Dockside Cranes

[paul59]

11 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

 

The ruler is indicated by the red arrow.

 

 

On my version of Google the ruler is accessed with a right click on the mouse. Great little tool.

[paul59]

7 hours ago, petethemole said:

The original cranes at Ocean Dock, also by S&P, were these

 

S&P also supplied the cranes for Town Quay, which I mentioned earlier during discussion of the Airfix kit.  Southampton Harbour Board controlled the Town Quay and Royal Pier area west of the LSWR-owned Docks, which belonged to the Borough.

 

Excellent photos, thanks for posting.

Paul

 

[paul59]

Using the google measure, I get 3.8m approx, 12.5ft. Correlating with the nearby permanent way suggest it's fairly accurate..ish.

I did measure the old crane tracks at Surrey docks last month, using the iPhone measuring app, they were more like 13ft.

Paul

[SteveyDee68]

On 26/07/2022 at 13:49, paul59 said:

I’m just in the process of laying down the track for a dockside diorama based on Southampton Ocean Terminal.

Hopefully you’ll share here on RMWeb - this will be a layout I’d be very interested in seeing!

 

Steve S

[paul59]

20 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

Hopefully you’ll share here on RMWeb - this will be a layout I’d be very interested in seeing!

 

Steve S

So would I !!!!

I started off at a good pace, but got bogged down with making turnout switches and the MERG control system. It is my first ever layout, so a big leaning curve.

Paul.

[phil_sutters]

23 hours ago, paul59 said:

On my version of Google the ruler is accessed with a right click on the mouse. Great little tool.

The layout of the menu on my version is different but I have now found the tool. I am still getting 5.4m / 17.5ft.

[Siberian Snooper]

8 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

The layout of the menu on my version is different but I have now found the tool. I am still getting 5.4m / 17.5ft.

 

As I said further up the post, the accuracy tends to be within plus or minus a foot or so.

 

 

[phil_sutters]

16 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

As I said further up the post, the accuracy tends to be within plus or minus a foot or so.

 

 

.... but the difference between the measurements quoted is about 5ft, which could be significant when making a model.

[BR traction instructor]

Dockside unloading at Silloth this morning…

 

BeRTIe

[D River]

3 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

.... but the difference between the measurements quoted is about 5ft, which could be significant when making a model.

Track gauges and Google Earth...a bit more,

 

Using Google Earth for the cranes I posted the photos of at the QE2 Terminal in Southampton's East Docks the gauge comes out at around 17'6".  Using the same magnification and measuring tool the track gauge between the crane rails comes out at about 4.8 feet which is close to correct.  The historic image layers (click on the date in the bottom left of the screen show the cranes I photographed in position on those rails back in 2007, again, the measurements appear to show 17'6" for these particular cranes.  However, although cranes could be moved around the docks by the floating cranes there were different owners (as pointed out above) for The Town Quay and this had different cranes.  Google Earth does appear to show the same 17'6" (ish) gauge in the West Docks to.  Clicking through each image in the historic layers box does show some interesting anomalies however, photos that don't quite join, apparent changes in track gauge or what could be blurred out ship for two things...so it as only a guide as already mentioned.

 

Its also worth mentioning that "Gauge" in terms of the crane rails was a centre to centre measurement as there were different forms.  Southampton had pairs of rails with a centrally flanged wheel, London seemed to favour a central rail with outside flanged wheels and flangeway guards.  As my own models were at 2mm and static I simply sat the wheels in a painted groove.  I think that's called cheating...😬

Edited July 29, 2022 by D River
Additional gauge info

[D River]

Gauges and crane rails...

 

Having just mentioned different forms of crane rails, I took another look at a drawing I have of Dundee and found this - a mixture of the two types, just to add to the confusion.  Photographs show a single rail on the outside and a double rail on the inside at Dundee and at Avonmouth.

 

The second photo shows more detail of these arrangements - the central rail / double flange type used in London, and the double rail / single flange type at Bristol.  This was also as used at Southampton East and West docks, with the final photo showing wheel detail from the East Docks.  Just writing all that makes my head ache...😖

Edited July 29, 2022 by D River
photo

[paul59]

10 hours ago, D River said:

Track gauges and Google Earth...a bit more,

 

Using Google Earth for the cranes I posted the photos of at the QE2 Terminal in Southampton's East Docks the gauge comes out at around 17'6".  Using the same magnification and measuring tool the track gauge between the crane rails comes out at about 4.8 feet which is close to correct.  The historic image layers (click on the date in the bottom left of the screen show the cranes I photographed in position on those rails back in 2007, again, the measurements appear to show 17'6" for these particular cranes.  However, although cranes could be moved around the docks by the floating cranes there were different owners (as pointed out above) for The Town Quay and this had different cranes.  Google Earth does appear to show the same 17'6" (ish) gauge in the West Docks to.  Clicking through each image in the historic layers box does show some interesting anomalies however, photos that don't quite join, apparent changes in track gauge or what could be blurred out ship for two things...so it as only a guide as already mentioned.

