HS2 under review

[jjb1970]

Brussels is a Jeckyl & Hyde city. Some parts are lovely, the grand square near Brussels Central station is rather splendid and there are some terrific eateries but the area around Gare du Midi is quite ghastly and I find the area around the European institutions a bit grim. Brussels really isn't my favourite place, however I love Antwerp which is a great city.

[jjb1970]

Talking of Eurostar services, am I the only one less than impressed with the new Velaro trains? I've made a couple of trips in them recently and I prefer the original Class 373 trains.

[Mike Storey]

Brussels is a Jeckyl & Hyde city. Some parts are lovely, the grand square near Brussels Central station is rather splendid and there are some terrific eateries but the area around Gare du Midi is quite ghastly and I find the area around the European institutions a bit grim. Brussels really isn't my favourite place, however I love Antwerp which is a great city.

 

I am sorry, but I have run that past Mrs S, and she is still not convinced. Do they at least take MasterCard now???

 

Perhaps Bruxelles Midi and its surrounds, explains Brexit? Whoops, no, cut that out.

[Mike Storey]

Talking of Eurostar services, am I the only one less than impressed with the new Velaro trains? I've made a couple of trips in them recently and I prefer the original Class 373 trains.

 

Depends what state. 373's were getting pretty tatty in the last several years, and in the class not quite the lowest, but not one of the highest, I remember the suspension could be a bit rough entering and exiting the tunnel. I have not been on the German response. What do you find is worse? In allegiance to the thread in which we are actually mentioning this, what are the lessons to be learnt for HS2? Discuss.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Mike Storey

[jjb1970]

One of the things that puts me off Brussels is the near constant military presence, soldiers in combat gear and armed with assault rifles milling around scratching their backsides clockwatching until they can clear off home. Call me a sceptic, but it's hard to see what half of the Belgian army moping around talking, smoking and eyeing up passing crumpet is doing much for safety.

[Mike Storey]

One of the things that puts me off Brussels is the near constant military presence, soldiers in combat gear and armed with assault rifles milling around scratching their backsides clockwatching until they can clear off home. Call me a sceptic, but it's hard to see what half of the Belgian army moping around talking, smoking and eyeing up passing crumpet is doing much for safety.

 

Tradition, dear boy, tradition.

[jjb1970]

Depends what state. 373's were getting pretty tatty in the last several years, and in the class not quite the lowest, but not one of the highest, I remember the suspension could be a bit rough entering and exiting the tunnel. I have not been on the German response. What do you find is worse? In allegiance to the thread in which we are actually mentioning this, what are the lessons to be learnt for HS2? Discuss.

I don't find the ride any better than the Class 373, space isn't great and I don't like the seat design. I've found they can have some rather odd, almost boat like, rolling motion. The main thing I don't like however is the interior ambience, it all feels a bit sterile and cold.

[jjb1970]

Depends what state. 373's were getting pretty tatty in the last several years, and in the class not quite the lowest, but not one of the highest, I remember the suspension could be a bit rough entering and exiting the tunnel. I have not been on the German response. What do you find is worse? In allegiance to the thread in which we are actually mentioning this, what are the lessons to be learnt for HS2? Discuss.

Some of the Class 373's were in a dreadful state, torn and frayed seat upholstery, power sockets that looked hazardous and a general sense of having seen better days yet for all that I still like the original trains. Last week I took a ride out to Brussels on a Velaro and came home in an unrefurbished 373 and despite the 373 being more than a bit shabby I preferred it. The refurbished 373s are somewhere between the original 373 and the Velaro trains in my affection.

[Mike Storey]

Some of the Class 373's were in a dreadful state, torn and frayed seat upholstery, power sockets that looked hazardous and a general sense of having seen better days yet for all that I still like the original trains. Last week I took a ride out to Brussels on a Velaro and came home in an unrefurbished 373 and despite the 373 being more than a bit shabby I preferred it. The refurbished 373s are somewhere between the original 373 and the Velaro trains in my affection.

