HS2 under review

[rockershovel]

The point I was making about Schiphol and Rotterdam, is that Schiphol is pretty much central anyway, the geography of the Netherlands being what it is. Try flying to Berlin, another major capital with no direct main rail connection to its airport, but much better secondary connections.

 

The whole LHR situation arises from the fact that there is no logical connection between flying to London, flying to the regions and travelling by train. If I was travelling to Manchester and had the option of a connecting flight, with baggage checked straight through, or checking out and catching a train, there's no competition.

 

That was the original point of the proposed airport at Saltmarsh-in-the-Medway or whatever the place was called. It was always obvious that the rail link from the Channel Tunnel would go through Kent and Essex, and if you wanted a main rail connection to the international airport, then "Mohammed would have to go to the mountain"

 

The puzzle now, about HS2 et seq, is what is its function? HS2 is a consequence of the European plan, dating from the earliest days of the EU and in some respects, to the European land empires of the pre-1914 era, for a network of unified railways. Such empires, and the federal supersedes they turn into, always have high population movements. 5% of Americans move State annually, mostly for work. The Soviet Union moved populations around constantly. All roads lead to Rome.

[phil-b259]

Try flying to Berlin, another major capital with no direct main rail connection to its airport, but much better secondary connections.

 

 

I have done, and in fact found the rail connections to be pretty good. The secret is NOT to fly in to Tegel (The airport that was located inside and which served West Berlin during the cold war) and use Schönefeld (the airport located in East Germany and which served East Berlin) instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Sch%C3%B6nefeld_Flughafen_station

 

After German reunification Schönefeld airport was picked to be expanded and Tegel closed, but things didn't go quite to plan. The new airport terminal complex has still yet to open (it was supposed to be welcoming passengers back in 2012) and the old Schönefeld is still in business. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport#Plans_for_a_new_Berlin_Airport

Edited July 24, 2017 by phil-b259

[Andy Hayter]

The whole LHR situation arises from the fact that there is no logical connection between flying to London, flying to the regions and travelling by train. If I was travelling to Manchester and had the option of a connecting flight, with baggage checked straight through, or checking out and catching a train, there's no competition.

 

 

 

I really have to agree and the same applies at our local airport - Lyon St Exupery.  As part of its publicity it proudly announces the TGV station within the airport complex with fast connections to places such as Paris, Marseille, Nice and Milan.  My immediate thought on reading that was, hang on I have just flown in and there are onward flights to all of these cities.  Why would I want to now take a train? 

 

The reality is that what is missing are the more local services to the bigger towns and cities within a 100km radius.

[melmerby]

Birmingham international doesn't count as a main airport then?

Birmingham lost any chance of being a major international airport when, through Government policies of the time, it was considerd to be within the catchment area of Heathrow when that, along with the two Airlines BOAC and BEA, were publicly owned.

At a time of rapid air travel expansion airlines were "encouraged" to use Heathrow to ensure it's increasing prosperity.

Manchester which (AFAIK) like Birmingham was owned by the Council, wasn't restricted as it was considered to be too far from Heathrow to have any effect.

The difference today is noticeable, although Birmingham is currently one of the fastest expanding with 91% of it's business in scheduled flights.

 

Keith

Edited July 25, 2017 by melmerby

[rockershovel]

I have done, and in fact found the rail connections to be pretty good. The secret is NOT to fly in to Tegel (The airport that was located inside and which served West Berlin during the cold war) and use Schönefeld (the airport located in East Germany and which served East Berlin) instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Schönefeld_Flughafen_station

 

After German reunification Schönefeld airport was picked to be expanded and Tegel closed, but things didn't go quite to plan. The new airport terminal complex has still yet to open (it was supposed to be welcoming passengers back in 2012) and the old Schönefeld is still in business. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport#Plans_for_a_new_Berlin_Airport

That was my point, really. I flew into both at various times and as you say, as long as you avoid Tegel you will be on your way very quickly.

