HS2 under review

[Ron Ron Ron]

Ther has been talk on here of trains coming off HS2 and on to the old network. Does that mean that the new trains will be built to the "old"(I don't know the correct terminology) gauge?

 

My non-railway friend seemed to think that the new trains will be double deckers. Can double-deckers run through the Chunnel and up HS1?

 

Please excuse my ignorance

 

Ed

 

The plan is to build the new HS lines to the larger UIC GC gauge. The same as HS1 from St. Pancras International to the Channel Tunnel.

This wil allow double-deck trains to be used if so chosen, as well as (in theory) trains from the other side of the channel.

 

To answer your other question, yes double deckers could be run on HS1.

The CT has an even larger clearance than HS1, to allow for the large double deck Shuttle trains. Double deck passenger trains would have no problem in the tunnel.

 

As for HS2, the intention so far has been to introduce two types of train onto this new network.

A "captive" fleet, that will take full advantage of the wider and taller loading gauge, but will be restricted to the HS network;

plus a "Classic compatible" fleet, that will be able to operate on both HS2 and on suitable classic lines, off the HS network.

 

The "Classic compatible" fleet will allow trains to and from the north to make use of HS2 phase 1 (London - Birmingham) as soon as it is open; continuing the rest of their journey on the existing classic lines.

When phase 2 is open to Manchester and Leeds, with the accompanying links into the WCML and ECML; these trains will be able to use more of the HS network, before transferring onto the classic lines for the remainder of their journey.

 

The use of a dual fleet is yet to be confirmed and no decision has yet been made about the use of double deck trains in the "captive" fleet.

 

 

.

[Allegheny1600]

As an enthusiast of railways, why do these plans leave me feeling rather cold?

 

If I live in Derby (which I did once upon a time), would I really want to treck all the way to Toton before I catch a (very) High Speed Train? Will the time saving be really all that great?

 

And if I live in London (which I did once upon a time too) would I want to be deposited in the middle of nowhere (Toton) to find my way to a meeting in Derby.

 

It's only 16 miles Derby to Nottingham city centre to city centre therefore Toton being halfway is approximately 8 miles from each city centre! Hardly a trek, surely?

Especially when you could simply hop on a tram for the remainder of your journey to Nottingham, bus to Derby? Maybe by then, Derby too will have trams!?!

As for me, I'm an enthusiast of modern high speed railways - as seen in Europe and I'm very exited about these plans and I believe we should have started projects like this at least twenty years ago.

NIMBY, moi? NO WAY!

According to the plans linked to by Apollo (thanks!), one of the new chords will cut across the end of my street but I'm sure we'll get a new bridge, EDIT: we do indeed!

Future trainspotting at the end of the road - woo-hoo! Something to do in my retirement!

Cheers,

John E.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Allegheny1600

[298]

As an enthusiast of railways, why do these plans leave me feeling rather cold?

 

If I live in Derby (which I did once upon a time), would I really want to treck all the way to Toton before I catch a (very) High Speed Train? Will the time saving be really all that great?

 

And if I live in London (which I did once upon a time too) would I want to be deposited in the middle of nowhere (Toton) to find my way to a meeting in Derby.

 

The local media in Coventry had a field day when they realised HS2 would be "bypassing" the city, until it was pointed out the Birmingham Airport station is more accessible for residents and business users than the Birmingham stations are for those outlying areas. The East Midlands station has to go somewhere, and Toton is the best location.

[Chris Higgs]

It's only 16 miles Derby to Nottingham city centre to city centre therefore Toton being halfway is approximately 8 miles from each city centre! Hardly a trek, surely?

Especially when you could simply hop on a tram for the remainder of your journey to Nottingham, bus to Derby? Maybe by then, Derby too will have trams!?!

 

8 miles on a tram can take rather a long time, certainly in comparison to the rapid journey you have had up to that point. And also a big comedown for an executive traveller, however I expect they will use a taxi. What is needed is a proper railway shuttle service from Toton into Derby and Nottingham stations without an interminable number of stops. I work in a German city which is endowed with a transport network most British cities would die for, and I prefer to use the S-Bahn or airport shuttle to the trams any day.

