Why did the shirtbutton change?

[Coombe Barton]

From 1934 to 1942 the GWR used the circular, Art Deco type badge, logo, or whatever (http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesbutton.html), for identifyng their brand, having changed from the much more ornate (and costly to apyly) coart of arms based identification (http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriescoat.html). Then they changfed it in 1942 to G W R, (http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1942plain.html) a more ornate and expensive design to apply.

 

Why?

 

Was the shirtbutton so unpopular that they changed in in the middle of wartime when the country's mind was preoccupied elsewhere? I'm assuming that it was changed for marketing purposes, but don't know

 

I've being trying to find out the details of why the change was made. But none of the books I have gives much of a lead on this. Can anyone suggest a reason?

[gwrrob]

Thats an interesting question John.I think the shirtbutton was unpopular like you say and it was just another brand change.I think thats the reason shirt button liveried models don't sell well.

[Donw]

Could it be the change from Collet to Hawksworth? Sooner or later all new bosses like to put their stamp on things.

Donw

[coachmann]

Was it something to do with the blackout..... LMS or LNER crew climb on footplate of strange loco and see one gauge glass is missing and so fail the loco? GWR writ large on loco might give them a clue!

[Guest dilbert]

Then they changed it in 1942 to G W R, (http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1942plain.html) a more ornate and expensive design to apply.

 

Why?

 

Was the shirtbutton so unpopular that they changed in in the middle of wartime when the country's mind was preoccupied elsewhere? I'm assuming that it was changed for marketing purposes, but don't know

 

I've being trying to find out the details of why the change was made. But none of the books I have gives much of a lead on this. Can anyone suggest a reason?

 

It has been oft stated that the sb was unpopular and that particularly on locomotives, the sb logo did not successfully project the company image. It was however for that time an interesting approach in the railway world to develop a logo to present the company brand - something which to my knowledge, the LMS, LNER, and SR may have dabbled with, but did not roll out on the scale the GW did.

 

The last branding may have been more expensive to apply, but changing any corporate brand needs time to gain momentum. If the cost of the new format was more expensive than the application of the roundel, then this would have been partly offset initially by not applying lining to those loco classes which would have normally received lining.

 

Post 1945, lining was gradually re-introduced on Express locomotives, as also was buffer beam numbering. I tend to agree that the sb change was marketing driven, but that GWR had a long term plan to develop the last livery design (that was short-lived in any case)...dilbert

[Coombe Barton]

So was the choice of logo/livery marketing led or CME led? I take the point that it seems more than coincidental that liveries changed (simplified) in 1923 and 1942, but was it cost or marketing leading?

 

[Edit] I suppose there were bean counters then

 

[second Edit] And considering that I teach in the Department of Accountancy and Finance that's good coming from me

[The Stationmaster]

I somehow doubt there was much interesting in either marketing or brand image on the GWR in 1942, even though it had been well into both pre-war and got back into the swing post-war. But they did - I think - produce some sort of forward looking booklet towards the end of the war (apart from the one post-war).

 

I suspect a much simpler answer - either they ran out of transfers and couldn't get any more so went for the simplest and cheapest painted alternative or, as already suggested, they wanted to make their loco ownership slightly more noticeable through the increasing grime of wartime.

[Guest dilbert]

Marketing led - the strategy would have been influenced by operational constraints from the CME. It would have been cheaper to apply a simple symbol such as a triangle, square et al if this approach had been totally cost driven (and an absolute disaster from the arcane art of marketing viewpoint in the context of WWII)...dlbert

[Coombe Barton]

Of course, looking at other events of the time it could have been morale boostinmg - return to 'old fashioned' values, perhaps? Now I know nothing about films, I know a darned sight more about the music. 1942 rang a bell with Walton's music for 'The First of the Few' - and from the Wikipedia page on Walton = "During World War II, Walton was granted leave from military service in order to compose music for wartime propaganda films, such as The First of the Few (1942), and Laurence Olivier's adaptation of Shakespeare's Henry V (1944), which Winston Churchill encouraged Olivier to adapt as if it were a piece of morale-boosting propaganda." I've also looked at Vaughan Williams film music and he was active during the war - 49th Parallel, 1940, his first, talked into it by Muir Mathieson to assuage his guilt at being able to do nothing for the war effort - Coastal Command, 1942 - BBC adaptation of The Pilgrim's Progress, 1942 - The People's Land, 1943 - The Story of a Flemish Farm, 1943 - Stricken Peninsula, 1945 - all plots that could be interpreted as propoganda.