 

I kind of know what you mean. The more modern Alstom TGV's running here do feel more sanitised and harder on the back (rather than the backside) than the originals, on domestic services, especially the double-deckers. On the other hand, the domestic, Hitachi, high speed services from Kent to St Pancras, are pretty comfortable and feel more welcoming. HS2 will need to ensure they attend to this, or maybe the "franchise" holder, if it is they that will specify the interiors, when trying to attract the extra business they will need. Speed alone will not be enough over time, albeit price plays a big part too (ask Ryanair or EasyJet) so a compromise between luxury and affordability will be needed. I would hope they will know this, rather than simply accommodating whatever ergo-standards, fire-standards, easy clean solution appears cheapest to stay within budget, that seems to have dominated recently.

[runs as required]

Tradition, dear boy, tradition.

This was always explained to me as the means by which countries (who had state run railways from the first for military reasons) could thereafter save on barracks for their soldiers.

In this way the military always appeared ready for action to the travelling public!

With our diminished military expenditure, perhaps we might take a leaf out of this book in fitting out HS2.

dh

[pete_mcfarlane]

The Belgian Army did manage to shoot a suicide bomber at a railway station recently, after his home made bomb failed to go off. But that's nothing that an armed Policeman couldn't have done.

I'm never that impressed with European security forces. To my British eyes they always seem more interested in hanging around in big groups looking tough than actually patrolling and providing security.

Edited November 3, 2017 by pete_mcfarlane

[runs as required]

When I posted about saving money on military barrack building, I couldn’t recall where I'd first heard this taunt .

 

I remember now -  it was collaborating with Dutch Railways (NS) way back in the 1960s when working for BR(E) CCE’s. They joked how they had no railway journeys long enough for their military to get a good night’s sleep on the cushions like other European countries.

 

And again, many years later, regularly standing with an Italian colleague while commuting early morning and night between Chiusi and Rome or Florence, he’d grumble about  the Government dispatching soldiers each night alternately up and down Italy simply so they could kip on trains!

dh

[phil-b259]

I kind of know what you mean. The more modern Alstom TGV's running here do feel more sanitised and harder on the back (rather than the backside) than the originals, on domestic services, especially the double-deckers. On the other hand, the domestic, Hitachi, high speed services from Kent to St Pancras, are pretty comfortable and feel more welcoming. HS2 will need to ensure they attend to this, or maybe the "franchise" holder, if it is they that will specify the interiors, when trying to attract the extra business they will need. Speed alone will not be enough over time, albeit price plays a big part too (ask Ryanair or EasyJet) so a compromise between luxury and affordability will be needed. I would hope they will know this, rather than simply accommodating whatever ergo-standards, fire-standards, easy clean solution appears cheapest to stay within budget, that seems to have dominated recently.

 

Well it would be a start if the mandarins in the DfT kept well away (given the IEP experience)

 

However as HS2 is very 'political' (and very necessary from a purely practical point of view) I can see certain persons in the DFT might quite like sticking their oar in.

[jjb1970]

Well it would be a start if the mandarins in the DfT kept well away (given the IEP experience)

 

However as HS2 is very 'political' (and very necessary from a purely practical point of view) I can see certain persons in the DFT might quite like sticking their oar in.

You are right of course, however DafT are now so firmly ensconced in their position of micro-managing and making important decisions on behalf of the industry that I can't see them surrendering that power. Especially when if seems that DafT mandarins genuinely believe that they know better than the industry and that the companies they dictate to are basically shysters out to scam the government.

[Vanders]

Brussels really isn't my favourite place, however I love Antwerp which is a great city.

Brussels is a dump. Ghent & Antwerp are both lovely, though.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I like all the Belgian cities. There are some great bars near Midi station and lots of trams of course. What's not to like?

[locoholic]

Question by Dennis Skinner on PMQs today, comparing the proportion of HS2 that is in tunnels in the Home Counties to the situation north of the Trent. He implied that tons of money is being spent to shield well-heeled southerners from the effects of HS2, whilst amendments to the plan further north mean there is less tunneling planned now than was originally the case. Is this true, I wonder?

[The Stationmaster]

One of the things that puts me off Brussels is the near constant military presence, soldiers in combat gear and armed with assault rifles milling around scratching their backsides clockwatching until they can clear off home. Call me a sceptic, but it's hard to see what half of the Belgian army moping around talking, smoking and eyeing up passing crumpet is doing much for safety.

 

Makes a  change from the involvement of troops in Paris when there is a vigipirate on and a pair of soldiers go round accompanying a policeman.  Then the best thing to do if you see them approaching from one direction and someone of arabian appearance approaching from another is to get clear before the rifle butts get to work.  Quite shocking the first time you see it happen but the Parisiens (and pariseenes) don't seem to bat an eyelid and pass by on the other side out of swinging rifle butt range.

