Cobbling a Collett Goods

[2996 Victor]

Dear All,

 

as if I haven't got enough projects planned (and even started), I'd quite like to add a 4mm scale Collett Goods to my roster, in circa 1950-1955 condition. As with my Dean Goods project, I'm aiming for a locomotive that was based at 83B Taunton in that period; there are several possibilities.

 

However, the problem seems to be finding a jumping-off point. Unless I want to scratch- or kit-build (I don't!), the Bachmann effort seems to be the only game in town. Other threads I've found on here touch on a few shortcomings in the model's dimensions, but seem to focus mainly on the DC/DCC issue, and the lack of hauling power thanks to low adhesion due to its light weight. So, before I get too involved, what are the model's main shortcomings? A comprehensive list is the key here. And have other owners done much to their models to bring them up to scratch? Or am I breaking new ground (extremely unlikely!).

 

As an aside, I'm quite intrigued by the ROD-tendered Colletts, but which locos had them seems to be a bit of a mystery. I understand that five had them from new (2281-2286), but that others were used in a piecemeal fashion. That the majority came from withdrawn Aberdares suggests they were more a feature of South Wales locos (?), but it'd be interesting to discover if any locos so equipped ever made it to Taunton.

 

This will be another of my glacial projects, but hopefully before too long I'll have some sort of progress to report.

 

Cheers for now!

 

Mark

[hayfield]

Mark

 

Why not if possible use a Keyser body as the starting point, always come up on eBay quite cheaply, solves the weight issue

[Denbridge]

3 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Mark

 

Why not if possible use a Keyser body as the starting point, always come up on eBay quite cheaply, solves the weight issue

Think you mean Wills/ SE Finecast rather than K's, who I'm pretty certain never produced a 2251. The ultimate of course would be the superb Finney kit now sold by Brassmasters. 

[hayfield]

Sorry, misread it as a Dean Goods. Yes the Wills/SEF are equally common, certainly the Wills model will fit the older style Hornby chassis, which can be enhanced with a Mainly Trains coupling rods (From Wizard Models). Or go the whole hog and build a SEF detailed etched chassis

[Dunsignalling]

The haulage issue with the Bachmann 2251 isn't all about the lack of weight. Bachmann steam outline locos in general tend to be "slippy" when new but improve the more you run them. Mine struggled with more than three coaches/eight wagons when I first got it but now manages double that on level track without difficulty, probably as much as would be expected of the prototype under normal circumstances.

 

The difference happens from wearing the newness off the wheels and the way to do that is with running, and lots of it. 

 

John

Edited July 31, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Dear All,

 

as if I haven't got enough projects planned (and even started), I'd quite like to add a 4mm scale Collett Goods to my roster, in circa 1950-1955 condition. As with my Dean Goods project, I'm aiming for a locomotive that was based at 83B Taunton in that period; there are several possibilities.

 

However, the problem seems to be finding a jumping-off point. Unless I want to scratch- or kit-build (I don't!), the Bachmann effort seems to be the only game in town. Other threads I've found on here touch on a few shortcomings in the model's dimensions, but seem to focus mainly on the DC/DCC issue, and the lack of hauling power thanks to low adhesion due to its light weight. So, before I get too involved, what are the model's main shortcomings? A comprehensive list is the key here. And have other owners done much to their models to bring them up to scratch? Or am I breaking new ground (extremely unlikely!).

 

As an aside, I'm quite intrigued by the ROD-tendered Colletts, but which locos had them seems to be a bit of a mystery. I understand that five had them from new (2281-2286), but that others were used in a piecemeal fashion. That the majority came from withdrawn Aberdares suggests they were more a feature of South Wales locos (?), but it'd be interesting to discover if any locos so equipped ever made it to Taunton.

 

This will be another of my glacial projects, but hopefully before too long I'll have some sort of progress to report.

 

Cheers for now!

 

Mark

The ROD tenders came (naturally) from RODs, some via Aberdares. IIRC most of the latter went to Swindon for scrapping so the tenders could have ended up on Colletts from anywhere on the basis of need/availability. I think a couple even ended up at Templecombe S&D after the WR took that line over.