 

I'm also looking at that Bauhaus movement that, to my un-art-educated mind, is German Art Deco. Could it be that the style of the logo was seen as 'too advanced' and they needed something more 'English'?

 

Now this has shown that my knowledge of the fine arts is sady deficient. It's just more supposition.

[coachmann]

Brian Haresnape writing in Railway Liveries 1923-47 said overall plain black was adopted during the war for locos going through general overhaul (others were touched up and Kings/Castles were painted unlined green). "Perhaps to aleviate the gloom, Hawksworth decided to do away with the GWR monogram in 1942 (except for non-passenger brown stock : road vehicles and containers) and he introduced the full coat of arms flanked by 'C' and 'W' for the more important locomotives. Lesser types carried the letters GWR widely spaced".

[Guest dilbert]

Not sure about all of that but going completely OT, the reference to Vaughan Williams reminds me of when a combined "London Schools Orchestra" performed a series of concerts at the FairField Halls in Croydon in 1972 - this was in celebration of the centenary of the birth of the composer.

 

A part of this was related to VWs' arrangements of both Sea Shanties and English Folk music, which are truly magnificent... there is one particular song that I still enjoy hearing and that is "O Mistress Mine" - I think this is principally due to that fact that as a young tenor I had this huge crush on a young lady who sang with the sopranos - we even dated on a few occasions - happy days (my parents have a double LP of the concerts which I must get transformed into digital format at some stage)...dilbert

[steve fay]

I think it was more to do with Hawksworth stamping his mark on The Great Western. Ive always been a fan of the shirtbutton logo it ws very art deco and modern for the time. Even the later BR totems where very victorian in appearence it wasnt untill the double arrows where brought in hat BR had a 'modern' symbol.

I think a castle with full lining out frames aswell with the shirtbutton on it looks superb it isnt seen enough now on models or preserved locos.

Although I dont think models with the shirtbutton sell aswell generally but then there not released often enough.

[petethemole]

Given that it was the middle of the war and austerity and economy were major issues, I wonder to what extent the new livery was actually applied before mid 1945? Most locos due a repaint were probably still being painted black and coaches brown. New wooden wagons were unpainted. I'm still researching for my GWR+SR in WW2 layout and still need to go through a lot of books and mags but I get the impression that the new livery on coaches didn't appear until mid 1945, although it would appear that some locos got "GWR" insignia. Certainly both shirtbutton logos and "GREAT WESTERN" still commonly appeared on locos until well after 1948, although the front line classes mainly got "BRITISH RAILWAYS" fairly rapidly. Any further information or suggestions for sources on the period would be welcome.

Pete

[Adrian Wintle]

Given that it was the middle of the war and austerity and economy were major issues, I wonder to what extent the new livery was actually applied before mid 1945? Most locos due a repaint were probably still being painted black and coaches brown. New wooden wagons were unpainted. I'm still researching for my GWR+SR in WW2 layout and still need to go through a lot of books and mags but I get the impression that the new livery on coaches didn't appear until mid 1945, although it would appear that some locos got "GWR" insignia. Certainly both shirtbutton logos and "GREAT WESTERN" still commonly appeared on locos until well after 1948, although the front line classes mainly got "BRITISH RAILWAYS" fairly rapidly. Any further information or suggestions for sources on the period would be welcome.

Pete

 

There are a couple of official (ex-works) pictures in Russell of new coaches in the wartime (all brown) scheme with, IIRC, 'GWR' over the crest (basically the pre-1935 lettering), so I'm not sure whether the change from shirtbutton to crest didn't pre-date the change in font and the addition of 'Great Western' for the carriage livery.

 

Adrian