2P 4-4-0 Livery in BR era

[Bulliedman]

I'm just about to finish off a 2P 4-4-0 in N gauge, however when I look at photos both in books and on the net it appears that the livery on some would appear to be unlined black and others are in lined black. The pictures attached would tend to support the idea that some at least were unlined.   I always assumed they were all in mixed traffic lined black can anyone confirm if all were lined or is it a case of their filthy unkempt state hides the lining on some?

[TheSignalEngineer]

There were definitely some in unlined black towards the end. IIRC 40646 was like that with late crest when it finished at Bescot.

[Blandford1969]

I'm a bit confused by the question, however we can say the following from photos which are clear

 

1949 40564 lined BR British Railways on tender (and 1950)

 

1950 40601 lined BR - British Railways on tender (still has British Railways on tender in 53)

ditto 40634 - lined BR early crest 

ditto 509 still in LMS livery - cannot see if any lining

ditto 40698 - unlined LMS livery (BR smokebox numberplate)

ditto 40568 (LMS smokebox number plate) , 40696 and 40698 all in LMS livery (cannot see lining or smokeboxes)

Ditto 40505 lined BR early crest

 

1951 40563 - lined BR - British Railways on tender (same in 52/ 53)

ditto 40568 lined BR early BR crest

ditto 40697 (BR smokebox numberplate) LMS livery too dirty to see any lining 

ditto 40505 lined BR - British Railways on tender

ditto 40509 lined BR - early crest on tender

 

1953 40601 - lined - Still British Railways on tender

ditto 40700 unlined BR early crest

ditto 40697 unlined BR early crest

ditto 40527 unlined BR early crest

ditto 40505 unlined British Railways on tender

ditto 40569 BR Lined early crest

40698 BR unlined early crest

 

1954 40563 lined BR - British Railways on tender

40698 unlined early crest

40601  unlined early crest

40509 lined BR early crest

 

1955 40564 appears from the cab to be unlined early crest

1955 40696 and 40563 - looks to be unlined BR early crest

1956 40634 unlined BR (nice clean views in Ivo's book)

 

1956 40700 unlined BR early crest and 1958

 

1958 40698 unlined BR early crest

40568 appears unlined early crest

 

1960 40700 late crest - unlined

ditto 40569 unlined early crest

 

1961 40609 unlined early crest

 

All are taken from either Ivo's or Derek Cross's books. I can't get to my negatives and slides as my 5 year old is blocking the way.

 

Hope that helps. 

[phil_sutters]

These all look unlined under the grime!

[Steamport Southport]

I've a feeling it was a case that they should have all been lined but the works didn't always bother. Possibly Derby Works didn't want to paint them in LNWR livery.

 

Looking at photographs over the years it seems that those in Scotland had a higher chance of being lined and often embellished.

 

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/363424/

 

Photo from Wiki Commons.

 

 

Jason

[johnofwessex]

In the picture of 40569, is the train only the first two coaches with some more a short distance away?  I cant quite make it out

[phil_sutters]

50 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

In the picture of 40569, is the train only the first two coaches with some more a short distance away?  I cant quite make it out

I can only see what you can, but it does look as though that is the case. The further set of coaches seems to have a tail lamp on it. Local trains on the S&D whether on the Bath to Templecombe line or the Somerset Central were often two or three coaches, with whatever motive power was available.

[johnofwessex]

Thank you

[Bulliedman]

All

 

Many thanks for all of your input, I think that unlined black it will be then, as long as I choose the correct loco, the majority appear to be unlined pre 1957 so I'll go on that.