 

Bear in mind also that fifty of the RODs bought by the GWR (knowingly) were half-knackered examples intended to be run 'til they dropped then cannibalised to keep the rest going. When the "good ones" finally wore out, the tenders from those became available too. 

 

John  

[2996 Victor]

12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The ROD tenders came (naturally) from RODs, some via Aberdares. IIRC most of the latter went to Swindon for scrapping so the tenders could have ended up on Colletts from anywhere on the basis of need/availability. I think a couple even ended up at Templecombe S&D after the WR took that line over.

 

Bear in mind also that fifty of the RODs bought by the GWR (knowingly) were half-knackered examples intended to be run 'til they dropped then cannibalised to keep the rest going. When the "good ones" finally wore out, the tenders from those became available too. 

 

John  

 

Hi John,

 

thanks for the extra info on the ROD tenders! I'm starting to go through my books covering the Minehead branch in the hope of finding a Collett so fitted, but I suspect the extra weight may have exceeded the line's limit. I would have thought that the Taunton Colletts also worked the Devon & Somerset line to Barnstaple, but I don't have much to go on (the Lightmoor Press books are on my wish list!).

 

With kind regards,

 

Mark

[2996 Victor]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and suggestions - please keep 'em coming!

 

The Wills/SEF option sounds good so I'll look into that, and while I know that the Finney kits are superb, they're well beyond my skills. I can solder a good, strong electrical joint in a classic car wiring loom, but that's the limit of my success with a soldering iron! I've tried building a couple of etched brass wagon kits but they were pretty disastrous affairs - I know practice makes perfect, but I honestly I don't want to wreck an expensive loco kit learning how to solder properly  Hence my going down the RTR-bash route 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and suggestions - please keep 'em coming!

 

The Wills/SEF option sounds good so I'll look into that, and while I know that the Finney kits are superb, they're well beyond my skills. I can solder a good, strong electrical joint in a classic car wiring loom, but that's the limit of my success with a soldering iron! I've tried building a couple of etched brass wagon kits but they were pretty disastrous affairs - I know practice makes perfect, but I honestly I don't want to wreck an expensive loco kit learning how to solder properly  Hence my going down the RTR-bash route 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Mark

 

If you can solder a wiring loom then you clearly have the skills to solder models, thing is to start with something simple and over time build more complicated items

 

At the moment nothing that I would class as good value on eBay, the choice is buy an old Wills loco and build it around a Hornby RTR chassis, which is the cheapest and easiest option, next best is use the same loco and fit an etched chassis, Comet Coaches being the cheaper option, the SEF will be much the same but with the pickups etc. You will be able to choose wheels motors and gears of your choice. The dearer (but perhaps better) is to buy the SEF kit, I think it is one of the revised kits with additional parts, certainly the quality of the whitemetal has improved. On the other hand if you wish to carve up the model and kitbash it then the cheaper the better and you could always update the chassis later

 

Good luck with the project

[2996 Victor]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Mark

 

If you can solder a wiring loom then you clearly have the skills to solder models, thing is to start with something simple and over time build more complicated items

 

At the moment nothing that I would class as good value on eBay, the choice is buy an old Wills loco and build it around a Hornby RTR chassis, which is the cheapest and easiest option, next best is use the same loco and fit an etched chassis, Comet Coaches being the cheaper option, the SEF will be much the same but with the pickups etc. You will be able to choose wheels motors and gears of your choice. The dearer (but perhaps better) is to buy the SEF kit, I think it is one of the revised kits with additional parts, certainly the quality of the whitemetal has improved. On the other hand if you wish to carve up the model and kitbash it then the cheaper the better and you could always update the chassis later

 

Good luck with the project

 

Hi John,

 

many thanks for your reply and words of encouragement! I do need to get my head around etched kit construction - I've got a Mallard 517 (my Dad bought it part-built years ago but never got around to finishing it), and a couple of Albion Metro etches. So I really should have another go and as you say start with something simple - I think perhaps a good "how-to" by one of our esteemed authors should be on my shopping list!

