5707

[The Johnster]

This is a project to modify a Bachmann 57xx to represent a loco without a top feed fitted boiler for my Cwmdimbath layout ; 5707 has been selected as the oldest 57xx at Tondu in 1948, and hence least likely to have a top feed, but I do not actually know what sort of boiler she actually had at that time.  The story so far can be had on the Cwmdimbath ‘South Wales Valleys in the 50’s’ topic on layout topics, but is probably more suitable here. 

 

The work involves removing the top feed itself and the feed pipes, which run either side across the tops of the tanks before turning to go vertically down the sides just in front of the cab. They then disappear beneath the tanks to inveigle themselves amongst all the plumbing on the sides of the firebox. 

 

I wish Baccy would make a 57xx or an 8750 without a top feed, as the feed and pipes would be much easier to retrofit than they are going tobe to remove!

Edited September 9, 2019 by The Johnster

[timbowilts]

Johnster, do you have the RCTS Locos of the GWR partwork? That should answer your question.

If you don’t I will dig my copy out of the box it’s packed in and see what it says.

Tim T

All packed ready to move to Felinfoel

[tomparryharry]

I hope you get some photos of the process mate. I'm interested also.

 

Happy modelling,

Ian.

[Steamport Southport]

Definitely had one by 1959. Probably much earlier as it has a early crest and is on the Swindon "dump" for scrapping. Assuming that the boiler is at the end of it's certificate and not deemed worth overhauling.

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/steam-gwr/5700-class-0-6-0pt/hC79F10EF#hc79f10ef

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

18 hours ago, timbowilts said:

Johnster, do you have the RCTS Locos of the GWR partwork? That should answer your question.

If you don’t I will dig my copy out of the box it’s packed in and see what it says.

Tim T

All packed ready to move to Felinfoel

Thanks for that, Tim, I'd be grateful.  I'm taking a bit of a punt on the loco having no top feed in 1948, and Jason has proved she had one on withdrawal (from Tondu) in 1959, but she's withdrawn in BR black unicycling lion so must have had a full overhaul sometime during the 11 years, best guess around 1952 based on a 5 year boiler ticket extended by 2 years running out being the reason for withdrawal.  This means that the top feed boiler she was carrying at withdrawal cannot have been the same one she had in 1948, so there is some hope.  Of course, she must have originally been built in 1927 without a top feed, but boilers got swapped about between 57xx, 8750s, and 2721s over time.

 

No rush, though, especially if you are all packed up for the move to Feeling Foul.  I can change the number if it turns out that she had a top feed in '48, assuming I can find a definite 57xx at Tondu during the 1948-58 nominal period of the layout that didn't!

 

Ian, I will be posting the odd photo when there's something to show,  As said I've started carving off the tank top pipes with a modelling knife, and the actual top feed will by removed with a slitting disk and the stub filed off.  The side pipes, which are inside covers and bigger, will probably also be taken off in this way.  The removal of the surplus plumbing and top feed cover is probably not going to be that difficult; the onerous part of the job will, I expect, be the filing, filling, sanding, polishing, and general 'making good' of the damaged carved up surfaces.  It'll make an interesting comparison with your projected project using the tank top of a 2721; the challenge for you will be hiding the join...

 

I'm going to take another punt on livery, 1948 BR unlined green with 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' tank side lettering in Egyptian Serif, unless I can find definitive information that she didn't carry the livery, as this is a livery not currently represented on the layout.  The repaint may help hide some of the damage!  She'll make a nice partner for (and comparison with) 5756, which is pure RTR current production Bachmann OOB except for renumbering and a bit of weathering.

 

The butchery is only part of the story of course.  The body I am going to be using was described on 'Bay as a Bachmann, in which case it is a very early version.  Numbered as 5775 in BR black livery, it may well be a Replica or even Mainline product, and there are significant differences from the current Bachmann tooling.  Buffers are not as well shaped and will have to be replaced, and there are moulded cab handrails.  There is no backhead detail but as the chassis to be used has this, the finished loco will have full cab detail.  Biggest problem is that there are no bunker hooks, and these are a pain to get right and all in line, and draw attention to themselves if they are not perfect.

 

So, as well as the surgery, this will be the story of upgrading an older model to something a bit closer to current RTR standards.  It will not take place with any speed or urgency, as in any case the chassis to by used is currently hard at work beneath a 'Limbach' 94xx and will not be available until that loco is replaced by the new Bachmann 94xx, so next May earliest.  It commends itself as the sort of thing that can be picked up whenever I'm in the mood, and done on a tray while watching tv.  But it'll get done by and by, and there will be postings, some with photos, when anything exciting happens.

