LMS CCT Van

[Simon60]

In 2013 and 2014 Hornby produced 

R6640/A

LMS 4 Wheel CCT Van ‘37012’

The era is recorded as 1980s.

Is that correct or should it be era 3?

Cannot find this model’s details listed in Essery, though I could have missed it.

Is this actually a model of an LMS vehicle?

Thanks in anticipation 

 

[Flood]

Motor Car Van D2026. P88 of LMS Standard Coaching Stock Vol. 1.

 

Qty 150 built 1938 Metro-Cammell Nos. 37000 - 37149

Qty 30 built 1951/2 Earlestown Nos. 37298 - 37327

Qty 35 built 1956/7 Swindon Nos. 37200 - 37234

Qty 10 built 1956 Swindon Nos. 37235 - 37244

 

Final examples withdrawn May 1978 but the LMS liveried one should be Era 3 as you state.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Flood

[Steamport Southport]

LMS and era 3. The livery is from about 1935 onwards.

 

Are you looking in the wagon books?  It's in the carriage books as it's classed as Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock (NPCCS)

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/60266/Hornby_R6640A_LMS_4_Wheel_CCT_Van_New_tooling_for_2013/StockDetail.aspx

 

For some reason Hornby and model shops such as Hatton's usually put them in with the wagons.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited April 3, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[The Johnster]

Probably because they are XP branded and hence capable of running in freight trains.   Some NPCCS is numbered in the coaching stock lists (BG, GUV) and does not require XP branding. 

[Steamport Southport]

They were passenger stock though. The survivors even carried BR Blue.

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsparcels/e134e8fb6

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

Hatton's list milk tanks in the wagon section too, and they were classified as NPCCS for operational purposes.

 

The LMS CCT has a timber body so, for Hatton's (and lots of their customers) it looks like a wagon, so it's a wagon.

 

Not the only oddity on their website, e.g. to find spare Bachmann bogies, you have to look up "wheelsets".

 

John

 

 

[Simon60]

Thank you all

yes, mistake on my part - looking in wagon volumes 

 

[Wickham Green]

5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

The LMS CCT has a timber body so, for Hatton's (and lots of their customers) it looks like a wagon, so it's a wagon.

 

 

.......... but the - not totally dissimilar - Southern PMV is in Hattons 'Coaches' section while the BR horsebox ( with carriage-style body ) is in with the wagons ........... hmmmmm

[jwealleans]

It’s a grey area.  Parkside’s instructions for the D2026 used to suggest maroon with carriage lettering (as advised by Bob Essery) but then (again based on a later Essery publication) went to bauxite with freight lettering.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green said:

.......... but the - not totally dissimilar - Southern PMV is in Hattons 'Coaches' section while the BR horsebox ( with carriage-style body ) is in with the wagons ........... hmmmmm

So, is it perhaps determined by the descriptions given to Hatton's by Hornby and Bachmann?

 

John

[The Johnster]

NPCCS sort of blurs the boundary between passenger and freight stock and different railways treated them in different ways.  The Southern's 4 wheel PMV, CCT, and BY vans did not carry XP branding in Southern livery, but were so branded by BR.  It's one of those situation where the rule is A until it becomes B...  This is of course part of the fascination of NPCCS in the first place.  It doesn't matter much to me which shop classifies them as which category, as I'm reasonably familiar with their use and operation on the real railway, but might misguide some people.

 

Typing the word 'category' reminds of a friend's little girl some years ago (she's a teenager now!).  Cute as buttons and about 3 years old, and I asked her what was going to happen to the family cat when they went on holiday, already having been tasked with looking in and feeding it daily.  She considered this for a few seconds, then her face lit up and she came out with 'I expect it will go into a category', the sort of logic that is beyond argument and an utter joy!!!

[Wickham Green]

52 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

......  The Southern's 4 wheel PMV, CCT, and BY vans did not carry XP branding in Southern livery, ..............

