Coal for Heritage Railways

[009 micro modeller]

21 hours ago, Zomboid said:

"Authenticity" isn't really the point. The fact is that it's 2019, and heritage railways exist in this era. If coal becomes unavailable/ unaffordable because it's not being used for much else, then they'll have to adapt. I'm more into diesels, but I'd sooner see oil fired steam than no steam, which may be the reality that we're going to face in the medium term.

 

No matter what publicity might say, they are essentially railway Disneylands. The NRM has a heritage/ conservation remit, the rest are tourist attractions which have to survive however they can.

 

What about wood/biomass fuelled steam locos? I think one of the locos on the South Tynedale Railway is having this done as an environmental initiative.

[ejstubbs]

On 04/06/2019 at 19:05, doilum said:

The coal was part of the wage. A ton / month if I recall correctly. By the 80s the clean air act had finally reached even places like Castleford and the coal allowance was given a nominal value which could be used to buy smokeless fuel or anthracite. I believe it could also be used to pay for gas. Being cash it was now taxed as income. As the pits closed the source of "real coal" disappeared and with it the thick smoke that often hung over our towns. 

 

My Dad worked for the NCB (in a management/engineering role, not underground except for occasional site visits) for twenty-odd years, retiring in the early 1980s.  He was still receiving his concessionary coal allowance when he passed away two years ago.  I know this because we had to write to whoever it is who administers the scheme these days to tell them to stop paying it!

[doilum]

I am sure that I read recently of an advanced planning application for a brand new deep coal mine in Cumbria. The aim was to secure a source of coking coal for the steel industry.

[Fat Controller]

59 minutes ago, doilum said:

I am sure that I read recently of an advanced planning application for a brand new deep coal mine in Cumbria. The aim was to secure a source of coking coal for the steel industry.

Correct.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/19/deep-coal-mine-gets-go-ahead-in-cumbria-despite-protests

[Mark Saunders]

West Cumbria Mining due to start production in about two years mainly Coking Coal but there apparently is some Steam Coal also!

 

There is the company website. Looks like six trains a day mainly to Redcar for export.

 

Mark Saunders 

[Reorte]

5 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

West Cumbria Mining due to start production in about two years mainly Coking Coal but there apparently is some Steam Coal also!

 

There is the company website. Looks like six trains a day mainly to Redcar for export.

I assume the route would be Carlisle - Newcastle - Redcar? Which in turn would give the coastal line to Newcastle line link in Carlisle some use - AFAIK it sees very little at present.

[009 micro modeller]

6 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

West Cumbria Mining due to start production in about two years mainly Coking Coal but there apparently is some Steam Coal also!

 

There is the company website. Looks like six trains a day mainly to Redcar for export.

 

Mark Saunders 

 

Presumably not all is being exported though, if the point is to reduce the UK’s dependence on imported coal.

[faulcon1]

In time alternatives may have to be found for coal fired locos. Coal is rapidly becoming a dirty word world wide. Most mines here in "Straya" don't want to extract coal and leave it in big lumps to be burnt in loco fireboxes. They want to crush it down to granules usually for power station use or export. Then there is the disposal of the ash from the ash pan and cinders from the smoke box. Some locos have self cleaning smoke boxes but not all. At the present time diesel is widely available in "Straya" and cheap too. My work vehicle is a diesel and diesel at the pump is $1.50c or around 70p a litre. "Straya" is a hot and dry country and there's only a narrow window to operate steam in the winter months although often our winter temperatures are English summertime temperatures. With diesel for fuel there's no need to modify the production process. There's also no waste to pay to get rid of. The only downside is that the smell of coal burning is gone. But diesel fired steam locos could run all year round as there's no flying cinders which in a tinder dry country such as mine tips the balance in favour of diesel. That article I posted shows the burner set up and it's a world away from the old oil burning steam locos we used to have in the 1950's. I say oil but it was closer to crud. The locos should have been called "crud burners" for the "oil" they got was just crud. The oil tank in the tender required a heater to heat the crud just so it would flow to the atomiser. That's not necessary with diesel. Locos in NSW like the Garratt 6029 are expensive to run. One run costs in coal alone $10,000 and as the loco wasn't built for economy it devours coal like sailor in a pub after a long voyage and it doesn't work anywhere near as hard as it used to in it's mainline service days.  

