HS2 under review

[Joseph_Pestell]

And, for perspective, it's substantially less than we'll be spending on building submarines over a rather shorter period of time. I write that not to make a political point, but to emphasise that, although £32bn seems like a huge number, in government spending terms it is not wildly big.

 

Paul

 

One of the other criticisms of HS2 has been that it would take investment away from the traditional railway. Network Rail has just announced it's proposed spend under the various HLO schemes - £37bn (which I think will be over a shorter period).

[Clive Mortimore]

I am still surprised by the estimated time it will take to build HS2. If this build time was put to the shareholders of the London Birmingham Railway or the Great Northern Railway would they have seen it as a good investment? How much railway was built by hand in the same time it is going to take to build HS2 with today's advanced equipment?

 

Still unable to find out in the event of me dying before the project is completed if my coffin and contents can have a ride on the new railway.

[GoingUnderground]

Although this topic veers dangerously towards politics, I would be intrigued to learn how having a fast link to the North will re balalance the nation's wealth and provide more jobs.....is it just that those N of the SE will be able to get there quicker for 'all' of the massive buoyant job market there is there now.....

 

I'm not a fan of the term NIMBY as it's paraded around like some sort of medical condition, when in actual fact why should anyone's house, lifestyle or view 'take one for the team'...

I sure as heck am outraged at the destruction of my beloved Chilterns although I don't live there anymore

 

So who do you blame for the destruction of the Chilterns?

 

The Romans for building Watling Street?

The promoters and builders of the Grand Union Canal?

The London & Birmingham Railway (aka WCML)?

The Metropolitan Railway for their line from Baker Street to Verney Junction and branch to Chesham?

The Great Central Railway for their London Extension?

The builders of the M40?

The builders and developers who built homes, barns, offices, factories, pubs, hotels and every other building in the Chilterns since they were first inhabited by Man?

 

You're at least 2000 years too late if you want to keep the Chilterns in pristine condition.

 

It was these developments that allowed more people to live in and enjoy the Chilterns. I'm sorry, but for me all this talk of "the destruction of the Chilterns" is sheer rubbish ignoring over 2000 years of development, and is definitely a case of people pulling the ladder up after themselves.

[Clive Mortimore]

So who do you blame for the destruction of the Chilterns?

 

The Romans for building Watling Street?

The promoters and builders of the Grand Union Canal?

The London & Birmingham Railway (aka WCML)?

The Metropolitan Railway for their line from Baker Street to Verney Junction and branch to Chesham?

The Great Central Railway for their London Extension?

The builders of the M40?

The builders and developers who built homes, barns, offices, factories, pubs, hotels and every other building in the Chilterns since they were first inhabited by Man?

 

You're at least 2000 years too late if you want to keep the Chilterns in pristine condition.

 

It was these developments that allowed more people to live in and enjoy the Chilterns. I'm sorry, but for me all this talk of "the destruction of the Chilterns" is sheer rubbish ignoring over 2000 years of development, and is definitely a case of people pulling the ladder up after themselves.

Add to the list

The GWR route to Oxford

The M1

The Midland Railway London extension

 

The Chilterns are not only in Buckinghamshire but run from Salisbury Plain eastwards.

[10800]

I don't doubt that the proposed route and design for the Manchester and Leeds extensions of HS2 will see some changes and additional mitigations to address significant concerns.  This has already happened with the London-Birmingham section with for example more 'green tunnels' (i.e. cut and cover) to reduce visual impact and noise in the Chilterns.  This is real life.

 

And I bet that despite all the objections from Chiltern residents, once the project is given the green light, a new station will suddenly appear in the plans to enable them to use HS2.  Imagine the fuss if they had the railway but no access to it!

[edcayton]

. Far less damage would be caused if we settled for a lower speed (186mph/300kph) which would have remarkably little impact on journey times.

 

I think that on balance I am agin HS2, but If it is to be done, t'were best that t'were done well (or something like that); ie not only to the best and most recent standards but with "future-proofing" built in AFAP.

 

Ed

[GoingUnderground]

......And I bet that despite all the objections from Chiltern residents, once the project is given the green light, a new station will suddenly appear in the plans to enable them to use HS2.....

The "Ebbsfleet" of HS2. Males perfect sense to me.

[Ron Ron Ron]

The "Ebbsfleet" of HS2. Males perfect sense to me.

 

What, another little used White Elephant ?

[Ron Ron Ron]

........With add-on electrification to Bristol, there could be a step change improvement to Cross Country and MML services even continuing to use existing rolling stock over the new route for the time being.

 

Existing rolling stock won't be using any part of HS2.

It's a completely separate railway system, where the connections to the "classic network" are only provided to allow the "classic compatible" trains to access the classic routes to destinations "beyond HS2".

The only non-HS2 stock will be for maintenance and infrastructure activities.

There has been some speculation that modified Pendolino's could temporarily use the route in the early days (phase 1), but this isn't covered in any documents I'm aware of.