 

A concurrent project is 6762, which is much less work.  I have no idea what a 6750 with no vacuum brakes was doing at Tondu, yard pilot work presumably, but she was delivered new to the shed in 1943 and transferred to Swansea Upper Bank in '55.  The work is merely repainting in black, renumbering, removing the lever reverse, removing the vacuum bags and filing off the vacuum pipes.  The model is another 'Bay 'bargain', current spec Bachmann 8750 4612 in unlined green 'GREAT WESTERN' livery with polished safety valve cover.  6762's livery on delivery must have been austerity black with G W R initials, Swindon style as opposed to the 'grotesque' script applied at Caerphilly 1942-5, another livery box ticked and a nice comparison with 9649, delivered new 1946 in unlined green with the G W R initials.

 

Watch this space...

[Marshall5]

Why are you removing the "lever reverse" from 6762? .... Or am I missing something?

Cheers,

Ray.

[timbowilts]

Well that was a waste of time! Not surprisingly, given the number of locos involved, the RCTS tome doesn’t list boiler changes for 57xxs!

There is a photo of 5707 in Pannier Papers #3, dated October 1958. It shows 5707 at Canton shed, allegedly on its way to Swindon for withdrawal. It is in unlined black with the early BR emblem and is fitted with a top-feed fitted boiler.

Sorry I can’t be of more help

Tim T

[Miss Prism]

There's a limit to what information the RCTS volumes can carry, even if the information was available. RCTS does list significant boiler events (saddle to pannier, superheating), but these are not applicable to the Collett era. If the RCTS volumes listed all the boiler changes, they would be ten times the size. From a Swindon point of view, it really was not significant whether a loco went out with a topfeed boiler or a backfeed one after a works visit.

 

For large express/high mileage locos, we know that major shopping tended to be 'every two or three years'. For the lesser/low mileage locos, our knowledge of shopping intervals is not good.

 

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

There's a limit to what information the RCTS volumes can carry, even if the information was available. RCTS does list significant boiler events (saddle to pannier, superheating), but these are not applicable to the Collett era. If the RCTS volumes listed all the boiler changes, they would be ten times the size. From a Swindon point of view, it really was not significant whether a loco went out with a topfeed boiler or a backfeed one after a works visit.

 

For large express/high mileage locos, we know that major shopping tended to be 'every two or three years'. For the lesser/low mileage locos, our knowledge of shopping intervals is not good.

 

 

Probably shows how "dated"* they are compared to the LNER, LMS and BR RCTS books (and Yeadon's LNER series). Most of that sort of information is included in the more modern books. Maybe they will revisit the GWR after they have finished the LMS, but that will probably take years.

 

 

*Yes I know most of them were published in the 1950s and '60s

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

15 hours ago, Marshall5 said:

Why are you removing the "lever reverse" from 6762? .... Or am I missing something?

Cheers,

Ray.

 

No, Ray, you're not missing something, but I am.  6750s didn't have steam reverse as I thought they did. and 6762's lever will stay where it is!

 

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

That's actually quite a bit of a help, Tim.  There is no such thing as knowing too much!  If 5707 was photographed at Canton in 1958 with a unicycling lion and a top feed, she is very unlikely to have carried the early 1948 BR livery.  This theory is predicated on locos having boiler changes about every 7 years, as the certificates expire after 5 but a 2 year extension can be, and normally is on railway locos, granted after an official inspection and hydraulic test.  After 7 years, the boiler must be fully overhauled and as this takes about 2 weeks longer than the rest of the loco, a different already overhauled and certificated  boiler from a pool of suitable ones. is fitted to get her back into traffic earning money and stop her blocking workshop bays costing money.  If, as is probable, 5707 was withdrawn because her boiler certificate had expired and the cost of a full overhaul was not considered justifiable, this suggests her last full overhaul being in 1951, when the black livery and unicycling lion would have been applied.

 

This puts my 1948 BR green livery in serious doubt.  If we extend the 7 year period back from 1951, we are in 1943/4 allowing for the time the overhauls actually took place, and this means austerity G W R initials livery, the same as 6762 but if the work was done at Caerphilly then the initials would be in the 'grotesque' script.  5707 built 1927, assume boiler changes 1934, 1941, which leaves a discrepancy but the loco could have spent time in store or awaiting workshop space that would account for some of it.  