[jamie92208]

Just a question for any readers. At the Blue party conference in Manchester Grayling announced £300million extra for HS2 This was supposed to ensure connectivity for the 'great Northern Cities'. No specific details were mentioned but I believe that Leicester, Manchester and Leeds got mentioned at some point. I believe he wanted to include new spurs etc in the HS2 phase 2 bill that is currently before parliament. The only spur that I can think of would be a west to south one near Trent Junction so that HS2 trains can get to Leicester. Does anyone else have any idea what this is all about.

 

Jamie

[pete_mcfarlane]

It would be interesting to see what connectivity they could offer from Leicester to the North. At the moment anywhere other than Sheffield needs a change, which doesn't compare well with the rest of the East Midlands.  

[Edwin_m]

A suitable train would be able to run from Leicester to Sheffield then join HS2 further north to continue to Leeds or York.  I'm pretty sure that connection was included in the previous HS2 announcement. 

 

Providing a connection for it to join HS2 somewhere around Toton wouldn't really be worth the bother unless it was to miss out Sheffield.  It also assumes that the train in question is HS2-compatible, which would almost certainly means straight electric with electrification from Leicester to Toton.  As cancelled by Grayling a few months ago. 

Edited October 14, 2017 by Edwin_m

[Sheffield]

I have learnt to take these "announcements" with a pince of salt. They sound good, but often seem to be either announcements of somethimg that has already been announced, or just something that gets subsequently lost and forgotten. It seems to me to be more a case of politicans wanting to sound good than anything actually worth while.

Electrification Paddington to Swansea, the Midland Mainline, and across the Pennines east to west. Yes right.

[Mike Storey]

More info here  http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/Page-162/hammond-announces-300m-for-improved-northern-hs2-connections

 

It is actually £400m, to be announced by Hammond in the Autumn budget, of which £300m is devoted to unspecified connectivity of HS2 and the rest for goodness-knows-what extra on the Northern east-west link. Apparently the Northern Powerhouse mob are in rapture over it, but I am little the wiser.

 

A massive, unprecedented £5m has been added to improved Trans-Pennine signalling. Wow.

 

I guess the successful politician is the one who can spout this guff, having just cancelled two (or possibly three) major electrification schemes for the north, and still sleep soundly at night. Mind you, Mr Grayling does not look terribly awake at the best of times.

[jamie92208]

Thanks Mike, I suspected that it might all be smoke and mirrors but as usual we have to wait and see. The less said about politicians the better.

 

Jamie

[JeffP]

One wonders if the announcements of extra cash are anything like the promised trains from northern cities direct to Paris and Brussels? Or the sleeper services?

 

I reckon both were sops to Northern voters to get the service off the ground, cancelled before ever running.

[jim.snowdon]

One wonders if the announcements of extra cash are anything like the promised trains from northern cities direct to Paris and Brussels? Or the sleeper services?

 

I reckon both were sops to Northern voters to get the service off the ground, cancelled before ever running.

Remembering that the economics of any through services to Europe from other than London were demolished by the UK immigration services insisting that they could not be used for internal journeys. Now we have the situation where not only is HS2 not connected to HS1, but the UK is doing its best to isolate itself from Europe anyway.

 

Jim

[Mike Storey]

Remembering that the economics of any through services to Europe from other than London were demolished by the UK immigration services insisting that they could not be used for internal journeys. Now we have the situation where not only is HS2 not connected to HS1, but the UK is doing its best to isolate itself from Europe anyway.

 

Jim

 

Sorry to veer O/T again, but: True at the time. However, the future Eurostar Amsterdam service appears to have found a way to over come this, by using two Siemens sets as a pair, with one set locked off to London-bound passengers only, and then the other set used for London-bound passengers from Brussels, once the "internal" passengers had disembarked. I wonder if, once the 373's disappear altogether, this could be a pattern for those services calling at Lille?

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....the future Eurostar Amsterdam service appears to have found a way to over come this, by using two Siemens sets as a pair, with one set locked off to London-bound passengers only, and then the other set used for London-bound passengers from Brussels, once the "internal" passengers had disembarked......

Are you sure about that Mike?

The Class 374 Velaro sets are 400 metres long (16 vehicles).

 

800 metres and 32 vehicles long?

 

 

.

[Mike Storey]

Are you sure about that Mike?

The Class 374 Velaro sets are 400 metres long (16 vehicles).