............ except post war ( ? ) when many did receive this. ( Not sure about exact timing - but certainly before 1948.)

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

............ except post war ( ? ) when many did receive this. ( Not sure about exact timing - but certainly before 1948.)

Just had a look at Gould's work on SR Passenger -Rated stock:. Page 68 has a 1938 works view of 1737 with a prominent 'XP'; yet another view, taken a year earlier of a Van B, had no such lettering.

[The Johnster]

My Hornby malachite green liveried PMV, which I assume is correct, is not branded XP.  Malachite was introduced by Bulleid, who joined the Southern in 1937, so the livery cannot pre-date that year, but does not mean that XP branding was not introduced between then and nationalisation.  Wartime would presumably have meant that the vans were used on off-Southern traffic more frequently (of course, as everyone knows, they'd permeated the entire BR network by about 3 minutes past midnight on 1st January 1948!), which may have had a bearing on this.

 

The Southern, with a tradition of ferry mails and parcels traffic and the fast West Country freights, was probably where the blurring of a distinction between freight and NPCC stock was most pronounced.  Trains of PMVs, what I think of as parcels traffic, ran with Queen Mary bogie freight brake vans, as did the Southern's milk trains, and what I would think of as fast freight ran with BY vans.  An XP branding is not in itself a reliable indicator; all it means is that a vehicle is permitted to run in the formation of a train with passenger rated stock.  It has automatic brakes, screw couplings, and hydraulic buffers, but may well be a general merchandise goods vehicle.

[Wickham Green]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

My Hornby malachite green liveried PMV, which I assume is correct, is not branded XP.  Malachite was introduced by Bulleid, who joined the Southern in 1937, so the livery cannot pre-date that year, but does not mean that XP branding was not introduced between then and nationalisation.  Wartime would presumably have meant that the vans were used on off-Southern traffic more frequently (of course, as everyone knows, they'd permeated the entire BR network by about 3 minutes past midnight on 1st January 1948!), which may have had a bearing on this.

 

The Southern, with a tradition of ferry mails and parcels traffic and the fast West Country freights, was probably where the blurring of a distinction between freight and NPCC stock was most pronounced.  Trains of PMVs, what I think of as parcels traffic, ran with Queen Mary bogie freight brake vans, as did the Southern's milk trains, and what I would think of as fast freight ran with BY vans.  An XP branding is not in itself a reliable indicator; all it means is that a vehicle is permitted to run in the formation of a train with passenger rated stock.  It has automatic brakes, screw couplings, and hydraulic buffers, but may well be a general merchandise goods vehicle.

Having dug out my copy of Gould last night I concur with Fat Controller about the probable 1938 date of XP introduction on the Southern ........ but I haven't checked whether that's any different to the other Companies. While malachite green appeared just after Mr.B, I'd hesitate to say he 'introduced' the colour even if his signature - as CME - was on the bit of paper that authorised the Works to carry out the wishes of the Board ........ and whether any spectacle cord was involved is a totally different question.

Hydraulic buffers may have been a prerequisite of XP rating late in the day but all the vehicles mentioned so far in this thread started life and - as far as I know all went for scrap - with spring buffers. ( Minimum 10' wheelbase was another requirement.)

 

( I know this is meant to be a Hornby thread but are you sure you have a PMV from that stable ? ( and I'm not sure the other lot have done one in malachite ) ..... the old CorrPMV would be a very unreliable reference source ! )

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Wickham Green
Additions

[The Johnster]

Thank you, Wickham; I now know more than I did before I read your post and my day is thus not wasted...

 

My PMV is of course Bachmann, senior moment again.  I actually have 2 of them, this and one in BR crimson, plus a BY and B in BR crimson and BR malachite respectively, which do come from Hornby!  This is overkill for a 1950s South Wales BLT, but I like vans with the 'Ashford' roof profile and wooden bodies, as they have a lot of character, and the period is specifically chosen for maximum livery variation (1948-58).  I also have 4 different liveried ventilated general goods 'Ashford' vans