[Reorte]

What likelihood one or two small pits hanging on for domestic and preserved railway (and other similar uses) supply? It'll upset the greenies but all adds up to sweet FA, the question being about the commercial viability instead.

[melmerby]

There was an item on BBC West Midlands recently about the phasing out of coal and it mentions that it does not just affect trains

There are ships, lorries, traction engines, mill engines, mine engines, pumping engines etc. which are all heritage steam powered devices that will need coal.

Coal will not be banned for heritage use but obtaining supplies might be a problem.

Alternative fuel sources were mentioned but they are all currently much more expensive than coal.

There was talk about maybe making a consortium to buy in bulk as the total was IIRC about 10,000t. This might make it viable.

[Reorte]

That's why if I was wondering whether it would be viable to have one or two small pits remaining to supply those. How much still comes out of the Forest of Dean (or is it such small scale that it couldn't even supply that much?)

[melmerby]

On 14/07/2019 at 18:57, Right Away said:

"Heritage" should mean heritage and all that goes with it. Many would be alarmed at the prospect of preserved steam locomotives or any other prime mover for that matter if it failed to represent authentically the condition in which it was operated back in the day.

 

Even though they transport 10s of thousands of tons of coal everyday on their network, Union Pacific have converted Big Boy 4014 to burn oil.

I can't see many complaining about that.

[Reorte]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Even though they transport 10s of thousands of tons of coal everyday on their network, Union Pacific have converted Big Boy 4014 to burn oil.

I can't see many complaining about that.

Different attitudes to it in the USA I suppose. I'd prefer oil fired steam to no steam but I'd still regard it as a pretty depressing day when that happened, another little detail adding up to a world I'm getting ever less joy living in.

[Zomboid]

I imagine UP doesn't haul a lot of coal suitable for burning in 4014. Though no doubt it would have had a mechanical stoker, which might want something different to what we put into a kettle by hand.

 

In fact, how insane would the modifications be to enable a loco to burn power station grade coal? Would it just be easier to do oil?

 

Personally I've no issue with oil fired steam. It makes more sense than coal in some ways, such as not needing separate fuel for steam and diesel or having to deal with the ash. Coal smells nicer when it's burning, but if it's not economically viable then it's a case of adapt or die.

[Nick C]

I can't see the point in converting steam locos to Diesel firing instead of coal - given that Diesel is even more vilified, I suspect that easy availability of that will end within the next 20-30 years, as IC road vehicles go - possibly even before easily available coal does...

 

The pessimist in me thinks that operational steam doesn't have a huge amount of time left, so we need to enjoy it while we can...

[melmerby]

How about hydrogen power?

The waste product of combustion of which is steam.

Trouble is the smoke box would need to be renamed the steambox!

Edited August 6, 2019 by melmerby

[Dava]

Very good report on HRA website, even your MP may have helped! More steam railways than you may have known about.

 

https://www.hra.uk.com/

[009 micro modeller]

Perhaps we should reopen a closed coal mine for small scale extraction of coal for heritage use, with the railways serving the colliery using heritage stock and the surrounding environment and buildings also restored (perhaps including Victorian village, canal wharf to show how coal was originally transported etc etc). It will then serve the dual purpose of providing fuel for steam-powered heritage vehicles and allowing the creation of a living museum showing the industrial, social and of course railway heritage of the coal industry.

 

I originally thought of this as a deliberately silly idea but it’s actually starting to sound quite good...

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

I can't see the point in converting steam locos to Diesel firing instead of coal - given that Diesel is even more vilified, I suspect that easy availability of that will end within the next 20-30 years, as IC road vehicles go - possibly even before easily available coal does...

 

The pessimist in me thinks that operational steam doesn't have a huge amount of time left, so we need to enjoy it while we can...

The problem with getting rid of diesel altogether is that there are plenty of uses for it that currently don't look like they have particularly viable alternatives, such as portable power sources - all those diesel generators up and down the country that aren't often noticed but we'd find difficult indeed to do without, whether they're for traffic lights on roadworks in remote places or backup power supplies for hospitals.

