LMS Streamlined Coronations Cab Roofs

[Wolseley]

I am in the process of doing up some old Tri-ang/Hornby streamlined LMS Princess Coronations that I intend to put into service on my layout, but I was looking for some guidance on exactly how the cab roofs should be painted - specifically how much of the roof was painted black.  The problem for me is that the Tri-ang/Hornby models are inconsistent in their treatment of the roof and it is difficult to tell from period photographs, which are of course, black and white, which surface is red (or blue) and which is black.  Also almost all the photographs of the restored Duchess of Sutherland have been taken from at or near ground level, making it difficult to tell how the roof has been painted.

 

These are the three different ways that the models have been finished:

 

To my eyes, the one on the left looks as if it might be right, but then, I'm not 100% certain.  I intend to have two red locomotives, one blue one and one black (obviously I won't have any problems with painting the black one).  

 

Now, I am not aiming for superdetailed models that would win prizes in a competition, but I do at least want to get the painting right.  Can anyone advise me how these cab roofs were painted?

[LMS2968]

The one on the left is correct, mate!

[Gibbo675]

Hi Wolsley,

 

I have just had a look at my Colour of Steam book, The LMS Pacifics, by Derick Huntriss, published by Atlantic and there are only two colour photographs of streamlined locomotives. There is a photograph of 6224 in blue with a black central section and blue from the gutter to the rain strip as the model on the left and 6227 in red from a still of a cine film where the cab roof appears all black.

 

Tricky call !

 

Gibbo. 

[Pete the Elaner]

44 minutes ago, Wolseley said:

Also almost all the photographs of the restored Duchess of Sutherland have been taken from at or near ground level, making it difficult to tell how the roof has been painted.

 

Sutherland was never streamlined. It is Hamilton which has had a casing re-applied.

I am not sure the restoration would be 100% accurate anyway. It would depend on how detailed documents were...those which have not been lost for various reasons.

There may even have been some differences within the class, especially after a re-visit to the works for some repairs.

[Wolseley]

18 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Sutherland was never streamlined. It is Hamilton which has had a casing re-applied.

 

I stand corrected - of course it was the Duchess of Hamilton.  Memo to self : check facts before posting and don't rely on memory.......

[LMS2968]

Photos can be deceiving: the roof wasn't normally cleaned - as also the top of the boiler - so became black over time irrespective of the colour below the dirt.

[Gibbo675]

7 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

Photos can be deceiving: the roof wasn't normally cleaned - as also the top of the boiler - so became black over time irrespective of the colour below the dirt.

Hi LMS,

 

Quite plausible that the roof section was dirty, also that a red section would be painted as the shewn in the photo of the blue one. Having had another look at the book this evening it seems that the lower section of roof was always coloured red or blue in LMS days and was also coloured in early BR days but sometime in the mid 1950's the style went more toward an all black roof with exceptions here and there.

 

Gibbo.

[billy_anorak59]

Not totally conclusive due to light and distance, but I took this in 2015 - looks all red to me? Might help anyway.

Edited August 1, 2022 by billy_anorak59

[LMS2968]

This isn't am easy one: colour photos of streamlined Pacifics pre-war aren't plentiful and when available, don't usually reveal the roof colour. The central section of the cab roof was always black on non-streamlined engines, as other classes, but the lower panels matched the incurved tops of the tenders, which I always assumed to be reason for their colour. Although the first streamlined engines, and the preserved 6229, had the tender coal space open as normal, a shroud was later fitted to the front end, semi-circular to the back end. What colour was this? Was it red, and was all the cab roof pained to match? I don't know, but a painting by George Heiron on the cover of Locomotives Illustrated No. 91 shows a red streamlined 6224 with black shroud and inside cab roof.

 

Tricky!

[eastglosmog]

I saw a DVD of the Coronation Scot yesterday evening, taken I think 1937/8.  On most of the film, it was difficult to tell what the cab roof colour was due to steam and glare (loco had been well polished), but there was one overhead shot where it certainly appeared that the middle of Wolseley's options was the paint scheme at that time, i.e. red roof with black ventilator covers as a distinct difference in tone is visible. 

[Steamport Southport]

I seem to recall they stopped painting the eaves of the roof loco colour about 1938. Definitely did on locomotives such as Jubilees. They received an all black roof.

 

Whether that applied to Coronations is debatable. I'll have a look in the Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives book later. All the painting details are in it.

 

 

Jason

[LMS2968]

The Big 'uns certainly had the eaves paint to match the boiler in BR days - there are plenty of photos of this.

[5 C]

The book "The Big Four in Colour 1935-50" has some useful colour photographs of streamlined Coronations.

 

Page 11 shows blue 6224 Princess Alexandra at Shrewsbury in 1938. The way the light catches the roof means the colour is inconclusive. See colourrail.co.uk reference LM20.

 

Page 12 shows blue 6222 Queen Mary at Euston in 1938. This three quarter away photograph clearly shows blue eaves and roof. See colourrail.co.uk LM65

 

Page 13 red 6227 Duchess of Devonshire at Euston 1938. The roof and eaves appear to be black, but so do the cab windows so it's either a trick of the light or dirt. See colourraail.co.uk LM50

 

Page 13 red 6220 Coronation (in reality 6229 Duchess of Hamilton) on tour in the USA in 1939. Again, the light doesn't help, but the roof and eaves would appear to be red.

 

Contrast this with page 14 with two views of unstreamlined 6232 Duchess of Montrose. The picture at Shrewsbury on a running in turn (colourrail.co.uk LM21) shows possibly red eaves and black roof, whereas the same loco at Euston looking rather more work stained shows up as black in both areas.

[5 C]

Coronation/Duchess of Hamilton on tour in 1940. Again, another colour shot showing the roof and eaves most probably in red.

 

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3443090

Edited June 12, 2019 by 5 C
Correction to photo date.

[Wolseley]

Thanks for the replies so far.  As well as checking out the references given above (the American photograph, in particular, is fascinating), I have been revisiting my copies of Profile of the Duchesses and Power of the Duchesses and having a much closer look at the illustrations of the streamlined locomotives.  Most of them are taken from too low down a viewpoint to help and, in most of those that were not, being black and white, it's rather difficult, if not impossible, to tell whether a surface is painted black or is just dirty, or if it's body colour or just shiny.  From the few where there is a hint of a clue as to the colour, it seems that there are photographs that tend to support each of the three versions produced by Tri-ang/Hornby (as reproduced in my photo at the beginning of this thread).  I can't help thinking now that not all the blue or red streamliners were given exactly the same treatment.