 

I can see a market still remaining for EMT (or whoever is running the Midland mainline by then) to attract customers to the existing route on the basis that the city centre to city centre travel time remains about the same. And the achilles heel of HS2, so few stops is still there. If it is Bristol or Manchester (or even Birmingham?) you want to travel to from Derby, you are better off using the existing network.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Figures taken from the report itself:

 

St Pan - Derby current quickest 1h31m

Euston - Toton 1h 11m, then Toton - Derby 15m. Total = 1h 26m

 

Hence time saving = 5m which'll be cancelled out by connection/waiting time at Toton.

 

"Car access to the station would be important" but I thought the idea was to use public transport more.

[Edwin_m]

The Nottingham tram would have (IIRC) 16 stops between Toton and Midland Station so although it would be useful for the western suburbs it's not an option for visitors to the centre.  I agree a good connecting rail service is essential for this to be a genuine benefit to Nottingham rather than just a means for the affluent to park there and go to London.  There also needs to be a rail connection to Derby - buses on the A52 would be slow at busy times. 

 

It would be difficult to justify an extra service simply for HS2 connecting passengers so there would have to be a lot of rearrangement of regional services to make this work.  For example Cross Country could run via Toton between Derby and Sheffield, since HS2 will provide quicker options for longer distance journeys.  The idea is also floated of a connection to Network Rail just south of Toton, and a service between Leeds and Leicester for example.  This might open up other possibilities such as a fast link between Birmingham and Nottingham Midland. 

 

From the point of view of rail connections East Midlands Parkway would be better, but this seems to have been ruled out on grounds of cost and because local development would not be permitted in green belt (though I would have thought the power station would have gone by then leaving a a brownfield site). 

 

[i am currently involved in the HS2 project but the above are my personal views only and based only on information publically available.]

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Sorry, but I misread part of the report.

 

Euston - Toton will be 51m,  then to Derby 1h 11m, so a 20m saving. But it still involves a change of train with waiting time/connection worries at a draughty Toton.

 

I'm not against some form of High Speed line, but am not convinced this is the best solution. East Midland Parkway has better road links, if that was still felt important (will we still have cars then?) and to actually pass under an airport and not serve it seems a strange decision.

[jamie92208]

I've now had time to look in detail at the parts between Wakefield and Leeds as I live a few miles from there and know the area well.   The new station in Leeds is going to be interesting.  It's built on a viaduct and is nearly on the trace of the original Middleton Railway route down to the stathes on the river, so that's a nice histroical connection.  The use of the existing railway route from near Stourton, into the city centre makes sense but will need some careful work to sort out existing goods and other railway facilities on the north side of the line.  These include Midland Road Loco depot and the stone terminal opposite the Freightliner depot.   All in all a very good piece of work in my opinion.

 

Jamie

[Clive Mortimore]

8 miles on a tram can take rather a long time, certainly in comparison to the rapid journey you have had up to that point. And also a big comedown for an executive traveller, however I expect they will use a taxi. What is needed is a proper railway shuttle service from Toton into Derby and Nottingham stations without an interminable number of stops. I work in a German city which is endowed with a transport network most British cities would die for, and I prefer to use the S-Bahn or airport shuttle to the trams any day.

 

I can see a market still remaining for EMT (or whoever is running the Midland mainline by then) to attract customers to the existing route on the basis that the city centre to city centre travel time remains about the same. And the achilles heel of HS2, so few stops is still there. If it is Bristol or Manchester (or even Birmingham?) you want to travel to from Derby, you are better off using the existing network.

Hi Chris

 

HS2 is to increase the capacity of the rail network therefore journeys like Manchester to Bristol should improve because there would be less London bound trains on parts of that section of line.

[10800]

All the talk seems to be about passenger stations and journey times.  What about freight and increases in line/route capacity?  Did I miss something?

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think you'll find there was no coalition box to tick.

 

In this country, we don't vote for Govts (as for instance they do in the US), we vote for MPs. It's a basic weakness in our system.

[Joseph_Pestell]

As an enthusiast of railways, why do these plans leave me feeling rather cold?

 

If I live in Derby (which I did once upon a time), would I really want to treck all the way to Toton before I catch a (very) High Speed Train? Will the time saving be really all that great?

 

And if I live in London (which I did once upon a time too) would I want to be deposited in the middle of nowhere (Toton) to find my way to a meeting in Derby.

