassis.  Ditto tweaking above

 

The third is a Malcolm Mitchell kit bought from David Geen before he retired.  Will also be closed cab.

 

In my kit mountain is also a Rod Neep 2-4-0 Metro etch and chassis described as a scratchbuilders aid.  I also have a Wills Metro which will donate the castings

 

All of these ran between Ludlow and Hereford pre WW1 on local passenger trains.

 

Progress on all the above is stalled whilst I am currently working on a Comet sprung chassis with inside valve gear for a Dean Goods (and ballasting track!)

[Philou]

@lofty1966

 

Yes, I noticed that. Shapeways do say 4mm longer to fit over the existing chassis. If you look at the silhouettes of the 517 and 14xx overlain (and it depends which of the 517 you look at and YMMV), it's about 1mm at the front and 3mm at the back end that needs to be foreshortened PLUS the boiler needs lowering by about 2mm. IMHO, the bodies on offer by Shapeways are not quite what I want as the chimney is also looks too short (I suspect it's because the boiler has not been lowered).

 

I shall investigate the two Airfix 14xxs that I have and use them as donor chassis, modify the one body to make 1428 (which is a closed cab - possibly a later rebuild) and use the other body as a base to make 1437 which is an open cab with outside trailing wheel axle boxes. The chassis block will need some removal to take the shorter body but I shan't need to touch the wheelbase (says he). Insofar as 1428 is concerned, I have to find a side-on shot to see whether the rear trailing wheels are internal or external bearings.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

@Brassey,

 

Thanks for the information regarding your kitbash. I think it was on your thread that I saw you were doing 1482 and I thought 'good-oh, something I can crib' but no mine is 1428 which is a different build.

 

Did you find the kits difficult as I have never done any brasswork (yet)?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Brassey]

1428 was changed to a long wheelbase in March 1899 so is likely to have had outside bearings from that date.  It never received a belpaire firebox.  Built with an R3r it received a R4s (roundtop) also in March 1899 and was withdrawn in October 1932. 

 

Source: RCTS

[Brassey]

@Brassey,

 

Thanks for the information regarding your kitbash. I think it was on your thread that I saw you were doing 1482 and I thought 'good-oh, something I can crib' but no mine is 1428 which is a different build.

 

Did you find the kits difficult as I have never done any brasswork (yet)?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Like many I started with white metal kits many moons ago.  Then, if you wanted a Dean Goods for example, that was the only way to go.

 

Etched brass is a natural progression as is scratch building certain parts if you want something different to what's in the kit.  For example the Mallard 517 kit is only good for a later version; you have to be prepared to amend the footplate for the earlier narrower types and scratch build a new bunker.

 

As Jazz says in his signature: you learn by doing.  The only way to find out is to try.  Soldering improves greatly with practice.  Nowadays I have a lot of problems with glue!

[Philou]

@Brassey,

 

Thanks for the information regarding 1428 - 1899 onwards will do me!

 

Thanks for the encouragement regarding brass-build - the hardest part of any journey (especially into the unknown) is the first step.

 

I'll order a kit (need to look at what's available), all the bits and then get on with it!

 

However, regarding the withdrawal date of 1932, I think that may be a little premature as it's been photographed in all it's glory at Newent station, sporting a very clean BR smokebox number (unless the number was recycled).

 

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/check-out-incredible-pictures-gloucestershires-618512 . (You'll need to scroll down to the sixth, and last, photo).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Brassey]

@Brassey,

 

Thanks for the information regarding 1428 - 1899 onwards will do me!

 

Thanks for the encouragement regarding brass-build - the hardest part of any journey (especially into the unknown) is the first step.

 

I'll order a kit (need to look at what's available), all the bits and then get on with it!

 

However, regarding the withdrawal date of 1932, I think that may be a little premature as it's been photographed in all it's glory at Newent station, sporting a very clean BR smokebox number (unless the number was recycled).

 

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/check-out-incredible-pictures-gloucestershires-618512 . (You'll need to scroll down to the sixth, and last, photo).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

That 1428 = 48xx Series. Built 11/1933 renumbered from 4828 to 1428 11/1946.  Withdrawn 6/1959.  The 48xx series were built to replace the 517 class which by 1932 were being scrapped.

 

Glad to see you biting the bullett on a brass kit.  However, I would not suggest starting with a Malcolm Mitchell 517 kit as that would prove quite a challenge due to the amount of fine detail.  

[Philou]

@Brassey

 

If No1428 is then a 'real' 14xx (ex-48xx) then it does seem to make the job a little simpler in creating a loco for the Newent branch .

 

I'll keep in mind what you say regarding the MM kit. I think I saw a finished 517 from his stable - it did look good. Without asking you for details - what are the pitfalls? For example: Does the boiler come pre-shaped? If not, how do you roll it?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Edited to make post more sensible

Edited January 7, 2019 by Philou

[Brassey]

@Brassey

 

I'll keep in mind what you say regarding the MM kit. I think I saw a finished 517 from his stable - it did look good. Without asking you for details - what are the pitfalls? For example: Does the boiler come pre-shaped? If not, how do you roll it?

 

 

 

No the boiler does not come pre-formed in MM or Martin Finney kits.  I have GW Models rolling bars for such jobs. See Malcolm's own demo in this video:

 

 

The pitfalls I guess are recognising all the components for example, these are the set of etches for a MF Dean Goods.  There are 2 different footplates, 4 different cab sides etc.  The boiler is top left and comes with round top firebox attached which you have to remove for the belpaire version.

 

http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gwr_2301_etches.htm

 

These are as good as it gets for kits but it may be easier to start with something simpler such as a London Road Models kit which has a pre-rolled or resin boiler.  There won't be nearly as many parts.

[Philou]

Oh............! I'll follow your advice and start with something easier - walk before running and all that - I'll see how I get on with soldering.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Edited to say that Mr Mitchell seems to be a GWR man. Makes it look sooooo easy too!

Edited January 7, 2019 by Philou