 

I've been trawling though that well-known online auction site, and there are several Wills Colletts, but to be honest they all look a bit grim. And I'm not entirely convinced of their proportions, particularly around the front of the firebox (its probably distortion caused by my new glasses....) but I'll keep looking!

 

Many thanks and best regards,

 

Mark

[cypherman]

Why not start with a second hand Mainline Collet goods. They are as cheap as chips and if it does not work out you have lost very little. This is the engine I mean.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

22 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

...Other threads I've found on here touch on a few shortcomings in the model's dimensions, but seem to focus mainly on the DC/DCC issue, and the lack of hauling power thanks to low adhesion due to its light weight. So, before I get too involved, what are the model's main shortcomings?...

Appearance is affected by the undersize wheelsets, They should be scaled for 5'2" nominal so somewhere in the range 20 - 20.6 mm diameter, but are more like 18mm on the model, so it looks like a slow freight shifter, rather than sprightly mixed traffic unit. There's knock on effects on footplate height, and the buffer stocks are nearer the top of the bufferbeam than they should be. One of those aspects you can start at 'live with' (possibly not even notice) ranging all the way up to 'clearly wrong'. Up to you.

 

As for traction, I second Dunsignalling. Run it for some hours if it slips with the load you want it to move, and traction will improve as the tyres polish up. And check that the tender wheels run freely. Very easy to improve further if your layout operation demands more traction, remove as much of the cast Mazak in the boiler and smokebox as you can, and as replacement pack with solid lead. It is typically possible to install double the weight of what was removed. (I beat lump lead to shape for a really efficient close fitting job, good way of working off frustrations with your least favourite pol. or whatever...) Shaped sheet lead can go up under the cab roof too if necessary, and often under cab floors too.

[DCB]

I have Bachmann, Mainline and Wills 2251. None are much good.  My best one is a Mainline body on a H/D 0-6-0 chassis. Cab full of Motor, boiler full of lead, wrong wheelbase etc  it pulls trains., which is pretty much beyond the others capabilities.

The Wills kit is too long as it has been stretched to fit an 8ft + 8ft 3" chassis instead of the correct 7ft + 8ft 3 of the 2251. Mine has all flanged 21mm Romfords and doesn't much like going around corners. The Mainline and Bachman are the right length and wheelbase but the firebox is too bulky and the whole model sits too low due to the undersize wheels.  Worse the Tender has its axles too far up the axleboxes and both Loco and Tender buffer beams are far too shallow with buffers much too high to compensate.  The Mainline chassis is abysmal but responds well to extra pickups between chassis and wheel backs, the Bachmann chassis is a bit of an enigma the wheels look far too small but measure up at around 20mm. I think the body sits too low, but why fit a vertical motor?  Neither will pull anything like a decent train. as in 20 wagons.

The Wills has a cab full of X04 motor. It can be minimised by using Super Neo magnets and trimming back the pole pieces.  It pulls well but noisily with 40:1 gears. The Cab Windows and Cab cut away are also pretty horrible and underscale.  Nothing a craft knife and needle file can't fix in 10 minutes. The cab may well be too long and the buffer beam definitely too shallow.  Optimum may be to carve up a Bachmann body, to fit a brass chassis. Make the firebox lower and narrower, but watch it, the firebox profile changed noticeably between 2251 and the post war batch, 3200 etc.

Many 2251s were built with Collett 4000 gallon tenders for accountancy purposes, these were fitted to Halls Castles etc and their tenders cascaded to lesser locos and their tenders cascaded to 2251s.   The BR built ones and possibly some earlier ones were built with the Collett 300 gallon tenders with the continuous fender round the back.  Some of these were cascaded to to Bulldogs for some reason.  Peco model the 2251 with the Collett 3500 gallon tender which one was fitted with briefly due I believe to using an Iain Beattie drawing, he drew the Collett 3500 gallon tender in RM and in his book and I got a very rude reply when I pointed out the error!

Me, well I putting the Wills 2251 on eBay,  £60 anyone?  The H/D powered one does the occasional freight turn while the Bachmann is limited to looking pretty on shed and hauling 4 coach locals.   The Mainline original can still be fund lurking on the spare loco shelf.