 

Did you live in the middle of Derby, close to Midland station? If not, probably just as quick to get out to Toton and avoid city centre traffic. Likewise in London, for many it would be far easier to get to Heathrow (Iver) than to Euston. And many business meetings are not in city centres these days.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think Toton is a political station, perhaps also Meadowhall - the real goal was Leeds but if the train didn't stop anywhere before then there would be no way to sell the cost.

 

Look at the Manchester route - the airport and Manchester itself - that's it, but the Leeds line being longer and passing near big cities it would be political suicide to completely by pass them.

 

I don't see either of these as stations built just to pacify local objections. Both will serve large catchments and should be very successful. Don't underestimate the traffic potential between Leeds and Nottingham with a much faster service than at present. The M1 is often hideous along that stretch.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Looking at the time line of the predicted finish date. I could well be dead and not get ride on it.

 

Does anyone know if you can pre book your coffin (with contents) on a train to ensure I get at least on trip on it?

 

On many recently designed trains (including Eurostar), luggage often gets a better view out of the window than some of the passengers. So booking in as a coffin could be a smart move.

[Glorious NSE]

All the talk seems to be about passenger stations and journey times.  What about freight and increases in line/route capacity?  Did I miss something?

 

With some longer distance passenger traffic off the old routes, it increases their available capacity... 

[Glorious NSE]

I don't see either of these as stations built just to pacify local objections. Both will serve large catchments and should be very successful. Don't underestimate the traffic potential between Leeds and Nottingham with a much faster service than at present. The M1 is often hideous along that stretch.

 

And that catchment may be the key, it may well be that only by taking Nottingham and Derby together do they create a catchment big enough to justify a station call...

[Joseph_Pestell]

The plan is to build the new HS lines to the larger UIC GC gauge. The same as HS1 from St. Pancras International to the Channel Tunnel.

This wil allow double-deck trains to be used if so chosen, as well as (in theory) trains from the other side of the channel.

 

To answer your other question, yes double deckers could be run on HS1.

The CT has an even larger clearance than HS1, to allow for the large double deck Shuttle trains. Double deck passenger trains would have no problem in the tunnel.

 

As for HS2, the intention so far has been to introduce two types of train onto this new network.

A "captive" fleet, that will take full advantage of the wider and taller loading gauge, but will be restricted to the HS network;

plus a "Classic compatible" fleet, that will be able to operate on both HS2 and on suitable classic lines, off the HS network.

 

The "Classic compatible" fleet will allow trains to and from the north to make use of HS2 phase 1 (London - Birmingham) as soon as it is open; continuing the rest of their journey on the existing classic lines.

When phase 2 is open to Manchester and Leeds, with the accompanying links into the WCML and ECML; these trains will be able to use more of the HS network, before transferring onto the classic lines for the remainder of their journey.

 

The use of a dual fleet is yet to be confirmed and no decision has yet been made about the use of double deck trains in the "captive" fleet.

 

 

.

 

Not using double-deck trains would be a ridiculous waste of capacity (less 30% approx) and energy. Any traditional routes that may be used by trains from HS2 should be upgraded so that they can take double-deck (not that difficult if already cleared for W10 container traffic).

[Butler Henderson]

Toton is petfectly logical unless you are the leader of Derby City Council who wants ths station there to the annoyance of Nottingham. Its a modern replication of Trent Junction which was built, the station that is, for exactly the same purpose. The plans make it clear that a train link will be made to Nottingham and Derby, and presumably Leicester.

[frobisher]

I think you'll find there was no coalition box to tick.

To be as glib in my reply, I'd like to point out that if you ticked any box on a ballot paper in the UK you would have just ruined said ballot paper.

 

Whilst you as an individual may vote for one party or the other, the voting of the nation as a whole led us into the coalition at the last general election ergo we got the government WE voted for.

[edcayton]

The plan is to build the new HS lines to the larger UIC GC gauge. The same as HS1 from St. Pancras International to the Channel Tunnel.

This wil allow double-deck trains to be used if so chosen, as well as (in theory) trains from the other side of the channel.

 

To answer your other question, yes double deckers could be run on HS1.

The CT has an even larger clearance than HS1, to allow for the large double deck Shuttle trains. Double deck passenger trains would have no problem in the tunnel.

 

As for HS2, the intention so far has been to introduce two types of train onto this new network.