 

I've not sample a 374 yet but my son has and is not impressed by the ride.  The 373s were getting tatty a decade ago so really do need replacement but I don't necessarily think the Velaro is the best option.

 

As for the area around Midi the critical factor is to avoid exiting the station on the 'wrong' side - 20 odd years ago that area wasn't too bad but it was starting to slip and everyone tells me it has got very nasty - not a place to frequent after dark.  The other side is, and always has been, far better.

[phil-b259]

 

 

As for the area around Midi the critical factor is to avoid exiting the station on the 'wrong' side - 20 odd years ago that area wasn't too bad but it was starting to slip and everyone tells me it has got very nasty - not a place to frequent after dark.  The other side is, and always has been, far better.

 

For the purposes of being helpful to forum members who may be travelling that way, which is the side to avoid Mike?

[The Stationmaster]

For the purposes of being helpful to forum members who may be travelling that way, which is the side to avoid Mike?

 

The side where the Eurostar platforms are.  OK southwards in daytime as its the route to the SNCB HQ but the open area that side northwards aren't too safe so I understand.  Mind you coming out either side and going north up to the dual carriageway and then turning right and going along the dual carriageway for a few hundred metres before turning left will land you in an area which should very definitely be avoided as it is a sort of 'colonial' area with some pretty tough characters around (but it used to have a very good flea market). 

[Foulounoux]

Brussels is a dump. Ghent & Antwerp are both lovely, though.

Agreed and some superb restaurant in Ghent. Pakhuis being a favourite

Also Aalst which has a cracking carnival. The nearest thing to medieval debauchery I have witnessed

In terms of Markets Aalst Saturday market out does Brussels Christmas market easily

[Dava]

Question by Dennis Skinner on PMQs today, comparing the proportion of HS2 that is in tunnels in the Home Counties to the situation north of the Trent. He implied that tons of money is being spent to shield well-heeled southerners from the effects of HS2, whilst amendments to the plan further north mean there is less tunneling planned now than was originally the case. Is this true, I wonder?

Dennis Skinner can be relied upon for balanced & well-informed commentary with a touch of humour, but as a former miner, does he have a vested interest in digging tunnels?

 

There are a lot more hills, valleys and gradients on the Birmingham-Leeds & branches section than HS2 London-Brum. Some of the viaducts, such as across the Trent Valley and Long Eaton, will have a massive impact and could have been built at lower level, but tunnelling was not an option.

 

Dava

[Dava]

As the shortlist for building the HS2 trains has been announced, who should build them: French, Canadian, Spanish, German, Japanese?

 

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/train-builders-shortlist-hs2-contract/

 

As a minimum they should be assembled in the UK with a threshold for the value of UK sourced design, manufacturing inputs and lifetime support? Or maybe, don't be 'DaFT'?

 

Dava

[Edwin_m]

Dennis Skinner can be relied upon for balanced & well-informed commentary with a touch of humour, but as a former miner, does he have a vested interest in digging tunnels?

 

There are a lot more hills, valleys and gradients on the Birmingham-Leeds & branches section than HS2 London-Brum. Some of the viaducts, such as across the Trent Valley and Long Eaton, will have a massive impact and could have been built at lower level, but tunnelling was not an option.

 

Dava

The deletion of the section via Meadowhall takes HS2 out of the hilly area around Barnsley and onto flatter ground further east, so has probably reduced the amount of tunneling on that section.  As far as I am aware those deleted tunnels were made necessary by the topography rather than the need to minimise impact on housing or the environment.  Similarly the line now goes round East Midlands Airport rather than tunneling beneath it, but that tunnel was either due to topography or because of the presence of the airport itself so can't really be ascribed to housing or environmental impacts. 

 

The tunnels under London and much of the tunneling in the Chilterns would not be necessary if no account was taken of how many properties and sensitive environments would otherwise be demolished or blighted, but exactly the same applies to the tunnel under south Manchester.  So if only tunneling for housing/environment reasons is taken into account, I don't think the proportions have changed much. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Edwin_m

[pete_mcfarlane]

This sounds very much like Dennis Skinner being Dennis Skinner.