See Pics, the Wills is an original not the one I am selling, together with the fairly recent Bachmann and the old Mainline H/D bodge from 35 or so years ago

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by DavidCBroad

[hayfield]

You could buy a Comet Coaches chassis, couple it up with one of the High Level gearboxes and your issues with the wheelbase, performance and motor extending into the cab would be solved

[2996 Victor]

On 01/08/2019 at 15:26, cypherman said:

Why not start with a second hand Mainline Collet goods. They are as cheap as chips and if it does not work out you have lost very little. This is the engine I mean.

 

 

Hi,

 

that's certainly worth considering - the body moulding is pretty close to the Bachmann one (although as others have said, it apparently isn't the same tooling).

 

There are a couple on a certain internet auction site at present, so I'll keep an eye on them!

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

[2996 Victor]

On 01/08/2019 at 16:18, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Appearance is affected by the undersize wheelsets, They should be scaled for 5'2" nominal so somewhere in the range 20 - 20.6 mm diameter, but are more like 18mm on the model, so it looks like a slow freight shifter, rather than sprightly mixed traffic unit. There's knock on effects on footplate height, and the buffer stocks are nearer the top of the bufferbeam than they should be. One of those aspects you can start at 'live with' (possibly not even notice) ranging all the way up to 'clearly wrong'. Up to you.

 

As for traction, I second Dunsignalling. Run it for some hours if it slips with the load you want it to move, and traction will improve as the tyres polish up. And check that the tender wheels run freely. Very easy to improve further if your layout operation demands more traction, remove as much of the cast Mazak in the boiler and smokebox as you can, and as replacement pack with solid lead. It is typically possible to install double the weight of what was removed. (I beat lump lead to shape for a really efficient close fitting job, good way of working off frustrations with your least favourite pol. or whatever...) Shaped sheet lead can go up under the cab roof too if necessary, and often under cab floors too.

 

Hi ,

 

many thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. I'd understood that it was the undersize wheels that are the main cause of its stance looking slightly wrong, but I'd be re-gauging to EM so correcting that aspect shouldn't be a major headache The buffers I knew about, and I'm more than happy to replace the beams with ones with the buffers in the correct place. My main concern is whether the shape of the loco is fundamentally right, and if thats the case, I'm happy to fettle! And add weight, of course!

 

All the best,

 

Mark

[2996 Victor]

On 03/08/2019 at 14:38, DavidCBroad said:

I have Bachmann, Mainline and Wills 2251. None are much good.  My best one is a Mainline body on a H/D 0-6-0 chassis. Cab full of Motor, boiler full of lead, wrong wheelbase etc  it pulls trains., which is pretty much beyond the others capabilities.

The Wills kit is too long as it has been stretched to fit an 8ft + 8ft 3" chassis instead of the correct 7ft + 8ft 3 of the 2251. Mine has all flanged 21mm Romfords and doesn't much like going around corners. The Mainline and Bachman are the right length and wheelbase but the firebox is too bulky and the whole model sits too low due to the undersize wheels.  Worse the Tender has its axles too far up the axleboxes and both Loco and Tender buffer beams are far too shallow with buffers much too high to compensate.  The Mainline chassis is abysmal but responds well to extra pickups between chassis and wheel backs, the Bachmann chassis is a bit of an enigma the wheels look far too small but measure up at around 20mm. I think the body sits too low, but why fit a vertical motor?  Neither will pull anything like a decent train. as in 20 wagons.

The Wills has a cab full of X04 motor. It can be minimised by using Super Neo magnets and trimming back the pole pieces.  It pulls well but noisily with 40:1 gears. The Cab Windows and Cab cut away are also pretty horrible and underscale.  Nothing a craft knife and needle file can't fix in 10 minutes. The cab may well be too long and the buffer beam definitely too shallow.  Optimum may be to carve up a Bachmann body, to fit a brass chassis. Make the firebox lower and narrower, but watch it, the firebox profile changed noticeably between 2251 and the post war batch, 3200 etc.