A "captive" fleet, that will take full advantage of the wider and taller loading gauge, but will be restricted to the HS network;

plus a "Classic compatible" fleet, that will be able to operate on both HS2 and on suitable classic lines, off the HS network.

 

The "Classic compatible" fleet will allow trains to and from the north to make use of HS2 phase 1 (London - Birmingham) as soon as it is open; continuing the rest of their journey on the existing classic lines.

When phase 2 is open to Manchester and Leeds, with the accompanying links into the WCML and ECML; these trains will be able to use more of the HS network, before transferring onto the classic lines for the remainder of their journey.

 

The use of a dual fleet is yet to be confirmed and no decision has yet been made about the use of double deck trains in the "captive" fleet.

 

 

.

 

 

Thank you for that. I did of course know about the Eurotunnel trains, just having a senior moment!  I take it that the "classic compatible" trains will be capable of full line speed?

 

Ed

[frobisher]

Thank you for that. I did of course know about the Eurotunnel trains, just having a senior moment!  I take it that the "classic compatible" trains will be capable of full line speed?

I don't know the answer, but the Class 395s are capable of 140mph for running on HS1 so perhaps these ones will be similar?

[Glorious NSE]

If you look at Eurostars, they were designed to do 186mph on LGV routes, then trundle through South London at 40mph to get to Waterloo (on third rail power no less!) - so there is an obvious precedent... 

 

Given that capacity is a driver, I can see the captive fleet ones being double deck.

 

I'm not convinced it's so easy for the others. Contrary to popular belief W10 is not fundamentally any taller overall, so i'm unconvinced that double deck trains running off the core are so easy.

[Armchair Modeller]

Did you live in the middle of Derby, close to Midland station? If not, probably just as quick to get out to Toton and avoid city centre traffic. Likewise in London, for many it would be far easier to get to Heathrow (Iver) than to Euston. And many business meetings are not in city centres these days.

 

Derby station is hardly in the middle of Derby anyway

 

Toton seems a very sensible decision to me - close enough to Derby, Nottingham, Mansfield, Loughborough and East Midlands Airport for anyone to consider driving. The only downside is it is north of Trent Junction, so not so easy to make links with trains coming north from Leicester towards Nottingham and Derby.

 

By the time the line is built, Nottingham and Derby will probably be one vast sprawling conurbation anyway.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Armchair Modeller

[Ron Ron Ron]

Not using double-deck trains would be a ridiculous waste of capacity (less 30% approx) and energy. Any traditional routes that may be used by trains from HS2 should be upgraded so that they can take double-deck (not that difficult if already cleared for W10 container traffic).

 

 

Given that capacity is a driver, I can see the captive fleet ones being double deck.

 

I'm not convinced it's so easy for the others. Contrary to popular belief W10 is not fundamentally any taller overall, so i'm unconvinced that double deck trains running off the core are so easy.

 

I agree that not using double deck trains in the captive fleet would be a missed opportunity and a complete waste of the larger gauge.

However Martyn is correct that the"classic lines" will not be able to take anything but a severely compromised double deck train.

 

It's not only height; there's also the platform height and clearance issues.

Captive HS2 stock (single of double deck) will not be able to clear "classic line" platforms.

The "Classic compatible" stock will be designed for HS2, but compromised to fit through "classic line" platforms, in the same way that the Eurostar Class 373 was built to run on BR tracks prior to HS1 being completed.

Such a compromise on the "classic compatible" would make double deck so restricted at platform height level, as well as in height, that it wouldn't be worth pursuing. You just couldn't get a realistic design to work as a passenger carrying train.

 

 

.

[Clay Country]

Toton seems a very sensible decision to me - close enough to Derby, Nottingham, Mansfield, Loughborough and East Midlands Airport for anyone to consider driving. The only downside is it is north of Trent Junction, so not so easy to make links with trains coming north from Leicester towards Nottingham and Derby.

 

The plans suggest the high level line linking Trent and Toton will be upgraded, with a new link for trains coming from the Derby direction. To me this seems like an opportunity to finally develop a service between Ilkeston and Derby/Nottingham, serving the high-speed station and perhaps with a new station on the high level line for Long Eaton town centre. If an extension of the tram from Toton Lane to the new station is also on the cards it would make sense to at least plan for a short extension to Long Eaton as part of the work, as this would give the town a direct connection to the new station and improve public transport links with the western fringe of Nottingham.