00bankrupt Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 Hi, i am very new to scene and have acquired some rolling stock in the plain grey departmental and 'Dutch' livery. However I am a little confused by some terminology. I see items termed 'departmental' or 'engineers', is this actually the same thing or are they completely different departments with different roles? Your help would be much appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 'Departmental' covered a whole range of uses and reflects the 'D' prefix to many vehicle numbers e.g DB 999950 for the HSTRC ; 'engineers' was a slightly smaller subset. However, most references to 'engineers' seem to be related to track engineering, measuring, renewing, disposing of rail, sleepers ballast. This is as it should be as Mechanical, Electrical, Electronic and Signalling Engineers are only just Engineers ; of course Structural engineers are at the peek but we had limited departmental rolling stock e.g. Viaduct and Tunnel Inspection trains Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted September 30, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 30, 2019 All engineers wagons are departmental wagons, but not all departmental wagons are engineers wagons. Barrier wagons, depot test trains etc would be classed as departmental stock - i.e. stock that is non-revenue earning, but wouldn't be used by the engineers responsible for maintaining and building the permenent way. Steven B. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 And, not all engineer’s stock relates to PWay ...... as noted above, there are ‘just engineers’, as opposed to unjust ones, with responsibilities in areas like, picking at random, traction power supply, who have had quite large fleets of vehicles in the past. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) As a general rule, P-Way and Civil Engineers Dept wagons were given ‘fishkind’ names and numbers often prefixed DB. A lot of ex revenue stock used for other duties such as RTC would be ADB. Locomotives would be Class 97 with a /power rating such as 97/2 for Type 2’s i.e. class 24 97201 and class 46 97403. Edited September 30, 2019 by Baby Deltic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Davexoc Posted September 30, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 30, 2019 20 hours ago, Bomag said: 'Departmental' covered a whole range of uses and reflects the 'D' prefix to many vehicle numbers e.g DB 999950 for the HSTRC ; 'engineers' was a slightly smaller subset. However, most references to 'engineers' seem to be related to track engineering, measuring, renewing, disposing of rail, sleepers ballast. This is as it should be as Mechanical, Electrical, Electronic and Signalling Engineers are only just Engineers ; of course Structural engineers are at the peek but we had limited departmental rolling stock e.g. Viaduct and Tunnel Inspection trains Said structural engineers though would struggle to get a peek at all their viaducts and tunnels without the ME&SE sorting out all the complicated stuff so that they could get their inspection train on-site.... Departmental also includes track circuit runners for SWB shunters, Enparts wagons, cranes, carriage pre-heating stock, and breakdown trains to name a few more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bankrupt Posted September 30, 2019 Author Share Posted September 30, 2019 Gentleman, thank you for taking the time to answer my query. However I have now passed through stages confused, bewildered and now am at flummoxed lol! i guess I will just run the wagons behind my departmental Class 08 and hope nobody notices. Thanks again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectroSoldier Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) Engineers trains and the stock used on them in all its various forms were simply that, trains used by engineers to do works,.. A spoil train is an engineers train, so is a train load of ballast in ballast laying hoppers like the Seacow. Not all the departmental trains and stock were used in engineering works. Track inspection trains, rolling workshops, test trains etc etc. A train used to test the OHLE is departmental, while the train used to put the wire up is an engineers train. The weedkiller train is departmental as there is no actual engineering works A tamper is a departmental train used in engineering works so its an engineers train. Or a train or hoppers that is loaded full of ballast and delivers that ballast to the storage yard at Crewe is a departmental train, when that exact same train (same loco same wagons) is loaded up at the same storage yard and takes the ballast to a rail relay job and delivers it to the track is then called an engineers train. Edited September 30, 2019 by ElectroSoldier Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bankrupt Posted September 30, 2019 Author Share Posted September 30, 2019 The penny may be dropping... You have all been a great help, thanks again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold daveyb Posted October 1, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 1, 2019 If you are wondering what your departmental liveried 08 can haul, then virtually anything will work as the sectors loaned and borrowed all sorts of locos (though the actual 97 numbered ones were less often lent). Is it painted grey? If yes, haul anything with a leaning towards air braked stock. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bankrupt Posted May 28, 2020 Author Share Posted May 28, 2020 Hi Davey, Thanks for the reply, my 08 is in the plain engineers grey livery! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 On 30/09/2019 at 21:58, ElectroSoldier said: ...................,., so is a train load of ballast in ballast laying hoppers like the Seacow. ....................... Would that have been train made up of Sealions and Stingrays? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted May 29, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 29, 2020 Sealion = earlier bogie hoppers, vac-braked Seacow = air/dual barked version of Sealion Stingray = Seacow with generator for providing power for lighting There was also a Walrus which was built for BR(S) and is similar to Sealion (differences to account for thrid rail?), and the Whale, which had a larger capacity. Steven B Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheatley Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 (edited) On 30/09/2019 at 13:01, Steven B said: departmental stock - i.e. stock that is non-revenue earning. This is the nub of it - anything which isn't revenue earning is departmental. The 1980s / early 90s was a fascinating period for this as there was a huge variety of purpose-built departmental stock, some of it quite old, rubbing shoulders with a lot of ex-traffic wagons, some dating back to the Big 4. There was also the '97xxx' series of locos, retained for special or large projects. All sorts of manky old tat could turn up on occasions, it depends what the job was. The Eastern Region even managed to retain unfitted vehicles into the 1990s (just). Edited May 29, 2020 by Wheatley 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Steven B said: Sealion = earlier bogie hoppers, vac-braked Seacow = air/dual barked version of Sealion Stingray = Seacow with generator for providing power for lighting There was also a Walrus which was built for BR(S) and is similar to Sealion (differences to account for thrid rail?), and the Whale, which had a larger capacity. Steven B The Walrus is a design which dates back to the L&SWR, back at the beginning of the 20th century; the company had only one source of decent ballast, at Meldon in Devon. Thus it needed large ballast wagons, capable of (relatively) high speeds, because of the distances involved; the wagons predated third-rail. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectroSoldier Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 On 28/05/2020 at 19:48, Trog said: Would that have been train made up of Sealions and Stingrays? The era you choose to model would dictate that, I just used the Seacow as an example Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Bendall Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 On 29/05/2020 at 13:36, Steven B said: Sealion = earlier bogie hoppers, vac-braked Seacow = air/dual barked version of Sealion Stingray = Seacow with generator for providing power for lighting To be pedantic, Sealion is the term for a dual-braked one, Seacow is for air-braked only with or without a vacuum pipe. Walrus were vac-braked only amongst other differences. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted June 1, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, Simon Bendall said: To be pedantic, Sealion is the term for a dual-braked one, Seacow is for air-braked only with or without a vacuum pipe. Walrus were vac-braked only amongst other differences. so were seacows vac through piped only? I did not know that... I take it whales were vac only? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 8 minutes ago, pheaton said: I take it whales were vac only? No- they were air-only. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 4 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said: The era you choose to model would dictate that, I just used the Seacow as an example I was joking quoting the wagons that were most like a Seacow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Bendall Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 hour ago, pheaton said: so were seacows vac through piped only? I take it whales were vac only? Yes, a Seacow, be it the 1980s welded ones or the small batch of 1970s riveted ones, were built with air brakes and vac pipes only. Sealion were built with both air brakes and AFI vacuum brakes. If you really want confusion when Sealion lost their vacuum brakes in the 1990s they became Seacow. Whales were built new with air brakes and stayed that way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted June 1, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 1, 2020 so was it the whale that was withdrawn because the loads were causing issues for their underframes? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Bendall Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 The Whales suffered with bogie spring and frame problems on the Meldon runs and were transferred away in due course but the vast majority made it into privatisation so not withdrawn early per se. Similarly, the BR Walrus had the same spring trouble, both types having the plateback bogies, they too were moved to other flows eventually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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