 

None of which prevents 5707 carrying a boiler with no top feed in the 1941/3/4-1951 period. The information simply isn't available, so I am going to continue with my top feed removal.  I've cut the body already, so the die is cast!  Should further info come to light (Johnster is going to investigate RCTS), I will change the number to a suitable Tondu loco if necessary.  If one is not available, I will invoke my '10% rule'.  Which is as follows; Tondu had an allocation of about 50 locos varying over time to work traffic on 5 branch lines plus some main line work.  Cwmdimbath represents another branch to cater for, so the shed needs about 5 more locos than were ever there.  A pannier without a top feed could be justified on that basis.

 

As could a few other things, like a Taff A or a Rhymney R, both of which I have unfinished kits for, but there are plenty of other priorities and neither of these classes were ever allocated to Tondu.  They may well have appeared at Tondu yard on workings from elsewhere, and Treherbert locos certainly worked through Tondu from the Maesteg direction, but the likelihood of them penetrating into the hinterland, Ogmore Vale, Blaengarw, etc, is low and it feels too much like pushing Rule 1 beyond where I am happy with it.  We already have an occasional 116 excursion, which is past my period.

[The Johnster]

 A cruel expose of the savagery that has been inflicted on poor 5707's tank tops and sides; so far, more cutting and filling is to come!  The instruments of torture, which Torquemada would have approved of (nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition) were a craft knife, followed by minidrill sander, followed by a minidrill polisher.  Most of what had to go is gone, and the next task is general de-burring and cleaning up.  Then we'll assess the situation and probably have to start again, and maybe again, until I'm happy with it...  I've damaged the rear lifting ring on the LH tank top, and this will have to be replaced; I'm sure somebody does them.  But if 5707 has a nice retrofit lifting ring, all the other rings will have to be replaced as well, and then all the other locos will want them...

 

I've scratched a spectacle plate glass as well, but this is no biggy as I can replace this with Glue'n'Glaze.  Filling to make good the hole left by the top feed casing will be Milliput, and this will be used for general filling elsewhere.  The making good of damaged surfaces should bring the top feed removal part of the exercise to an end, but the loco still needs a good bit of working up in other respects.  Re-glazing as mentioned, new buffers and lamp irons, real coal, a crew, and bunker hooks for a start.

[tomparryharry]

Looks good old chap. Remember to change the profile 'teat' on the dome. The original came about because when 7714 was measured up at Bridgnorth, the dome had a temporary fitting to hold the dome in place, hence the odd shape. Some other locomotives had a lubricator on the dome, but by and large the lubricator was in the cab, as is your 2721.

 

Happy modelling,

Ian.

[Miss Prism]

23 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

Some other locomotives had a lubricator on the dome, but by and large the lubricator was in the cab

 

Is there a known set of 'lubricator-on-dome' 57xx locos? (Lubricator on dome seems to be standard for pre-57xx classes.)

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Miss Prism

[tomparryharry]

7 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Is there a known set of 'lubricator-on-dome' 57xx locos? (Lubricator on dome seems to be standard for pre-57xx classes.)

 

 

 

I don't know off-hand, but I'll have a look. It was well known at Bridgnorth that the teat on 7714 migrated to the mainline model, but I'm pretty sure that prior to that, some locomotives certainly had dome displacement lubricators. More investigation required!

 

Ian.

[tomparryharry]

having had a quick google, I can't immediately see any dome lubricators, especially on the 57xx series. I guess we need to throw the question out to the wider audience, to see what transpires. 

 

Have a great weekend, folks.

Ian.

[The Johnster]

Off comes her nipple then.  

 

And then I'll remove 5707's...

 

Interesting that this seems to have originated on 7714 at Bridgnorth as the original Mainline example, as the first Mainline was the SVR's other pannier, 5764!  I can't find 

 

The concurrent project, 6762, has progressed to the extent of being sprayed black and has lost it's identity as 4612.  The vac pipes still need removal, but she is ready for the transfers.  Now, where have I put my HMRS GW loco insignia sheet?

[Steamport Southport]

Wasn't 7714 still in a dismantled state until the early 1990s?

 

Bought for spares for 5764 and was due to be scrapped ISTR. But they found it was in better condition than the other one - 3612, which was scrapped instead.

 

 

 

Jason

[tomparryharry]

Yes Jason, I think you're right. I well remember looking at the sad remains of 3612, and thinking 'bloody hell', what a waste. Just a little while later, I craned out 9629 outside the Holiday Inn, Cardiff. Luckily, it's all steel and replaceable. A lot of 3612 lives on in other locomotives, about 20-odd by my reckoning. The time is approaching ever closer when a brand-new batch of 8750 panniers will be built. The numbers 9683-9699 are still vacant.....