 

In terms of being a separate network, HS2 may not even come under the auspices of Network Rail and may be put into the hands of a private operator, as is the case with HS1.

 

 

.

[GoingUnderground]

What, another little used White Elephant ?

OK then let's call it the "Ashford" of HS2.

[Joseph_Pestell]

And I bet that despite all the objections from Chiltern residents, once the project is given the green light, a new station will suddenly appear in the plans to enable them to use HS2.  Imagine the fuss if they had the railway but no access to it!

 

We are already getting the "fuss". The expedient political way of dealing with this would be to promise the Chilterns Station now....and then cancel it later - the opposite of what you are suggesting.

 

I have suggested throughout that there should be a station at Calvert, with interchange to the Oxford-Milton Keynes line and a link up from Amersham/High Wycombe via Aylesbury. Good catchment and potential for regeneration of sites at Calvert (which would pay for the station build).

 

What stops this station being built is the disruption to non-stopping trains at 400kph. If 300kph is enough in Spain, a far larger country, it's enough here. As France has proved, in killing off internal air services except to Nice and Toulouse, what counts is whether you get there quicker than on the plane. If so, that's fast enough.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Existing rolling stock won't be using any part of HS2.

 

 

 

.

 

I remember them saying something similar about the Channel Tunnel. And the first passenger train to Frethun was? A Thameslink 319!

[10800]

The "Ebbsfleet" of HS2. Males perfect sense to me.

 

 

What, another little used White Elephant ?

 

Today's white elephant = tomorrow's future proofing?

[Ron Ron Ron]

I remember them saying something similar about the Channel Tunnel. And the first passenger train to Frethun was? A Thameslink 319!

 

Hardly relevant and that wasn't on HS1 either, only the CT.

[The Great Bear]

Not only that. There is the multiplier effect to take into account. The money doesn't just disappear - it goes round and round and round again. The Government get much of it back in taxes (assuming they don't get Amazon, Google etc. to build it). This then gets spent again........ and so on.

That is already happening to a small extent for some...

[Clay Country]

What stops this station being built is the disruption to non-stopping trains at 400kph. If 300kph is enough in Spain, a far larger country, it's enough here. As France has proved, in killing off internal air services except to Nice and Toulouse, what counts is whether you get there quicker than on the plane. If so, that's fast enough.

 

There seems to be some confusion between commercial speed and design speed. HS2 will be designed for 400km/h, as it may be commercially viable at some point in the future to operate at such speeds so it makes sense to future-proof the infrastructure. Trains will operate at whatever speed is deemed to be commercially viable in 2026, be it 300km/h, 350km/h, or whatever. As for Spain, Madrid - Barceolna services operate at up to 350km/h, although they only tend to reach such speeds to recover time when running late. 

[eastwestdivide]

On Ebbsfleet:

Today's white elephant = tomorrow's future proofing?

 

There were plenty of cars in the extensive car parks there when I visited late 2012. The staff said the commuter traffic is building up slowly. I expect it's hard to get commuters to change the habits of a lifetime. Probably plenty more domestic traffic once the proposed office and housing developments go ahead (delayed by the recession).

Couldn't say what the usage is for Eurostar, although I am booked to travel Eurostar from Ebbsfleet twice later this year. It seemed pretty quiet mid-morning when I caught it there last May, maybe 20-30 joining a Brussels train, but more in the lounge, presumably for Paris.

[phil-b259]

 

 

In terms of being a separate network, HS2 may not even come under the auspices of Network Rail and may be put into the hands of a private operator, as is the case with HS1.

 

 

.

This is the most likely scenario, especially if the conservatives are in charge when building finally gets underway. Of course there is nothing to stop any new owner contracting the maintenance and operation of the link to NR if they want - After all the likes of Pension funds (the owner of HS1 I believe) are not exactly set up for managing railways on a day to day basis. Though again if the conservatives are in charge they are likely to faviour someone else - in the name of competition you understand.

[phil-b259]

On Ebbsfleet:

 

There were plenty of cars in the extensive car parks there when I visited late 2012. The staff said the commuter traffic is building up slowly. I expect it's hard to get commuters to change the habits of a lifetime. Probably plenty more domestic traffic once the proposed office and housing developments go ahead (delayed by the recession).

It was pointed out that if you work in the City, London Bridge or Cannon Street are a lot more convenient than St Pancras. Canary Wharf is about even in accessibility terms (i.e. change at Stratford versus change at London Bridge) though HS1 services will get you there sooner.

 

On Ebbsfleet:

 

Couldn't say what the usage is for Eurostar, although I am booked to travel Eurostar from Ebbsfleet twice later this year. It seemed pretty quiet mid-morning when I caught it there last May, maybe 20-30 joining a Brussels train, but more in the lounge, presumably for Paris.