Many 2251s were built with Collett 4000 gallon tenders for accountancy purposes, these were fitted to Halls Castles etc and their tenders cascaded to lesser locos and their tenders cascaded to 2251s.   The BR built ones and possibly some earlier ones were built with the Collett 300 gallon tenders with the continuous fender round the back.  Some of these were cascaded to to Bulldogs for some reason.  Peco model the 2251 with the Collett 3500 gallon tender which one was fitted with briefly due I believe to using an Iain Beattie drawing, he drew the Collett 3500 gallon tender in RM and in his book and I got a very rude reply when I pointed out the error!

Me, well I putting the Wills 2251 on eBay,  £60 anyone?  The H/D powered one does the occasional freight turn while the Bachmann is limited to looking pretty on shed and hauling 4 coach locals.   The Mainline original can still be fund lurking on the spare loco shelf.

See Pics, the Wills is an original not the one I am selling, together with the fairly recent Bachmann and the old Mainline H/D bodge from 35 or so years ago

 

 

 

 

 

Hi,

 

many thanks for your thoughts. I have to say that I'd thought there was something "wrong" with the Wills offering, by which I mean "differently wrong" to the Mainline/Bachmann offerings!

 

As I've mentioned somewhere just above, I'll be re-gauging so the undersize wheels on the Mainline and Bachmann 2251s hopefully won't be an issue, and also hopefully that will sort out its squatting look. Although, as both yourself Hayfield suggest and despite my wish to avoid soldering, I might head into uncharted waters (for me) with a brass chassis.....but the jury will be out on that for a good while yet! And also hopefully (!) it won't take too much effort to make a slightly better-looking firebox -  and thank you for the heads-up on the change in those pre- and post-war. Another, and fundamental, issue is the lack of motion and between-the-frame detail. It'd be interesting to know if anyone's plucked up courage to add this.....!

 

Despite my un-supportable liking for a ROD tender (I'll keep looking for a photo of one of the Taunton locos coupled to one!), there are a couple of good photos in Locomotives Illustrated of one of the Taunton stalwarts coupled to a Collett 3000-gallon continuous fender tender (that's easy for me to say ), so perhaps that is where I should be going  ultimately.

 

All the best,

 

Mark

[2996 Victor]

Further trawling of the internet has allowed me to piece together an at least partial view of the members of the class allocated to Taunton shed. No doubt, there are others that have eluded searches by those more knowledgeable than me! Once back home, I can cross-reference my list to the one in Locomotives Illustrated No.55.

 

Determining which members of the class were equipped with ROD tenders is nigh-on impossible, not least because they seem to have been swapped indiscriminately. However, whilst leafing through my late Dad's copy of "Taunton Steam" by Colin Maggs, there on page 82 is No.2267 with a ROD tender, photographed in February 1947. And lo and behold, also pictured on page 113 is No.2215, photographed in December 1946 and also sporting a ROD tender. Both were Taunton locos at the time the photos were taken.

 

No.2215 was allocated new to Barnstaple, a sub-shed of Taunton, in June 1940, and appears to have been a Taunton loco into 1948 at least. No.2267 was also allocated new to Barnstaple in June 1930, but by August 1947 had migrated to Taunton, and stayed until at least July 1954, which fits fairly well with my time-frame.

 

So, my target loco will probably be No.2267, or alternatively No.2266 or No.2268, as all three of these were long-term Taunton locos. And although I have a Bachmann example with Collett tender on the way, if I settle on No.2267 I may yet use a ROD tender as she may still have had one into the 50s, unless I find any evidence to the contrary.....

 

All good fun!

 

Cheers for now,

 

Mark

[Steamport Southport]

On 03/08/2019 at 16:21, hayfield said:

You could buy a Comet Coaches chassis, couple it up with one of the High Level gearboxes and your issues with the wheelbase, performance and motor extending into the cab would be solved

 

Or you could go the whole hog and get the High Level chassis which includes the gearbox. Also has inside valve gear and a section for the boiler barrel bottom.

 

 

http://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/collettpage.html

 

 

 

Jason