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[The Johnster]

Little bit of progress this evening.  The mess on the tanks has been cleaned up a bit, though the photo makes it look worse, but I have taken Ian's advice about the teat and it's aureola on the dome.  I removed the whole thing with a grinding tool in the minidrill, drilled a 0.5mm hole top dead centre or as near as I could make it by eye, and have pushed a piece of plastic rod through to represent the much smaller 'dimple' that appears to be the norm on 57xx/8750s.  I'll be filling the top feed casing hole with Milliput over the weekend, and generally plugging on with cleaning and making good.  Once the filling is done I can spray the bodyshell matt black, and see how the thing shapes up in general in terms of appearance.  I may as well put the handrail back where it belongs as well, as it is a bit vulnerable to damage in it's present state!

 

While I had the files out, I removed the vac pipes from 6762; the vac bags went last week!  Still can't find my GW loco transfers, though, and experience shows that the only way they will ever come to light is if I order a new sheet...

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by The Johnster

[tomparryharry]

Looks ok to me. The mess is something everyone knows is unavoidable. I think I've still got a Mainline body knocking about here, which survived a conversion in the Limbach period. My only 'observation' is to carve off the damaged lifting ring entirely, and make a new one. I did this once on an old Triang-Hornby 8750, but blowed if I can remember how I did it. Come to think of it, I need to make some lifting rings for my own 94xx models. Ideas time needed!

[KalKat]

Wire loops when I did an old Hornby wayyyy back

 

 

Emma

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, KalKat said:

Wire loops when I did an old Hornby wayyyy back

 

 

Emma

 

Thanks Emma, memory jogged.

[The Johnster]

So here's the current state of play; handrail replaced into it's proper position and a couple of coats of spray matt black undercoat to see how she looks.  The age of this Mainline tooled model has played to my advantage in terms of the handrail, as this should have had the jiggle to get around the top feed pipes where they run down the side of the tanks, but didn't/haven't; of course this means it's correct for a loco without a top feed.  The roof/spectacle plate, which I removed so as not to spray over the windows, is noticeably different in finish, and the look of the loco overall is very different, more like a 2721 with a full cab.  Hole needs to be filled with Milliput and painted, along with the roof/spectacle plate, then the transfers and numbers put on. I gave up looking for my HMRS loco insignia transfers which I've put somewhere safe so's I'd know where they were and ordered a new sheet.  They will, of course, reveal themselves as soon as the new sheet turns up...

 

Then there'll be a coat of brushed on matt varnish to seal the transfers, and she'll be nearly there so far as the top feed removal part of the job is concerned.  She'll still need new cab handrails and bunker hooks, and I'll be fitting my standard Rexel no.13 staple lamp irons.  Final lily-gilding will be a Modelu crew and some real coal, maybe some Springside fire irons to draw attention away from the imperfections in the finish, and of course this is a loco that apparently had it's last overhaul in 1950/1, so by 1948, the beginning of my period, she'll have been in G W R austerity black since 1943/4, so she needs to be fairly heavily weathered.  The spray that has found it's way on to the buffer beams will assist this impression.  There'll be new buffers as well; the old Mainline ones are a bit mushroomy.

 

When I've done the hole filling and one or two other bits of making good, we'll fit the chassis from 8448 to see what chopping and bodging is needed to get it to sit straight under the model and have a photo session.  This is a current spec Bachmann 57xx chassis and no doubt fits differently and will need some jiggery pokery.  If I have to destroy it's capability to be used under 8448, so be it and I'll withdraw 8448 as a Limbach and wait for the new Bachmann next May, so I'm not sure which loco will remain in service, but as 5705 is to be the permanent resident, she should take precedence.

 

 

 

 

 

. 

[The Johnster]

I was right!  A trial attempt to fit the Bachmann 57xx chassis off 8448 to this Mainline-possibly Replica-possibly early Bachmann body has resulted in having to trim the end of the keeper plate by about 1.5mm and removing the screw housing from the rear of the front buffer beam.  This has resulted in the chassis being semi-permanently affixed to 5707 by means of pound shop superglue, which can be pulled off with a bit of leverage should that ever be required.  8448 is thus withdrawn from service until it is reincarnated next May in the form of a new Bachmann RTR.

 

I has occurred to me that the current spec Bachmann buffers which are now adorning 8448's buffer beams can be used on 5707, which will run trials tomorrow and be in service as soon as the number plates and transfers are on and the weathering is done.  Apropos number plates, as the body is a BR liveried version, 5775 originally, she will have to carry a BR smokebox number to hide the moulded plate.  6762 isn't far off either, again a matter of plates, transfers, and weathering.  I replaced the spectacle plate glazing on this loco today.  I've ordered red backed number plates for both locos, but will leave the smokebox plate off 6762.