 

800 metres and 32 vehicles long?

 

 

.

 

It was an article I read in Modern Railways, July edition I think. I will have another butchers. Maybe it was each half of the same set? My memory is not what it.....what was the question again?

[jjb1970]

However they do it, I'm looking forward to direct train services through to Rotterdam and Amsterdam and avoiding changing to the Thalys service at Brussels.

[phil-b259]

However they do it, I'm looking forward to direct train services through to Rotterdam and Amsterdam and avoiding changing to the Thalys service at Brussels.

 

And instead be turfed off the train at Liile (compete with all baggage) so you can be 'processed' by UK immigration and the train swept to ensure no 'illegals' the right wing press are so scared of get through.

Edited October 24, 2017 by phil-b259

[Mike Storey]

Are you sure about that Mike?

The Class 374 Velaro sets are 400 metres long (16 vehicles).

 

800 metres and 32 vehicles long?

 

 

.

 

You were right of course Ron. I finally found the article by Keith Fender, and it is each half of the train that will be locked off. I had remembered that two train sets will be allocated to this service, not to each train!

[Mike Storey]

And instead be turfed off the train at Liile (compete with all baggage) so you can be 'processed' by UK immigration and the rain swept to ensure no 'illegals' the right wing press are so scared of get through.

 

Not the plan at all Phil, if it comes off (and the construction of the temporary buildings needed for customs and border controls at A'dam, already in hand apparently, suggests that it will). Once sealed in your half of the train, you stay there until through the tunnel.

[phil-b259]

Not the plan at all Phil, if it comes off (and the construction of the temporary buildings needed for customs and border controls at A'dam, already in hand apparently, suggests that it will). Once sealed in your half of the train, you stay there until through the tunnel.

 

Welcome news - but I thought the Home Office (or whoever is in charge of border security these days) were adamant that they wouldn't be opening any further non UK processing facilities due to the cost.

Edited October 24, 2017 by phil-b259

[Dava]

Not the plan at all Phil, if it comes off (and the construction of the temporary buildings needed for customs and border controls at A'dam, already in hand apparently, suggests that it will). Once sealed in your half of the train, you stay there until through the tunnel.

Direct trains to Amsterdam have to be better news than changing trains at the thief-ridden dens Bruxelles Sud [and indeed Paris Gare du Nord] have become, where you have to run the gamut of the waifs & strays of Europe/North Africa.

 

Dava

[Mike Storey]

Welcome news - but I thought the Home Office (or whoever is in charge of border security these days) were adamant that they wouldn't be opening any further non UK processing facilities due to the cost.

 

So did I! But apparently things have changed, and as well as introducing e-passport gates at Gare du Nord in Paris, the Home office are about to also install them at Bruxelles Midi, by the end of this year. This suggests the Amsterdam idea is perfectly feasible, and that the horrors of Lille may be about to be consigned to the dustbin of history....... https://www.gov.uk/government/news/first-uk-epassport-gates-opened-in-paris

[jjb1970]

Gare du Midi already has E-passport gates, I find it interesting how many people still seem to prefer the manned desks.

 

PS. yes, Gare du Midi and the area around it is a dive, not the nicest station or area.

[Mike Storey]

Direct trains to Amsterdam have to be better news than changing trains at the thief-ridden dens Bruxelles Sud [and indeed Paris Gare du Nord] have become, where you have to run the gamut of the waifs & strays of Europe/North Africa.

 

Dava

 

Funny. I had to wait, in the public areas, for about 90 minutes at Paris Gare du Nord, last month, and not one person of the lower classes, of any hue, approached me for any material benefit. Perhaps I do not look sufficiently well endowed.

 

I do remember, however, having a similar experience to the one you appear to have had, in the bowels of New York Grand Central and the MTA close by, several decades ago, many times when I worked in NY, and it was not just a dime they wanted their "buddy" to spare. Ditto Toronto, when I went there on business.

 

Nonetheless, I can well imagine this scenario pertains in Bruxelles, as the current Mrs Storey hates Belgium and refuses to go there ever again, because they deigned to decline our Access card on a day trip to Ostend in 1982.