 

I don't think we need to be too worried about steam ending, the biggest danger would be the price going up and some of the smaller operators not managing, which would be sad, but not the end of it.

[Dava]

38 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Perhaps we should reopen a closed coal mine for small scale extraction of coal for heritage use, with the railways serving the colliery using heritage stock and the surrounding environment and buildings also restored (perhaps including Victorian village, canal wharf to show how coal was originally transported etc etc). It will then serve the dual purpose of providing fuel for steam-powered heritage vehicles and allowing the creation of a living museum showing the industrial, social and of course railway heritage of the coal industry.

 

I originally thought of this as a deliberately silly idea but it’s actually starting to sound quite good...

 

OK let's form an orderly queue of Bevans' Boys to volunteer to work in a preserved coal mine! It's been suggested but once you start looking at the regulation, safety and environmental issues it becomes much less attractive and very likely to be uneconomic. Coal mining is an expensive operation, even on a small scale.

 

There are preserved lines in Scotland [Waterside, Bo'Ness] and the North-East [Middleton to Tanfield, Beamish, North Tyne] which sit on former coal mines which closed when uneconomic. Most people no longer want to live next to a coal mine. By contrast we have a gypsum mine 1km away and you wouldn't know it's there. 

[009 micro modeller]

5 minutes ago, Dava said:

 

OK let's form an orderly queue of Bevans' Boys to volunteer to work in a preserved coal mine! It's been suggested but once you start looking at the regulation, safety and environmental issues it becomes much less attractive and very likely to be uneconomic. Coal mining is an expensive operation, even on a small scale.

 

There are preserved lines in Scotland [Waterside, Bo'Ness] and the North-East [Middleton to Tanfield, Beamish, North Tyne] which sit on former coal mines which closed when uneconomic. Most people no longer want to live next to a coal mine. By contrast we have a gypsum mine 1km away and you wouldn't know it's there. 

Yes, it was never a particularly serious suggestion, I’m surprised if as you say others have suggested it. Reading some of the articles about this, there also seems to be concern that a lot of coal is pulverised at source in preparation for power generation and industrial use, whereas steam locomotive coal needs to be in larger pieces.

[Dava]

I recall Kilmersdon colliery linked to the SDJR project at Radstock was the first, way back in about 1973....lots of railways and museums on closed/worked out pit sites, Foxfield and Black Country Museum being two. 

 

 

 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Perhaps we should reopen a closed coal mine for small scale extraction of coal for heritage use, with the railways serving the colliery using heritage stock and the surrounding environment and buildings also restored (perhaps including Victorian village, canal wharf to show how coal was originally transported etc etc). It will then serve the dual purpose of providing fuel for steam-powered heritage vehicles and allowing the creation of a living museum showing the industrial, social and of course railway heritage of the coal industry.

 

I originally thought of this as a deliberately silly idea but it’s actually starting to sound quite good...

Both Beamish & the Black Country Living Museum have an on site pit.

Plus there are other "preserved but working" museum pits such as Big Pit, Blaenavon.

All of these are just demonstration mines but I wonder how much coal they could extract if they really tried?

 

Just a thought.

[doilum]

17 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Perhaps we should reopen a closed coal mine for small scale extraction of coal for heritage use, with the railways serving the colliery using heritage stock and the surrounding environment and buildings also restored (perhaps including Victorian village, canal wharf to show how coal was originally transported etc etc). It will then serve the dual purpose of providing fuel for steam-powered heritage vehicles and allowing the creation of a living museum showing the industrial, social and of course railway heritage of the coal industry.

 

I originally thought of this as a deliberately silly idea but it’s actually starting to sound quite good...

Sorry. Once a mine is closed, that is it. Flooding, gas accumulation and ground movements make old workings impossible within a relatively short time. As new deep mines are hugely expensive, future supplies would have to come from open casting or reworking colliery waste stacks.

[meil]

15 hours ago, melmerby said:

Both Beamish & the Black Country Living Museum have an on site pit.

Plus there are other "preserved but working" museum pits such as Big Pit, Blaenavon.

All of these are just demonstration mines but I wonder how much coal they could extract if they really tried?

 

Just a thought.

Black Country Museum - None! It was built for the museum - there aint no coal.