 

Its also worth mentioning that "Gauge" in terms of the crane rails was a centre to centre measurement as there were different forms.  Southampton had pairs of rails with a centrally flanged wheel, London seemed to favour a central rail with outside flanged wheels and flangeway guards.  As my own models were at 2mm and static I simply sat the wheels in a painted groove.  I think that's called cheating...😬

Oh well we're only 5' apart.....

[paul59]

10 hours ago, D River said:

Track gauges and Google Earth...a bit more,

 

Using Google Earth for the cranes I posted the photos of at the QE2 Terminal in Southampton's East Docks the gauge comes out at around 17'6".  Using the same magnification and measuring tool the track gauge between the crane rails comes out at about 4.8 feet which is close to correct.  The historic image layers (click on the date in the bottom left of the screen show the cranes I photographed in position on those rails back in 2007, again, the measurements appear to show 17'6" for these particular cranes.  However, although cranes could be moved around the docks by the floating cranes there were different owners (as pointed out above) for The Town Quay and this had different cranes.  Google Earth does appear to show the same 17'6" (ish) gauge in the West Docks to.  Clicking through each image in the historic layers box does show some interesting anomalies however, photos that don't quite join, apparent changes in track gauge or what could be blurred out ship for two things...so it as only a guide as already mentioned.

 

Its also worth mentioning that "Gauge" in terms of the crane rails was a centre to centre measurement as there were different forms.  Southampton had pairs of rails with a centrally flanged wheel, London seemed to favour a central rail with outside flanged wheels and flangeway guards.  As my own models were at 2mm and static I simply sat the wheels in a painted groove.  I think that's called cheating...😬

 

[paul59]

10 hours ago, D River said:

Track gauges and Google Earth...a bit more,

 

Using Google Earth for the cranes I posted the photos of at the QE2 Terminal in Southampton's East Docks the gauge comes out at around 17'6".  Using the same magnification and measuring tool the track gauge between the crane rails comes out at about 4.8 feet which is close to correct.  The historic image layers (click on the date in the bottom left of the screen show the cranes I photographed in position on those rails back in 2007, again, the measurements appear to show 17'6" for these particular cranes.  However, although cranes could be moved around the docks by the floating cranes there were different owners (as pointed out above) for The Town Quay and this had different cranes.  Google Earth does appear to show the same 17'6" (ish) gauge in the West Docks to.  Clicking through each image in the historic layers box does show some interesting anomalies however, photos that don't quite join, apparent changes in track gauge or what could be blurred out ship for two things...so it as only a guide as already mentioned.

 

Its also worth mentioning that "Gauge" in terms of the crane rails was a centre to centre measurement as there were different forms.  Southampton had pairs of rails with a centrally flanged wheel, London seemed to favour a central rail with outside flanged wheels and flangeway guards.  As my own models were at 2mm and static I simply sat the wheels in a painted groove.  I think that's called cheating...😬

OK, I think your measurement is better than mine, so I'go with yours. I was measuring the wrong lines. Although it doesn't make any difference Ocean Terminal was on the White Star wharf, was just up from the QE2 wharf. 

Thank you for the input, much appreciated.

Paul.

[paul59]

My diorama is based loosely on this view. 

[D River]

13 hours ago, paul59 said:

My diorama is based loosely on this view. 

Look forward to seeing that - I used to spend ages shunting and waiting with car trains on the two lines to the right of the site, a lot of the track seen here at 43/44 berth was visible 15 years or so ago, but has been ploughed up since.  The cranes went before that, there was a solitary Stothert and Pitt here about twenty years ago, but in pre digital times I never thought to photograph it.  The track gauge appears to be the same here - the cranes were moved around the docks, so that makes sense. Despite looking I've not found any drawings detailed enough for models of these older S and P cranes, but to be fair I've not delved too deeply into the archives and they came in a range of designs. They don't feature in the Ocean Terminal Plans I have either, so it'll be great to see what you come up with.  Best of luck with it 🙂

[SteveyDee68]

22 hours ago, D River said:

Despite looking I've not found any drawings detailed enough for models of these older S and P cranes, but to be fair I've not delved too deeply into the archives and they came in a range of designs.