I think that one of the original hopes was that those for whom Waterloo was convenient would transfer to Ebsfleet when services moved to St Pancras. Of course because Ebsfleet is further round the M25 than Heathrow which, thanks to the presence of transfer passengers still has regular flights to Paris some users have gone back to flying.

Edited January 31, 2013 by phil-b259

[Ron Ron Ron]

This is the most likely scenario, especially if the conservatives are in charge when building finally gets underway. 

 

Don't forget, Labour were in charge when they handed over HS1 to the Canadian pension funds.

HS2 will be a much bigger 'liability" and any government, of whatever colour, will want to get as much of it off the books ASAP.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

With all the planned changes for Toton, perhaps this is how many of us will remember it.

[The Great Bear]

There seems to be some confusion between commercial speed and design speed. HS2 will be designed for 400km/h, as it may be commercially viable at some point in the future to operate at such speeds so it makes sense to future-proof the infrastructure. Trains will operate at whatever speed is deemed to be commercially viable in 2026, be it 300km/h, 350km/h, or whatever. As for Spain, Madrid - Barceolna services operate at up to 350km/h, although they only tend to reach such speeds to recover time when running late. 

360kph is max speed at opening from what I have read, alignment and structures provide for 400kph where possible.

[Christopher125]

And, for perspective, it's substantially less than we'll be spending on building submarines over a rather shorter period of time. I write that not to make a political point, but to emphasise that, although £32bn seems like a huge number, in government spending terms it is not wildly big.

 

True - indeed the cost per year is broadly the same as that currently spent on Crossrail, with construction of HS2 beginning as that project winds down.

 

One of the TV/press reports quoted a Leeds politician as saying that they should start building from there. This was derided but I think the guy has a point. The route is far less contentious than through the Chilterns and there will be a lot of economic regeneration created around the new stations at Toton and Meadowhall as well as in Leeds. In economic terms, it pretty much pays for itself. With add-on electrification to Bristol, there could be a step change improvement to Cross Country and MML services even continuing to use existing rolling stock over the new route for the time being.

 

That might sound an attractive option but there are several pretty fundamental issues:

 

- The first phase is years ahead of the second in the design/planning/consultation process which would delay the opening of any phase and the project as a whole.

 

- While it's true the second phase has a stronger BCR, that's in the context of both phases being operational with 400m captive sets on the busiest intercity flows to and from London. A Birmingham-Manchester/Leeds line on its own would be limited to using shorter classic compatible sets on such services.

 

- Capacity. There isn't room for those extra services anyway. The capacity crisis facing the southern WCML (Network Rail predict it to be 'effectively full' by the mid 2020's) is arguably the strongest argument for building the new line, so there just isn't room for more services from Manchester, Leeds etc which would leave the northern legs of HS2 massively underutilised.   

 

What stops this station being built is the disruption to non-stopping trains at 400kph. If 300kph is enough in Spain, a far larger country, it's enough here. As France has proved, in killing off internal air services except to Nice and Toulouse, what counts is whether you get there quicker than on the plane. If so, that's fast enough.

 

What stops the station being built is the reduction in capacity caused by a stopping service. An extra classic-compatible service to the North West for example will deliver far greater benefits than a stop at Aylebury or Calvert, which will mainly be used for short distance commuting with little overall journey time benefit from already relatively affluent areas. Reducing the top speed from 360kph (which is what everything is modelled on) to 300kph still results in a loss of capacity while also reducing the overall benefits of HS2 by extending journey times.

 

Chris

Edited February 1, 2013 by Christopher125

[roythebus]

Ebbsfleet may well come into its own in a few years if Disneyland Gravesend is built. I used Ebbsfleet a couple of years ago when intending to go to Ally Pally, but the £12 car park fee made me think that with the price of the train fare, it was cheaper to stay in my Range Rover and drive to the show.

 

With the withdrawal of a lot if international services from Ashford, business there for things like local taxis has dropped. 

 

Anyway, back to the OP, it's nice to see railways in the headlines again. Question Time tonight on BBC1 and the discussion show after with the Chesham set as the background for more railway discussions. As someone pointed out on there, look how quick it took to build the Olympic villages. why should it take so many decades longer to build a railway? It wouldn't take that long in France or Germany.  

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

why should it take so many decades longer to build a railway? It wouldn't take that long in France or Germany.  

 

I don't think it will take decades to construct the railway, it'll take decades to wind through the arguing, planning, financing and everything except actually build it.

 

Comparisons with France and Spain don't hold up, as they are vastly less densely populated and built up as the uk, so planning and construction are probably less convoluted.  Spain also pocketed vast sums of EU cash to build many of its routes (and motorways and airports) so again,that would speed up the apparent construction time.

 

As for the Olympic village, there's nothing time consuming about throwing up boxes to stick people in or fancy boxes to watch people run around in on a largely brownfield site.

 

Probably better to make comparisons extrapolated from the HS1 extension to St Pancras if anything.