Wow! That sounds so familiar! 🤭 You took the words right out of my mouth!

 

Steve S

[paul59]

On 30/07/2022 at 11:58, D River said:

Look forward to seeing that - I used to spend ages shunting and waiting with car trains on the two lines to the right of the site, a lot of the track seen here at 43/44 berth was visible 15 years or so ago, but has been ploughed up since.  The cranes went before that, there was a solitary Stothert and Pitt here about twenty years ago, but in pre digital times I never thought to photograph it.  The track gauge appears to be the same here - the cranes were moved around the docks, so that makes sense. Despite looking I've not found any drawings detailed enough for models of these older S and P cranes, but to be fair I've not delved too deeply into the archives and they came in a range of designs. They don't feature in the Ocean Terminal Plans I have either, so it'll be great to see what you come up with.  Best of luck with it 🙂

Thanks for that, I have a long way to go as yet. Are you still local? I lived in Warsash until 1970, lived in Essex since.

[D River]

54 minutes ago, paul59 said:

Thanks for that, I have a long way to go as yet. Are you still local? I lived in Warsash until 1970, lived in Essex since.

Yes, still reasonably local for the time being - although down the years the port has changed tremendously.

[Pacific231G]

On 27/07/2022 at 10:49, D River said:

 

The Stothert and Pitt drawings for DD2 cranes I have (one set in the Stothert and Pitt Book) show different gauges. The Port of London 5 Ton DD2's are shown at 13'6" gauge which is enough to straddle a wagon.  However, it does seem to have varied port to port as the gauge in Southampton always seemed wider to me wondering about the docks, the photos below are around the QE2 terminal which Google Earth shows as circa 17'6"...

I've also been looking at "Stothert & Pitt Cranemakers to the World" and in the extract from the 1959 house magazine they quote 13ft 6ins  rail centres for a "typical" DD2 5 ton crane and 10ft 1ins for a "typical" DD2 3 ton crane. The line drawing for the  5 ton cranes supplied to the PLA doesn't actually include the gauge but I think it's a safe bet that was the "typical" example as the other dimensions are the same. Looking at that, at some of the other photos in the book and my own photos taken at Southampton's western docks (berth 103) it does seem clear that the rail centres there were a great deal wider than those at the London docks. There is a photo (on p63) of an S&P 5 ton  Toplis level lufffing cargo handling crane in about 1935 in Southampton on a berth- I don't know which one but I think it's in the Eastern Docks-  used by Union Castle but the rail centres do appear to be narrower- quite possibly around 10ft-  than those used by the later cranes in the port. That crane also appears to be an earlier model of S&P's crank luffed cranes- a system for which Toplis was granted a patent in the early 1920s.

I took these two photos in 2015 after taking two friends to Southampton for a cruise on the Azure so I'm afraid I wasn't focussing on the cranes. The width of the van should give a scale for the rail centres.

 

I'm sort of guessing that, for a completely new port installation, S&P would offer you  a standard design with a standard rail distance but would equally accomodate you if you already had adequate crane tracks installed. I must say that the PLA DD2 5 ton cranes do look a bit top heavy on 13ft 6ins gauge rails. The Southampton cranes look far more comfortable.

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Pacific231G

[paul59]

Thanks for the information David, I think, when all is said and done, I am confined by the track spacing i have, 60mm (15'). So eventually when i do build  the crane, assuming 17.5ft, I may have to scale it to fit.

Paul

[billywhizz]

Hi. Just come across the thread. I am currently planning a small quayside layout based in the 1980’s and have been looking into cranes. Are there any drawings available for S&P 5 ton cranes. 
the only kit I could find for a modern(ish) looking dockside crane was a Kibri kit. 
Cheers

Bill. 

[paul59]

Hi Bill,

I read though this thread a few days back, I do recall Pacific231G listed some kits somewhere in it. Whether they are relevant i don't know.

Paul

[phil_sutters]

I don't think that I have uploaded this image before, as I have only just returned to that bunch of photos to finish processing them.

[phil_sutters]

I have just come across this delightful ancient habourside crane in the other, photosharing, website I frequent. This design keeps all those tricky cogs and gears out of sight!

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/2336232/51642298

Edited November 3, 2022 by phil_sutters